Brit MP National Health 60 year failure...

[amicus]

Okay...this was just on the news, not yet on the net so it is paraphrased from memory but important enough to get it while still fresh.

Among much else, British MP Daniel Hannan noted that only the Red Chinese Army has more employees than the National Health Service in England.

Shortage of Doctors as they migrate to America for a better life, "our best and brightest leave..."

"Rationing system of care that refuses to treat advanced breast cancer..."

"We tell you of the failure of our socialist ways so that you, as a friend, may be warned not to copy it..."

"American's have a choice; you have fifty separate governments that can try new things, reject those that fail, copy those that work. Socialized medicine does not work! We went into it as a nation and we all suffer."

"We recently legislated a great deal of money to pay the Doctors more; they cut their hours of service in response..."

"It all started, 60 years ago, with the best of intentions, to provide quality health care for those who could not afford it. The system has failed miserably, we are far down on the list of adequate care for our people..."

I think MP Hannan's words speak for themselves.

Amicus...

 

[DesertPirate]

They do

The hard question is, are there enough people in Washington smart enough to listen?

 

[amicus]

In my opinion, DP, not a chance.

Sad commentary, eh?

Ami

 

[DesertPirate]

In my opinion, DP, not a chance.

Sad commentary, eh?

Ami

All too true!

 

[ishtat]

One of the ironies coming out of the economic mess the Bush administration left behind is that there may not be enough money left over for a lot of Obama's spending plans. Now, is that a good thing or is it not?

 

[amicus]

Rather a mixed bag, Ishtat, and not quite sure whether you see it as a good thing or a bad.

It is, De rigueur, to criticize the preceding administration for all the woes of the world, but is a short lived excuse I think.

I have never been a Republican and never had much good to say about either Bush, but it has always been the choice of a lesser evil in terms of the America I know and respect.

I do think the last Bush administration was totally involved in the response to the tragedy of 9/11 that occured just a few months into his first term. The economic front, I see, as simply trying to remain static and stable, which of course is impossible.

But I do have hopes that at least some will take the advice of our British colleague and give a great deal of thought to his words.

We shall see.

Amicus...

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Strange how parts of the US media have taken to Hannan. His very public demolition of Brown was needed (and also quite funny), but I don't think he individually represents a solution.

The British NHS has flaws. It is a financial black hole in that there will always never be enough money, but it's important that it exists. Letting people die of trivial ailments because they don't have the money is wasteful and shouldn't be part of any modern civilised society.

 

[amicus]

manyeyedhydra
Really Really Experienced

Yes, Hannan is not a particularly handsome or charismatic appearing man, but we Yanks just love that crisp British way of speaking and he does speak with passion and great intent.

"...Letting people die of trivial ailments because they don't have the money..."

I have never heard or spoken to or read of anyone letting people die of trivial ailments, never, not once.

There are countless hundreds, thousands of stories about small town doctors giving service to one and all regardless of the ability to pay.

Medicine is a profound and honorable profession and I for one, would never stoop to forcing a doctor or any medical practitioner to work for a system that did not compensate him according to his merit and performance.

That is the fatal flaw in your National Health Service. When you attempt to force people into a closed system, they rebel, they refuse to serve, the 'brain drain' from socialist countries, when they can escape, continues to this very day.

Medical service is a commodity; like any other commodity it is subject to the laws of supply and demand. If the omnipotent AMA in this country, a hold over from the medical guilds of the past, were abolished, you would find affordable clinics popping up on every corner of every town just like Taco Bell and McDonald's.

University Professors are treated in the same manner, unfortunately, they are pampered and honored without earning the honor of being so treated. The same affliction infects modern higher education and could be rapidly cured in the same manner.

Both the cost of medical treatment and education are becoming beyond the reach of many and that is another sad commentary on modern society.

Amicus...

 

[The_Trouvere]

Health Care Systems in Ten Developed Countries: The U.S. System Is Most Unpopular

According to a Harris Survey, the British are fairly content with their health system. 15% would like to make major changes, although probably not in the direction of ending socialized medicine. In the United States, 33% desire major changes, almost certainly in the direction of socialized medicine.

"Fully 33 percent of Americans believe that the American system 'has so much wrong with it that we need to completely rebuild it', and a further 50 percent think that 'fundamental changes are needed to make it work better'

"In the other nine countries those who believe they need to completely rebuild their systems vary from only nine percent in The Netherlands and 12 percent in Spain to 15 percent in France, 17 percent in New Zealand, 18 percent in Australia and 20 percent in Italy; all well below the 33 percent in this country."
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=927

In no country with universal health care is there a popular demand to end it, only to change it.

 

[amicus]

Trouvere...one can appreciate the effort expended in searching, copying and pasting the information you did...but...what does it mean?

We, in America, live in a Representational Republic, we choose those who represent us in government. Those who represent us do so under a strict rule of law as contained in our founding documents, amendments and statutes.

We are not subject to democracy, mob rule, nor do we poll the citizenship to determine our course of action.

Under our system of government, we are not permitted to force a doctor to provide his services subject to our approval and compensation.

Offer a free lunch at a local restaurant and the crowds will come, people are funny that way, if it is 'free', it must be good.

Not so, my friend, not so at all.

As the British Member of Parliament said of his own country's health plan, it has failed for 60 years. He warned against others experimenting with the socialistic plan because of its inherent faults.

Let's say that I am a Doctor, hell, I might be, this is the internet, and you want to force me to practice according to your plan. Ya wanna know my immediate answer?



amicus...

 

[amicus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNDQChL4hQQ

I went searching for a transcript of the commentary I related...this is not it, but thought you might appreciate since I also hear there is a 'blackout' in news coverage in England of MP Hannan?

Amicus...

 

[ChilledVodkaIV]

Daniel Hannan: right wing member of European parliament that sits on the committee on fisheries.

Small fish. Big pond.

Barrel: bottom of: scraping

 

[amicus]

Daniel Hannan: right wing member of European parliament that sits on the committee on fisheries.

Small fish. Big pond.

Barrel: bottom of: scraping

~~~


Hmmm...okay...the difference between Conservative & Labour and right wing in GB escapes me I guess...but I get it that you have not much respect for the gentleman...s'okay...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2009/03/25/my_speech_to_gordon_brown_goes_viral

You might find this of interest although I doubt it.

Amicus....

 

[ishtat]

Daniel Hannan: right wing member of European parliament that sits on the committee on fisheries.

Small fish. Big pond.

Barrel: bottom of: scraping

This post is misleading Yes Hannan is an MEP rather than an MP and he has very few committee assignments but that is largely because he gets right up the nose of the Europhile establishment so he doesnt get any handouts. In particular he has done much to publicise the way various other members of the European parliament and bureaucracy use their position to line their own pockets. He is a professional pain in the ass to the Europeans and good luck to him. He also writes for the UK Daily Telegraph a deliberately provocative moderately right wing anti EU column.

The funny thing about his demolition of Brown is that normally the chairman wouldn't have given Hannan the chance to reply. However the EU establishment detests Brown even more than they detest Hannan so he got the gig to give Brown a once over. He did a pretty good job I think.

Another comment was made above (by Amicus I think) that this speech was not reported in the UK media. That is largely true. The BBC which is totally in the pocket of the government didn't report it at all and it was two days before it got any attention from the commercial channels. This seems to stem from the fact that UK broadcasting is requred to be balanced and "unbiased" so the lazy journalists provide balance by ignoring strong statements.

Can you imagine an attack on a US president of such cogency going unreported?

 

[ishtat]

Rather a mixed bag, Ishtat, and not quite sure whether you see it as a good thing or a bad.

Amicus...

I don't think that replacing private debt with public debt helps at all. It will financially crucify the next generation of taxpayers It is even worse when taxpayer funds are given to the management of these companies which got them in trouble in the first place and worse again when the banker of last resort (the taxpayer) is getting no security for their loan.

If it is necessary for taxpayer funds to be used to preserve some liquidity I think it should be done by having the FIDC administer these entities as though they were broke(which they are). That it cannot be denied is effective nationalisation, a political no no but I cannot see a better solution . All the other answers are horrible. The chance of either Congress or the UK Parliament of contributing the minutest fraction of common sense also seems most unlikely.

Hope that clarifies my position a bit to you.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

There are no free lunches. Everything costs.

The bailout pricetag is $42,000 for every person in America. This is the cost to keep the bad banks and bad car companies and bad Wall Street brokers in business. Its detox and rehab for the bad players. And YOU are responsible for the bill. The 13 TRILLION Dollars to pay for it comes from your pocket.

This is about $160,000 per household. It could buy a home for you. It could buy a lot of things. It could virtually put every unemployed person to work, pay off every dime of creditcard debt, buy you a new car, pay for heath insurance, and a bunch more. But you wont get a penny of it, eventhough youre on the hook for the money. Youre paying for the party you werent invited to.

The 13 TRILLION pricetag means there wont be much money you or anyone else can borrow to buy cars or homes or use for your business.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Let's say that I am a Doctor, hell, I might be, this is the internet, and you want to force me to practice according to your plan. Ya wanna know my immediate answer?

Do a John Galt. See if anyone cares. Then tell people why you can't pay your bills any more.

 

[oggbashan]

Medicine is a profound and honorable profession and I for one, would never stoop to forcing a doctor or any medical practitioner to work for a system that did not compensate him according to his merit and performance.

That is the fatal flaw in your National Health Service. When you attempt to force people into a closed system, they rebel, they refuse to serve, the 'brain drain' from socialist countries, when they can escape, continues to this very day.

...

Both the cost of medical treatment and education are becoming beyond the reach of many and that is another sad commentary on modern society.

Amicus...

I have reduced your post to answer a couple of your statements.

Doctors (and Dentists) are not FORCED to work for the NHS and by UK standards, even if they do, they are very well paid. My youngest daughter is a doctor. She is working OUTSIDE the NHS, not through choice, but because there is an apparent oversupply of doctors in the NHS. The brain drain is largely TO the UK from developing countries because they can be trained within the NHS, or learn new skills and techniques. I admit that the US is the preferred destination for those doctors at the cutting edge of new techniques because the funding for research can be better. My son-in-law travels to the US several times a year to lecture on his specialist medical subject and take part in seminars with other people, from all over the world, who are leaders in his field.

The number of nurses from Africa working in the NHS is a significant problem for their home countries.

I can choose to be treated within the NHS, to be treated privately either by paying the cost myself or through insurance, or through a mutual society to which I belong. I can choose to be treated elsewhere in Europe and that is an increasing choice for "cold" surgery - surgery that can be done now or later, or is optional such as cosmetic surgery. Cosmetic surgery is available on the NHS but is usually reserved for burn or accident victims rather than a desire to improve one's own appearance.

Your second statement, which I have highlighted in bold, is true all over the world. One of the admitted problems of the UK's NHS is its cost. Whether the cost is borne by the taxpayer, the employer, the insurance companies, or the individual - that cost is high and how it can become affordable has to be debated.

It can be affordable IF the range of treatments available is restricted in some way. Cost is one way of restricting availability. Insurance companies' small print for exclusions and limits on claims is another. The NHS tends to restrict by budgets. Until recently it was impossible to "top-up" NHS treatment with privately paid for additions such as expensive drugs without bearing the FULL cost of all the treatment. That nonsense has been exposed and stopped.

The UK's NHS isn't perfect. Even its strongest supporters admit that. The US's system isn't perfect and fails far too many. Other European countries systems are flawed as well.

What is common is a desire to provide the best medical care. How it is paid for is a minefield on both sides of the Atlantic.

Og

 

[Pure]

i love amicus' anti-democracy spiels

ami We [U.S.] are not subject to democracy, mob rule, nor do we poll the citizenship to determine our course of action.

Under our system of government, we are not permitted to force a doctor to provide his services subject to our approval and compensation.

Offer a free lunch at a local restaurant and the crowds will come, people are funny that way, if it is 'free', it must be good.

Not so, my friend, not so at all.

As the British Member of Parliament said of his own country's health plan, it has failed for 60 years. He warned against others experimenting with the socialistic plan because of its inherent faults.


===
he confuses democracy with mob rule (on purpose). as to polling, every candidate and every office holder, including 'lesser of evils, GWB' does it. why, because it gives indicators of what might cause you to lose or be voted out of office---democratically.

US has MORE democracy than some european countries: ELECTING judges and prosecutors. Talk about 'mob rule.'


the results of European people's democratic choices are dismissed by amicus, as being due to 'free lunch' mentality. yet surely all citizens are aware that their health care is funded from taxes on them, and the taxes are not small.

as the saying goes, democracy is a terrible form of government; but it beats the hell out of the known alternatives. picture amicus' dreams of glory. he's the dictator of all. can decree the perfect free market and roll back ANY regulation of commerce, banks, and business. kind of a mix of mussolini and calvin coolidge.

note that amicus relies on courts to avoid making drs work for the government (which as Ogg points out is a lie, applied to England). if a bill is passed requiring doctors to contribute, the Supreme Court can strike it down [based on founding documents that the Brits and European allegedly lack]. at the same time amicus is usually railing about judges with too much power. go figure.

 

[Pure]

ggod points, jbj.

JBJThere are no free lunches. Everything costs.

The bailout pricetag is $42,000 for every person in America. This is the cost to keep the bad banks and bad car companies and bad Wall Street brokers in business. Its detox and rehab for the bad players. And YOU are responsible for the bill. The 13 TRILLION Dollars to pay for it comes from your pocket.

This is about $160,000 per household. It could buy a home for you. It could buy a lot of things. It could virtually put every unemployed person to work, pay off every dime of creditcard debt, buy you a new car, pay for heath insurance, and a bunch more. But you wont get a penny of it, eventhough youre on the hook for the money. Youre paying for the party you werent invited to.

The 13 TRILLION pricetag means there wont be much money you or anyone else can borrow to buy cars or homes or use for your business.
--------------------

You are right. Every household pays. And as you suggest both Republican and Democratic congress persons are voting to bail out, which went into high gear under Bush's Sec'y of Treasury, Paulson.

Heard of Chimerica? It's a neat word.

http://www.the-american-interest.com/ai2/article.cfm?Id=533&MId=23

US and China are now joined at the hip. US buys the goods, and China buys US bonds [the debt you spoke of] and is now the largest bondholder.

Your last sentence, however, is incorrect. Plans are already afoot to subsidize the buying of GM cars. And low cost guaranteed mortages for the middle class, are in the works. In a word, the actual loss is spread over decades: every one continues to consume but a high percent of their taxes goes to 'debt service', i.e. the Chinese.

 

[The_Trouvere]

JBJ
The bailout pricetag is $42,000 for every person in America. This is the cost to keep the bad banks and bad car companies and bad Wall Street brokers in business. Its detox and rehab for the bad players. And YOU are responsible for the bill. The 13 TRILLION Dollars to pay for it comes from your pocket.

In Europe there is little enthusiasm for bailouts, and much enthusiasm for more regulations. They do not think rich people should be given money. They think rich people should be told what they cannot do any more. Then they should get tax increases.

 

[amicus]

In Europe there is little enthusiasm for bailouts, and much enthusiasm for more regulations. They do not think rich people should be given money. They think rich people should be told what they cannot do any more. Then they should get tax increases.[/QUOTE]


~~~

No wonder...Europe cannot solve its own problems and needs the US to foot the bill. European Defense for 60 years has been paid for by the American tax dollar; you can't even rise to the occasion when genocide takes place within your own realm, you had Americans to bail your wimpy asses out of Bosnia and can't even muster up the courage to contribute troops to rescue Kuwait from another dictator.

Taxing the rich and nationalizing their assets and telling them how to live? Old hat for Europe. It seems like every anathema contributing to the ills of man, from fascism to communism, was born and nurtured in Europe. Social democracies are just an ALT for Liberal Fascism. You ain't foolin no one.

Amicus...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No peon that I know of has ever created jobs or wealth for his community. Peons tote water and cut firewood and hoe cotton, which is noble and honorable work, but it doesnt create wealth and properity like ideas and investments.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

We shoulda left Europe to the tender mercies of Herr Hitler.

 

[amicus]

AMICUS

We shoulda left Europe to the tender mercies of Herr Hitler.[/QUOTE]


~~~

As perhaps we should leave them to the tender mercies of Radical Islam. If Americans ever really tire of being the 'world's policemen' and just protect our own shores...you would see an immediate collapse of western civilization in Europe and Asia.

Do you ever wonder why they can't understand that?

Amicus...