Bumper Crop of Planets Beyond Our Solar System

[3113]

Looking for that home away from home? There appears to be lotsa good real estate out there!

The 32 "exoplanets" ranged in size from five times the mass of Earth to 5-10 times the mass of Jupiter, the researchers said. They were found using a very sensitive instrument on a 3.6m telescope at the European Southern Observatory's La Silla facility in Chile. The discovery is exciting because it suggests that low-mass planets could be numerous in our galaxy.

"From [our] results, we know now that at least 40% of solar-type stars have low-mass planets. This is really important because it means that low-mass planets are everywhere, basically," explained Stephane Udry from Geneva University, Switzerland. "What's very interesting is that models are predicting them, and we are finding them; and furthermore the models are predicting even more lower-mass planets like the Earth."

Full story here.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Wow, cool. I thought it would be another hundred years before we started finding this many planets outside of our own solar system.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Finding is fine. Now, about the problem of getting there . . .

 

[TE999]

Finding is fine. Now, about the problem of getting there . . .

Not to mention who or what may be getting here from there...

 

[amicus]

I remain skeptical about finding a habitable planet outside earth, although the odds are greatly in favor of it.

I have an interest and follow the events closely and there are so many variables that I, who once thought finding another civilization was just around the corner, now feel that we may be the only intelligent life in the Universe.

One of the most recent theories involves the natural formation of 'gas giant' planets that virtually sweep any particular solar system clean of all smaller planets as it is drawn into closer orbit around its' sun.

With in the past couple of years it was announced that without the existence of our Moon, there would be no life on earth of any kind.

Instead of there being 'billions and billions' in Saganese, I tend to think any form of life may be a rarity in planetary mechanics....kinda sad, but also kinda something else...?

Amicus

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

I remain skeptical about finding a habitable planet outside earth, although the odds are greatly in favor of it.

I have an interest and follow the events closely and there are so many variables that I, who once thought finding another civilization was just around the corner, now feel that we may be the only intelligent life in the Universe.

One of the most recent theories involves the natural formation of 'gas giant' planets that virtually sweep any particular solar system clean of all smaller planets as it is drawn into closer orbit around its' sun.

With in the past couple of years it was announced that without the existence of our Moon, there would be no life on earth of any kind.

Instead of there being 'billions and billions' in Saganese, I tend to think any form of life may be a rarity in planetary mechanics....kinda sad, but also kinda something else...?

Amicus

With the amount of planets beyond our solar system it's unlikely that ours is the only one to support life. Might be rare, I'll grant you that, but even if chances were one in a trillion there's plenty of planets to favor those odds.

More advanced or less. That--I think--is the question.

 

[amicus]

With the amount of planets beyond our solar system it's unlikely that ours is the only one to support life. Might be rare, I'll grant you that, but even if chances were one in a trillion there's plenty of planets to favor those odds.

More advanced or less. That--I think--is the question.[/QUOTE]

~~~

You will find me in almost total agreement on this, Bianca, but with this caveat:

As we can 'see' these distant stars with radio telescopes, we should also be able to, 'hear' any electromagnetic signals that would indicate intelligent life forms.

Although we have only been, 'listening' for about 30 years, give or take, with the SETI programs and such, nothing has been heard.

I realize that doesn't say everything, but given distance in light years, those 30plus years indicates 30 plus light years during which we might have heard something were it there.

I am an atheist and have been forever, but the thought of man being the only intelligent species in the Universe runs a chill down my arms....

ami

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

Pagan but my Gods admit to not being perfect

I don't think we'd hear what was not on a frequency we can understand, not to mention a race more intelligent (that doesn't want to be heard) or less (that doesn't know how to be).

And besides who's to say electromagnetic is the only signal to be heard. Think entirely different advancements. There is nothing to be aligned.

We still have mysteries on earth we can't expose. Not a chance we're even close to understanding anything beyond.

You will find me in almost total agreement on this, Bianca, but with this caveat:

As we can 'see' these distant stars with radio telescopes, we should also be able to, 'hear' any electromagnetic signals that would indicate intelligent life forms.

Although we have only been, 'listening' for about 30 years, give or take, with the SETI programs and such, nothing has been heard.

I realize that doesn't say everything, but given distance in light years, those 30plus years indicates 30 plus light years during which we might have heard something were it there.

I am an atheist and have been forever, but the thought of man being the only intelligent species in the Universe runs a chill down my arms....

ami

 

[amicus]

I like your spirit, Bianca, a fighter for sure...not in disagreement necessarily, but, physics is physics, and the same laws apply throughout the Universe in terms of radio waves and propagation.

The other matter is more sinister in nature, the, 'what if' X-Files crowd will appreciate this...can you imagine the social upheaval if indeed an alien civilization were discovered via radio waves?

Amusing to consider, eh?

ami

 

[slyc_willie]

I like your spirit, Bianca, a fighter for sure...not in disagreement necessarily, but, physics is physics, and the same laws apply throughout the Universe in terms of radio waves and propagation.

The other matter is more sinister in nature, the, 'what if' X-Files crowd will appreciate this...can you imagine the social upheaval if indeed an alien civilization were discovered via radio waves?

Amusing to consider, eh?

ami

I doubt much would change. The discovery of life on other planets is one thing, but making contact with another species would require travel through space. As VM pointed out, knowing the existence of an extrasolar planet and getting there are two very different things. It could be that any nearby neighbors have already detected our own radio and TV transmissions, which we have been broadcasting for well over seventy years now. But just because they know we're here does not mean we'll ever meet.

I have no doubt that Earth-like planets will be discovered within as little as 100 light-years of us. As our technology progresses, we'll be able to scout such worlds without leaving this planet, determining atmospheric makeup and, if it is present, indigenous intelligent species which may have evolved technology to visibly affect their planet (as we have affected ours). But that's assuming technological advancement would follow our own particular path, or one close to it.

There's more than one way an intelligent species could evolve to a level of cultural and technological advancement comparable to ours. As a species, we made the choice to develop the technology we enjoy today. But that's not to say every intelligent species would do the same. The absence of radio emissions from other worlds is hardly an indication that other species don't exist.

 

[amicus]

Always a pleasure to read when you share your thoughts, Slyc, and appreciated...

I guess I am in disagreement with you about one thing; I think the world view of humanity would change were we to hear a signal of any kind from a distant solar system.

I am on the horns of an intellectual dilemma concering this issue. On one hand, I am a fan of the late Carl Sagan whose prose convinced me that there must be millions of other life forms among the billions and billions of Stars and Planets in the Universe at large. On the other hand, if we can, as I said before, see a thousand light years into the past, then if there were radio signals, we would have detected them by now, even though we are but an infant species in terms of evolutionary time spans.

I suppose I am just impatient and even wish I had a thousand years to live, hell, medical nano technology is on the verge of extending the life span of we critters, so who knows? (I hope they do it soon!)

regards...

amicus

 

[slyc_willie]

"Infant species?"

Compared to what? In the absence of the known existence of other intelligent beings from other planets, we have no one and no thing to compare ourselves to. It could be that humans are the most advanced species in this entire galaxy for all we know.

The problem with assessing the potential for life outside our solar system lies in the presumption that all intelligent life would formulate technology in the same way as we. There is no single road to take for technological advancement. But we often think ours must be the best way, considering how quickly, in the last two centuries alone, we have harnessed it.

I dare think there are numerous other ways to advance other than with our hard, scientific approach.

 

[amicus]

"Infant species?"

Compared to what? In the absence of the known existence of other intelligent beings from other planets, we have no one and no thing to compare ourselves to. It could be that humans are the most advanced species in this entire galaxy for all we know.

The problem with assessing the potential for life outside our solar system lies in the presumption that all intelligent life would formulate technology in the same way as we. There is no single road to take for technological advancement. But we often think ours must be the best way, considering how quickly, in the last two centuries alone, we have harnessed it.

I dare think there are numerous other ways to advance other than with our hard, scientific approach.

~~~

Yes, 'infant species' in comparison to the millions of years that the Dinosaurs were the dominant species on earth; we are late comers and our continued evolution is not a given, only a possibility.

If memory serves regarding various programs, earth has supported 'life' for about half its' existence, about four and a half billion years. We can determine the 'age' of various Stars through spectrographic(sp) analysis and there are many that began life at about the same time earth did.

As I tried to say to Bianca, physics is physics and math is math, regardless of where one happens to be in the Universe, thus, I deduce, the technology we developed must be almost identical where ever intelligent species arise.

I have no horse in this race and I try my best not to let 'belief' enter my words, thus I try to offer reason and rationality as a means to understand reality.

I will admit that I am puzzled over the lack of signs of alien life elsewhere; from what I have learned, it should be popping up everywhere, given the fullness of time. And...there should be many species at or beyond our level of intelligence.

Do I err?

ami

 

[slyc_willie]

~~~

Yes, 'infant species' in comparison to the millions of years that the Dinosaurs were the dominant species on earth; we are late comers and our continued evolution is not a given, only a possibility.

If memory serves regarding various programs, earth has supported 'life' for about half its' existence, about four and a half billion years. We can determine the 'age' of various Stars through spectrographic(sp) analysis and there are many that began life at about the same time earth did.

As I tried to say to Bianca, physics is physics and math is math, regardless of where one happens to be in the Universe, thus, I deduce, the technology we developed must be almost identical where ever intelligent species arise.

I have no horse in this race and I try my best not to let 'belief' enter my words, thus I try to offer reason and rationality as a means to understand reality.

I will admit that I am puzzled over the lack of signs of alien life elsewhere; from what I have learned, it should be popping up everywhere, given the fullness of time. And...there should be many species at or beyond our level of intelligence.

Do I err?

ami

Very true, life has existed on Earth for millions of years. But that life, until recently, has been mainly animalistic, with little or no advancement in the way of cognitive thinking. But it's still a stretch to say humanity is an infant species.

There is no scale to measure how or how fast technological advancement is supposed to develop in a species. Without that scale, we cannot compare ourselves to any other intelligent species out there.

It's human arrogance to presume our development is the only way to evolve.

 

[jacks4u]

.
.
.
I will admit that I am puzzled over the lack of signs of alien life elsewhere; from what I have learned, it should be popping up everywhere, given the fullness of time. And...there should be many species at or beyond our level of intelligence.

Do I err?

ami

Ami,

The way I see it is as slyc noted, there are potentially uncountable paths that technology could develop towards. If Al. Bell hadn't 'invented' the telephone? or if louis pasture hadn't invented a means of preserving (pasteurizing) milk... or even if no one ever bothered to investigate why an apple falls from the tree, instead of just floating near the stem...

In short, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.

But you are right about radio transmissions, except, it's more than 75 years. 75 light years. more or less. but think of the television for a moment. moving images and sound transmitted through space. but many of the first TV transmissions were of war - WWII and later, Korean and Vietnam, and others. Our TV broadcasts, were they successfully received and decoded, would not be the best foot we could put forward. If I were another species, perhaps one that enjoyed relative peace and civility, I wouldn't have anything to do with us.


Jacks

 

[amicus]

Ami,

The way I see it is as slyc noted, there are potentially uncountable paths that technology could develop towards. If Al. Bell hadn't 'invented' the telephone? or if louis pasture hadn't invented a means of preserving (pasteurizing) milk... or even if no one ever bothered to investigate why an apple falls from the tree, instead of just floating near the stem...

In short, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.

But you are right about radio transmissions, except, it's more than 75 years. 75 light years. more or less. but think of the television for a moment. moving images and sound transmitted through space. but many of the first TV transmissions were of war - WWII and later, Korean and Vietnam, and others. Our TV broadcasts, were they successfully received and decoded, would not be the best foot we could put forward. If I were another species, perhaps one that enjoyed relative peace and civility, I wouldn't have anything to do with us.


Jacks

I had vowed to 'pull the plug' tonight, considering how many times my SN appears on various threads and probably infuriating all those who still have me visible, but your thoughts intrigue me and I am compelled to reply.

Slyc said it was human arrogance to assume that all civilizations would develope upon the same lines as ours. Perhaps...

On a planet of similar mass as earth, the force of gravity would be almost identical and although the fruit may not be an apple or a fruit at all, but the discovery of gravity would follow the precise lines as the occurred here, by definition.

The logical progression of discovery that led to Alexander Graham Bell, could only occur in one way; the step by step understanding of electrical current, whether it began with a twitching frog's leg or something else.

I read somewhere that the principles of lead acid batteries was known in ancient times, the Egyptians, if memory serves.

Those basic principle too would be identical as chemical reactions between elements is a 'constant' anywhere in the Universe.

I did not intend my assertion to be taken as 'arrogance,' merely logic, which also is a constant for any creature when confronting reality and acquiring knowledge.

Alien beings evolving on different planets with a different mixture of gaseous chemicals or even in water, would have, science tells me, followed the same pattern of survival of the fittest in a given environment, saying that evolution too, is a constant, just as it is with the birth and death of stars and entire galaxies; they all remain identical regardless of the location in the Universe.

Sagan used Adolph Hitler's opening of the 1936 Olympics in Berlin (memory), as the first television broadcast that traveled through space, was received, amplified and return to earth. I thought that was a bit sensationalistic and I suggest that early Marconi transmissions over a century ago would be more likely the first to travel through space, and offered the opportunity for reception.

If the upright bipedal, big brained nature of man survived as the fittest, given the environment, I suspect something similar, logically, would develope elsewhere at its own rate.

I am, of course, speculating and if I err at any level of that speculation in either reason, rationality or logic, I trust it will be pointed out.

Insofar as your political musings at the close of your post, I prefer to remain silent with but a suggestion that perhaps man is not as repulsive as you suggest.

Amicus

 

[mynameisben]

I kinda lost interest in all this after they kicked Pluto out of the planets. Poor, poor Pluto. Why did they have to pick on the tiniest planet? And if they can kick Pluto out, what's to stop them from kicking Earth out of the planets, too? Not a damn nothing, that's what. And if they do kick Earth out, then where are we all going to live?

 

[amicus]

Hello, mynameisben...I have a son named Ben, but I blame you and others for keeping me up so late with such interesting observations.

Yes, poor Pluto, and a whole generation, more actually, that would answer, 'nine', if asked how many planets in our system.

Is it the Kuiper Belt? Trusting memory again, but Pluto has been found to be but one and not the largest of those objects captured by our sun and continue to revolve around it. By planetary definitions, newly revised, heh, so much for Pluto!

Nice to have your light-hearted commentary, welcome to the fray...

amicus

 

[Verdad]

just for fun...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_search.png

 

[TxRad]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_search.png

I always thought there should have been a foot coming down in that frame.

 

[jacks4u]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_search.png

lol!

The exact point I was trying to make!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Lord Rayleigh said: "The universe may be not only stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine."

Meaning: nature is much more inventive than we are. There are things out there we simply can't conceive of yet, processes and possibilities that are literally beyond our comprehension. The conditions that led to human intelligence on this planet--from the sugar backbone of DNA to carbon-based proteins made of a specific type of amino acid; the need for social interaction as a survival mechanism and the violent competition that it bred; the use of language and the type of intelligence language engendered; even the reliance on light as the main driving force in chemical evolution--may well not exist on other planets.

What if they communicate by chemical signals? Would they be likely to develop electromagnetic broadcasting? What if they're telepathic? Do telepaths need radio and TV? What if they have no ozone layer to bounce EM signals off of? Then radio would be rather worthless to them, a kind of high-priced tin-can telephone. What if they communicate by emitting light like some deep sea terrestrial fish? Again, they'd have no need for radio and EM communications. What if they don't communicate at all? Maybe each entity is a perfect world unto itself, without need for communication. Would we even recognize them as alive?

I could envision creatures like giant plasmic jellyfish swimming through the ammonia-methane environment of Jupiter, living off the planet's immense electromagnetic fields rather than sunlight, maybe communicating in bursts of static discharge we'd never perceive. I could envision solid-state, semi-conductor brains on Mercury, sulfur based life-forms on Venus, minds that work not on electrical energy, but by interference of standing compression waves.

If we can imagine it, chances are the universe has tried it.

By the way, regarding the lack of intelligent EM signals from space: Someone recently pointed out that the practice of broadcasting is now in decline as cable and fiber-optic take over. Broadcasting is a very energy-intensive and inefficient means of communication compared to dedicated lines, and one that was necessitated because of humans' weird proclivities regarding the balance between private and social: we all want to stay connected, but we all want to live apart. It could be that broadcasting is a Human anomaly that other intelligences might not engage in at all.

It's a big universe, and if it's really infinite, then everything must happen in it sooner or later.

 

[R. Richard]

Some years ago, there was a government funded project with the mission of sending radio signals into space to tell the rest of the universe, "We are here!" [I used to work at JPL and I have access to some unusual information.]

Not too long after the project was started, some military types came to JPL and told the scientists, "We in the military use simulations to attempt to decide the probable outcomes of some of our operations. The simulations are quite good and we are able to apply them to known, historical battles and predict outcomes. Based upon the number of type M stars and data gathered from European or Arab exploration of Africa and the south seas islands, we have estimated that there might be N civilizations on planets within M light years. At least some of the civilizations would be pre-radio. Of the civilizations that could receive our transmissions, at least a couple of them would try to invade and conquer us. What do you intend to do when the alien invaders show up?"

Well, JPL had a ready answer. They shut the project down and then started at least two other projects, with the same project name, so that people wouldn't realize the extent of their stupidity.

The best hope for Earth is that the people running advanced civilization planets are as stupid as the people running Earth governments.

 

[PREMwriter]

This is where the logical time line thinking goes crazy. What would it be like if another planet did look and act like ours. The logical progression of a dominant species somewhat like ours, could very well have developed, but what if they are a thousand, or a million years ahead of us. Their abilities would be far greater at having discovered space and time travel. Even telepathic travel could be possible for them. So judging the development of solar systems to our own is one thing, but a system that developed much sooner than ours, could hold more possibilties for life such as our own, or close to it, but much more advanced.

 

[amicus]

Lord Rayleigh said: "The universe may be not only stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine."

Meaning: nature is much more inventive than we are. There are things out there we simply can't conceive of yet, processes and possibilities that are literally beyond our comprehension. The conditions that led to human intelligence on this planet--from the sugar backbone of DNA to carbon-based proteins made of a specific type of amino acid; the need for social interaction as a survival mechanism and the violent competition that it bred; the use of language and the type of intelligence language engendered; even the reliance on light as the main driving force in chemical evolution--may well not exist on other planets.

What if they communicate by chemical signals? Would they be likely to develop electromagnetic broadcasting? What if they're telepathic? Do telepaths need radio and TV? What if they have no ozone layer to bounce EM signals off of? Then radio would be rather worthless to them, a kind of high-priced tin-can telephone. What if they communicate by emitting light like some deep sea terrestrial fish? Again, they'd have no need for radio and EM communications. What if they don't communicate at all? Maybe each entity is a perfect world unto itself, without need for communication. Would we even recognize them as alive?

I could envision creatures like giant plasmic jellyfish swimming through the ammonia-methane environment of Jupiter, living off the planet's immense electromagnetic fields rather than sunlight, maybe communicating in bursts of static discharge we'd never perceive. I could envision solid-state, semi-conductor brains on Mercury, sulfur based life-forms on Venus, minds that work not on electrical energy, but by interference of standing compression waves.

If we can imagine it, chances are the universe has tried it.

By the way, regarding the lack of intelligent EM signals from space: Someone recently pointed out that the practice of broadcasting is now in decline as cable and fiber-optic take over. Broadcasting is a very energy-intensive and inefficient means of communication compared to dedicated lines, and one that was necessitated because of humans' weird proclivities regarding the balance between private and social: we all want to stay connected, but we all want to live apart. It could be that broadcasting is a Human anomaly that other intelligences might not engage in at all.

It's a big universe, and if it's really infinite, then everything must happen in it sooner or later.[/QUOTE]

~~~

Dr. Mab... I am always pleasantly surprised to find others with extensive knowledge of many things and this forum is perhaps the best of all. I don't even mind being challenged concerning my assertions as I can usually learn something in the exchange of thoughts.

I don't question that nature and evolution have created astounding things that continue to amaze me personally and extends the general knowledge of man in all directions.

Aside from the origin of the Universe, be it 'big bang theory' or something else, I postulate that sooner or later, the mind of man will comprehend the process.

I want to pause at this point and ask that anyone who reads this consider the advances made since and because of Charles Darwin and his contemporaries. And, to put my own political slant on things, as you did, since the Industrial Revolution and because of the Free Market, a transition from Agricultural to Industrial and now to Service economies that thrive on innovation and efficiency.

There is something else I want to emphasize also and that is the quantum leap in information availability since the computer age began. This past half century has been the most amazing time in human history in my opinion.

You pose a myriad of most interesting questions, Mab, and most of them well founded. But I also watched the "Future Life" series on television and I am aware of all the 'possibilities' addressed in the program.

One thing, without an Ionized upper atmosphere to bounce radio waves off, there would be no life on such a planet as everything would be sterilized by solar and cosmic radiation. The same holds true concerning the molten metal core of Earth, without a magnetic shield from solar radiation, the planet would be sterile.

Telepathic powers are an interesting science fiction notion, exploited best by Ann McCaffrey in her, "Rowan" series, but I fear it is like Star Trek and Warp Drive, as they both violate certain laws of physics that remain constant.

Old style broadcasting is in decline, yes, but has been replaced by satellite communications in the UHF band, which is still EM.

I also contend that 'communications' between groups of people, even though planet bound, will occur regardless, and that the most logical means would again be through radio waves and electricity.

I continue to be amazed at the discoveries of science, the 'tube worms' and other life forms thriving in near boiling, toxic water at the bottom of the sea with nary a single ray of sunlight. Then, too, life existing in the frigid north and in volcanic salt pools in Yellowstone. I can only gather from that and much more, that life can and will exist and adapt in practically any environment and is, above all, tenacious in clinging to that life.

I had an entirely different response nearly complete a few hours ago, went to search for something, ah, "Voyager One", I think, that is speeding through the Heliosphere and still communicating with earth with about a billionth of a watt in received energy, but I clicked the wrong button and lost it all.

Amicus