"Broken Britain..."

[DesertPirate]

Wiki and other sources suggest that the rate of teenage pregnancies in the developed world is led by the US with the UK next worst on half the US's figure per 1000 population.

Og

The kids go through the public school system being taught that there are no consequences for any action. What would anyone expect?

 

[freshface]

(But hey, the current world recession was triggered by the unregulated anarchy of the US banking/mortgage system, which allowed sub-prime to happen... Ach, sorry, I digress...)

But, re teen pregnancies, does ANYONE know what the real US rate actually is? The published rate is for births which either occurred in the formal healthcare system, or were registered by the parents, or both. I draw your attention to two facts:

1. A significant proportion of the US population consists of illegal immigrants. By definition, nobody actually KNOWS how many there are.

2. Healthcare in the USA is notoriously virtually a private sector monopoly. It seems reasonable to assume that a significant proportion of illegal immigrants, like many of the rest of the US poor, have no health insurance. It seems also reasonable to assume that many teen and other pregnancies amongst illegal immigrants are not registered, for the process of appearing in a legal record would reveal the illegality of their presence in the country.

So, can anyone honestly put their hand on their heart, and tell me what the REAL rate of teen pregnancies in the USA is? At least the public nature of UK healthcare provision means that we know the accurate figure here! And I completely accept, for the reasons I outlined above, that it is disgracefully high.

So 'Amicus', or any US author, have you an answer?

Actually, you're ignoring a few key points. An illegal immigrant absolutely wants to give birth in a hospital, because the baby comes out with a birth certificate making it a US citizen. I'm not an immigration expert, but hospitals don't report to the Immigration authorities. Poor infants receive Medicaid, so even if the state will not allow the mother to receive medical benefits related to the delivery, Medicaid will cover the infant.

Also, I suspect that the illegal immigrants are not a large source of teen parents. If the girl is illegal, part of her childhood was spent in moving with her family from where they came from to the US. These families tend to work hard and stick together. The girls don't have a lot of time and opportunity to get pregnant.

Teen pregnancy rates are disgracefully high, but not because of unregistered births.

 

[cloudy]

1. A significant proportion of the US population consists of illegal immigrants. By definition, nobody actually KNOWS how many there are.

I don't think it's as "significant" as you assume it is. The number is growing, yes, but I'd wager that there's not any more illegal immigrants here than there is in other "desirable" countries, such as England.

2. Healthcare in the USA is notoriously virtually a private sector monopoly. It seems reasonable to assume that a significant proportion of illegal immigrants, like many of the rest of the US poor, have no health insurance. It seems also reasonable to assume that many teen and other pregnancies amongst illegal immigrants are not registered, for the process of appearing in a legal record would reveal the illegality of their presence in the country.

I don't think that's a correct assumption.

No matter how private our healthcare is (and I agree, it needs a major overhaul), public hospitals cannot deny care to anyone, illegal, indigent, or otherwise. Also, if a mother has a child here, that child is a US citizen, and thus gives the parent the right to be here, negating your last bit of reasoning.

 

[Guest]

The kids go through the public school system being taught that there are no consequences for any action. What would anyone expect?

Discipline, and education, should begin in the home.

You think a high school can "fix" a 16-year-old who's done whatever the hell he's wanted to since he was born?

I find it absolutely amazing that some people always blame everything that is wrong with children today on public schools, an institution that children attend for only 7 hours a day. And none in the summer.

What about parents? Grandparents? Extended family? Babysitters?

Isn't anyone else supposed to exert influence over their children? They're not in school for the majority of their life.

 

[oggbashan]

Discipline, and education, should begin in the home.

You think a high school can "fix" a 16-year-old who's done whatever the hell he's wanted to since he was born?

I find it absolutely amazing that some people always blame everything that is wrong with children today on public schools, an institution that children attend for only 7 hours a day. And none in the summer.

What about parents? Grandparents? Extended family? Babysitters?

Isn't anyone else supposed to exert influence over their children? They're not in school for the majority of their life.

That is the really worrying thing about the story that started this thread. The children wouldn't have been named, spread all over newspaper front pages and on national TV but for their parents waiving their children's right to privacy. My impression is that the parents wanted to make money from the story and were celebrating the event instead of regretting it.

Og

 

[sr71plt]

I find it absolutely amazing that some people always blame everything that is wrong with children today on public schools, an institution that children attend for only 7 hours a day. And none in the summer.

Well, ya gotta find someone to blame other than yourself, don't cha? Isn't that what most of this ragging on our elected representives as all about?

 

[birdie87]

since when did this become america vs britian????

i put the problem down to general attitudes in britain yes. i know a guy who had a kid at thirteen, with a fifteen year old girl. by 18 he had three kids.

but this guy had had a messed up childhood. his dad was a bit mentally unstable and some really unfortunate stuff happened in his family. he's never had repsonsible adults or anybody as a father figure, his fourty odd year old dad is more of a kid than him. it makes me sad yeah.

For me i think there needs to be less stigma attatched to sex in the UK. My father always goes on about english stiff upper lip bollox. I like the lack of over-the-topness about the birtish but at the same time it's a little extreme. i always feel depressed when i go travelling and get back to the UK!!! it's so stifling the way people are. i guess it's victorian values and stuff outtdated still lingers in the subconscious though never consciously named. but it bugs the hell outta me. i didn't know shit about sex and was well nervous about stuff like the when i was growing up, it's just so awkward. yeah the pregnancy rate is high in the UK, i'm not so sure whether that means that the younger generation in the rest of europe have sex any less!?!?!?!?!

we're all human, it's going to happen with kids, it's just a matter of whether it's hidden or people are mature about it. i think kids get a hard time by society in britain, a really hard time. people are constantly blaming the kids for the degeneration of society but who's to blame???? i went to a really deprived school, although i wasn't deprived and didn't live in a deprived area myself.

one thing that i think is missing from society these days in britain is a sense of community. i saw it in a small village i went to in indiana, in tunisia, the slums of soweto in south africa..... but i don't see it much here. except perhaps in some council estates.

the problem with the welfare state is it takes away the values and mentality of responsibility for each other that should be in place. people live in houses for years and barely know their neighbors except perhaps saying hi sometimes. people want to mind their own buisiness. it's this kind of psychological closing off that effects things a lot, people aren't as open or don't communicate in britain as much, as well as being over cynical. i really wasn't surprised when that report came out about british kids being the unhappiest.


but at the same time.... we have to get things into perspective. i get sick and fucking tired of british people constantly moaning about how this country is down in the gutter.... yeah we're in a recession.... it's not anybodies going to starve to death!!!! oh no.... if shit gets really bad i'll have to live in council housing!!!!!! lol. i've been to some really poor places, not just looked at but lived in and spent time in and whatever anybody says we are fucking lucky.

i'd prefer to have the welfare state and have a few problems from that and peoples lazyness than not have it at all. i'd prefer to have my taxes wasted on a few illegal immigrants taking advantage of the system.... but at the end of the day be able to help out with children in war torn countries and families in serious dyer situations. we have to get things into perspective. i hear people saying ohhhh its not safe on the streets anymore. yeah it fucking is!!!! go to a real dangerous place and you'll see what's problematic. i feel safer in britain than nearly any other country on the planet. why are all these people trying to get to countries like this, because it's free it's a beautifull thing. because we are lucky!!! sometimes we don't see the opportunity put on our plate.

when people complain about teenagers and gangs and stuff in britain i think to myself..... yeah it's pretty stupid. no one needs to be a criminal to survive, and when people talk like that when they aren't really in sucha bad situation it's pretty pathetic. again i've seen both sides. i've met people in other countries who HAVE TO commit crime every day just to get by. they cannot feed their family without it. and none of it was their fault. and they don't have the opportunities we have. so which problem would we prefer, being in sucha shit situation that crime is committed and murders with such regularity because of a need to survive that it's never made into an issue on the news. OR the issue that teenagers feel so lost and unfullfilled that they get into trouble a worse problem?

we can't keep blaming this on teachers or parents or kids or immigrents or muslims or whatever. there is a bit of a void a lack of soul in the uk, but thats something else entirely to look into. the stuff we complain about is great, because of the fact we are complaining about such things!

rant over.... haha i'm a bit drunk. sorry about the lack of sense being made here.

 

[amicus]

Discipline, and education, should begin in the home.

You think a high school can "fix" a 16-year-old who's done whatever the hell he's wanted to since he was born?

I find it absolutely amazing that some people always blame everything that is wrong with children today on public schools, an institution that children attend for only 7 hours a day. And none in the summer.

What about parents? Grandparents? Extended family? Babysitters?

Isn't anyone else supposed to exert influence over their children? They're not in school for the majority of their life.[/

QUOTE]

~~~~~~~

SweetSubsarahh has two irons in the fire here, a defense of public schools and a defense of progressive liberal morality.

The public schools with their liberal progressive teachers and administrators have had a generation of 'sex education' to play with, which was purported to be the answer to teen age pregnancies if only every school every where would provide the information, the condoms, the access to school nurses, the abortion counseling to homosexuality and lesbianism being accepted/tolerated as simply an alternative sexual identity.

It didn't work. Fess up, at least to salve your own conscience, it did not act to slow the rate of either teen pregnancies or the spread of STD's.

80 percent of the population of US prisons are from single parent, read that, single mom, families.(you will have to read Ann Coulter's book for the documentation, or find it elsewhere), as a result of the half century long feminist movement where men are considered obsolete and the nanny state becomes the father, provider, disciplinarian, with the WIC programs, food stamps, HUD, section 8 housing, free legal service to hound 'deadbeat dads', who may not even know they fathered a child, just as the single mom may not know who the father is, as this child in GB.

"...What about parents? Grandparents? Extended family? Babysitters?..."

What parents, Sweets? From the families the feminists destroyed and ignored? The left has castigated the 'old fashioned' concept of the 'nuclear familty', as patriarchal and obsolete and now you cry out for their help?

The left laughs heartily at the, 'just say no', abstinence of religious cultures and pro life groups.

Euope is often touted on this forum and throughout the media as the ideal in moral promiscuity, with the approved prostitution in some countries, the relaxed drug laws in others, the adoption of a 'nanny state' mentality in most if not all Euro nations. And of course, the USA is the bad guy in all scenario's, as we are so far behind in socialized medicine, liberal work ethics and the exaltation of the 'workers', over the owners and managers of what is left of private enterprise in Europe as most has been nationalized or subsidized.

What you don't like to hear and what the heavy weights on the forum, the really entrenched left, is the "Amicus Show". reminding you that for the past thirty years those of the moral right have been telling you what was going to happen in the future.

The future is now.

How do you like it?

This is a bed you liberal folks made. MIght be time to at least change the sheets?

Amicus...

 

[sr71plt]

since when did this become america vs britian????

Umm, is this a trick question? It became America vs. Britain with the initial posting. You need to understand that Amicus can't see past his nose. He was clearly pointing to a mess (the specific mess wasn't all that important) in Britain foreshadowing what will happen in America if Americans do (shudder) liberal things. (Don't ask me how he makes these connections--I'm just reporting his posting themes/line of reasoning.)

 

[amicus]

birdie87
Virgin

Thank you and welcome to the forum.

I am guessing that the '87' is the year of your birth and that you are female. I have guessed wrong before but I still partake.

You wrote a great deal about a great many things that are seldom written about or even referred to and I find that refreshing.

What I will say, assuming that your birth date, as I suspect is 1987, that I have found many, many young people all across the western world who express similar points of view on a host of subjects. Many in Australia, more in England and handfull in Scotland, only one or two in Russia or China.

Oh, and I should certainly include Canada, even ahead or neck and neck with the Ozzies.

Someone on this forum mentioned that she had three children by three different fathers and remained a single mother. That is not unusual anymore, I know, personally, a dozen or so of these women and they are all fine people, struggling to make ends meet and provide for their children.

It does, however, reflect a changing moral atmosophere, all over the world as children are raised in fatherless families and are not exposed to the masculine influence that I personally think is essential to a psychologically healthy child.

I would not refer to them as 'toxic' parents though, as others do, I think they, along with many others, are caught up in a generational transition from the old to the new and that none are certain that there is any, 'right/wrong, good/bad', any more and they really do not know which way to turn.

Women, because they bear children and are, by definition, dependent on others to provide for them, are much more amenable to a 'nanny state', that will care for them over a less protective and intrusive form of government.

Anyway, thank you for your plunge into the pool here and again, welcome to the fray.



Amicus...

 

[Scotsman69]

I'm grateful to freshface and cloudy for correcting my mistaken reasoning on several points.

And grateful to wise ogg for pointing out the US teen pregnancy rate is already twice the UK one. Sorry, I've been too busy writing tonight to check that out, but assumed on the basis of 'amicus's outrage that the UK rate was higher than the US.

He hasn't dealt with it above. Is there a reason for this? Like, don't let facts stand in the way of a good-going prejudice? That's the usual problem with the right in my experience. Including my several meetings with Maggie Thatcher... and just look what happened to her.

Watch out 'amicus'?

 

[sr71plt]

I'm grateful to freshface and cloudy for correcting my mistaken reasoning on several points.

And grateful to wise ogg for pointing out the US teen pregnancy rate is already twice the UK one. Sorry, I've been too busy writing tonight to check that out, but assumed on the basis of 'amicus's outrage that the UK rate was higher than the US.

He hasn't dealt with it above. Is there a reason for this? Like, don't let facts stand in the way of a good-going prejudice? That's the usual problem with the right in my experience. Including my several meetings with Maggie Thatcher... and just look what happened to her.

Watch out 'amicus'?

Cleaning up after his trail of mistakes and miscues isn't something Amicus does. Probably thinks that's an activity for liberals.

 

[Weird Harold]

Discipline, and education, should begin in the home.

Amen! Hear! Hear! and What she said! Children should have 90-some percent of their adult personalities by the time they come into contact with the public school system and there is damned little that the School System can do to alter that basic personality.

I find it absolutely amazing that some people always blame everything that is wrong with children today on public schools, an institution that children attend for only 7 hours a day. And none in the summer.

If you see a pattern that covers the entire gamut of demographics, don't you look for the things those demographics have in common?

The one, singular, thing that the entire gamut of childhood demographics has in common is 12-13 years of formal schooling and the vast majority of that formal schooling is provided by public schools.

TV and pop music/culture come close to being universal, but the are clear demographic/regional/economic/ethnic boundaries that exclude large segments of the seven-to-eighteen population from a common experience.

 

[amicus]

Well said, Wierd Harold, well said indeed.

I spent last summer as a live in care-giver for my daughter's four children; it was a delightful experience and one that I cherish.

Because of circumstances these children are awakened early, during the school year, the two youngest go off to day care, the two oldest off to school and after school care until the working mother picks them up.

She is exhausted, as most are after a day's work, so it was a relief for her that I prepared the evening meal and kept the children occupied as she chilled out and could resume her motherly duties.

I think that is not unusual, with the exception of my presence during the summer, for a great many single mothers, not just in the USA, but elsewhere.

This didn't start as an America versus Britain thread, someone else made it so, the connection, the common denominator in both, however, is the similar culture of liberal left wing relativistic morality and ethics that has led to single parents and promiscuity in terms of sexual relationships among the very young.

I was somewhat surprised when the British reported said that Britain had the highest rate of teen pregnancies in the Euro countries and I did not google to confirm that.

I would have thought that Sweden would top the list since they have given nothing to the world since ABBA and appear to be on a downward spiral into outright socialism.

So, it is not that I don't like the Brits, I don't like anybody very much, so there.

But, for birdie87 and anyone else who wants to know, Ayn Rand, a half century ago, predicted the moral bankruptcy of liberal left wing societies long before it ever became a fact..

Many have said, as an over-view, that modern society is, first of all overpopulated, too many having children and second, that all the old customs of chastity before marriage, marriage for life, close family ties with the actual father and mother raising the children, is old fashioned and useless in the 'modern world' of feminine equality and empowerment.

I think it is a matter worthy of discussion, most here do not, that of the changed and changing moral foundation expressed by individual actions and the lack of responsibility for those actions.

Amicus...

 

[cloudy]

He hasn't dealt with it above. Is there a reason for this? Like, don't let facts stand in the way of a good-going prejudice? That's the usual problem with the right in my experience. Including my several meetings with Maggie Thatcher... and just look what happened to her.

Watch out 'amicus'?

Amicus hates "furriners," non-whites, and women, in that order. Don't expect him to back up anything he says with actual facts. I've been posting here for five years, and haven't seen it yet.

Welcome to the AH, btw.

 

[amicus]

Amicus hates "furriners," non-whites, and women, in that order. Don't expect him to back up anything he says with actual facts. I've been posting here for five years, and haven't seen it yet.

Welcome to the AH, btw.

~~~

Hi, Cloudy, howzit?

I did. "the worst that could happen" (procul Harem(sp), to Cloudy, a good five years ago...I questioned her philosophy and ethical system; she has never forgiven me.

Most on this forum feel quite the same way, chagrinned that anyone would question left wing liberal promiscuity and relativism.

I mean, who in their right mind would think that abortion is actually killing a baby?

Who on earth would criticize the acceptance and toleration of 'gays' in society as it is their god given, oops, ahm, these folks don't have a god, right to express their sexuality in any way they please and have it taught in the schools.

And you wonder about gender confusion among the young? Silly you.

And civil rights, who in their right mind would challenge 'affirmative action', special treatment for Blacks as a payback for the slavery episodes in America, ah, amend that, world wide, througout history?

And, to paraphrase a line from a film, "Shooter", "Some of these damned fools think one single man, an individual can make a difference! We end up having to kill them off to show they make no difference at all!"

There is the crux of the disdain for the ole Amicus on this lil hangout, he has the audacity to say, again and again, that the individual need is greater than the hive. Imagine that! A society of individuals who have their rights and liberties protected by law. Unheard of!

With liberal left wing economic thought failing everywhere in the world and now, finally, after 70 years of 'New Deal' wannabees, even coming to fruition in America as the socialist policies are coming due...what with the moral and ethical foundations of the left wing liberals failing on every point, poor Cloudy and friends, (I call em the 'usual suspects), are left with nothing to do but hurl epithets and whine that life is so unfair and that someone should ban AMICUS, from saying those terrible untrue things.

Ain't it wunnerful?



Amicus...

 

[Goldie Munro]

Amicus, please go get a real life and stop feeding off British tabloids to keep alive

 

[amicus]

(Psssst...Goldie....it is all over the news here) I wouldn't know British tabloids if one jumped up and bit me on the netherparts.



Ami

 

[sr71plt]

~~~

I mean, who in their right mind would think that abortion is actually killing a baby?

Ummm, I do. One believes what they believe. I can't disbelieve it's a human life. From that point, it all gets complicated, though.

And I'm an Eleanor Roosevelt liberal/socialist.

So, about not being able to see the gray in anything . . .

 

[Goldie Munro]

(Psssst...Goldie....it is all over the news here) I wouldn't know British tabloids if one jumped up and bit me on the netherparts.



Ami

Oooh american tabloids! Goodie!

 

[DesertPirate]

Discipline, and education, should begin in the home.

You think a high school can "fix" a 16-year-old who's done whatever the hell he's wanted to since he was born?

I find it absolutely amazing that some people always blame everything that is wrong with children today on public schools, an institution that children attend for only 7 hours a day. And none in the summer.

What about parents? Grandparents? Extended family? Babysitters?

Isn't anyone else supposed to exert influence over their children? They're not in school for the majority of their life.

I won't argue because you are right. There is no discipline anywhere these days. The parents are the biggest problem by far. If they don't hold the kids accountable who will? Hell the lack of self discipline was the reason my Dad quit teaching in the College of Agriculture in 1980! Wanted to smack the hell out of all of them, and most needed it!

My problem with public schools is the backwards application of what creates "self-esteem". Don't do anything that might harm it. When they need to show that working for success builds it. Name someone that hasn't failed at something during their lives? how can you learn to succeed without failing? Yet we are raising a generation that is being protected from failure. Creates a major problem when they hit the "real" world doesn't it?

 

[Goldie Munro]

not allowed to comment coz im just bitchin

 

[amicus]

Ummm

, I do. One believes what they believe. I can't disbelieve it's a human life. From that point, it all gets complicated, though.

And I'm an Eleanor Roosevelt liberal/socialist.

So, about not being able to see the gray in anything

. . .

~~~~

Believe, believes, disbelieve....

therein lies your problem, pilot.

One can equate whatever you 'believe' with that of any other 'belief' from human sacrifice to cannibalism and as 'beliefs', they all hold equal weight.

To suggest that there does exist a rational, objective and knowable code of absolute ethics and morals would probably cause your sr71 to spring a fuel leak before launch. (oh, it was built that way...silly me)

Amicus...

 

[cloudy]

someone should ban AMICUS, from saying those terrible untrue things.

I've never said anything remotely like that, and neither has anyone else that I know of - and you know it.

I don't care what you say, to be honest...free speech, and all that. I do, however, reserve the right to think you beyond silly.

 

[sr71plt]

~~~~


therein lies your problem, pilot.

One can equate whatever you 'believe' with that of any other 'belief' from human sacrifice to cannibalism and as 'beliefs', they all hold equal weight.

To suggest that there does exist a rational, objective and knowable code of absolute ethics and morals would probably cause your sr71 to spring a fuel leak before launch. (oh, it was built that way...silly me)

Amicus...

What a crock of shit. You either believe or disbelieve on any given issue. It's a fundamental fact (one of the few in existence). You can give an argument about it on either side as you wish (which, I understand you do, being reactionary here and a flaming terrorist on other boards--all for your amusement)--but you still either believe something or you don't (which isn't static, it can change with new perspection or new information, whether correct or not).

I doubt you even understand the tripe you posted here.