Bringing Poetry back from dead

[Eluard]

Folks — I have a dream. The dream is of poetry once again being an art form that reaches more people than a small subset of those who actually write it. Not popular, you understand — but so that its reach is much wider than it currently is. I believe this is possible. I believe that by doing nothing other than write we are acquiessing in the death of this great art form. So this is a call to arms.

The problem as I see it is that we now have a culture that, in every sphere, values performance over creativity. Actors get paid more than screenwriters, novelists struggle to make a living, poets don't make a living at all, yet everyone knows Paris Hilton. Painters become rich only by becoming celebrities, that is, by performing the role of artist.

But in pretty much every country now there are cable channels that are dedicated to art, and those channels need content. But because this means performance that content rarely includes poetry.

So imagine a half hour programme of some of OUR best poetry. Imagine this: There is an image, or a series of images, and the camera glides slowly across them in a variation of the Ken Burns pan. And as it does a voice reads one of your poems — maybe it is your own voice, but also maybe a professional. And in the background there is some music that punctuates and complements it. Maybe it is your music — but maybe it is by someone else. Would you be gripped by watching this? I think you would. I think many people would be drawn in and mesmerised by this because here is your poetry being performed in the way people now demand, with a visual hook. Novelists can't do this, but we can. We can and we should. So what about a half hour programme that mixes some of the best that we've done, say on the 30/30 (I say this just because this is what I currently know best.)

Putting a prototype of this together would be very easy — I'm sure I could do it on my Mac in a weekend. In fact a few months ago I went half way there by recording some poems with a musical background, using garageband. The experiments in this could be put on YouTube in the first instance.

My question is: is anyone else interested in this and does anyone have any contacts that would get one a foot in the door with PBS, Channel 4 (in the UK) or something similar? And can anyone improve on my suggestion?

Come on — do we want to be practioners of a dead art form or do we want to try to revitalise it?

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

It's funny you should post this today. I was reading the 30/30 poems and thinking Damn, a great volume of poetry is right here.
A radio programme is a great idea. Here in Canada poetry gets sporadic coverage by the CBC but it does get some attention.

 

[RhymeFairy]

I think it's a great idea, unfor. I have no contacts ... Keep your idea alive my friend, it's a good one ~

 

[Tzara]

Come on — do we want to be practioners of a dead art form or do we want to try to revitalise it?

What's wrong with dead art forms? Or even Dead art forms?

Sorry, El. Good point, but I am non-performer.

In many ways.

 

[RhymeFairy]

What's wrong with dead art forms? Or even Dead art forms?

Sorry, El. Good point, but I am non-performer.

In many ways.

I just don't quiet believe that, after reading your poetry ..

 

[Tzara]

I just don't quiet believe that, after reading your poetry ..

You haven't seen me dance, either.



It works like this: The wife gets me stiff drunk, leans me upright in a corner, takes my hand and happily boogies around while I help reinforce the building structure. I read poetry the same way. It's like listening to Fed chairman talk about interest rates, except duller.

Please tell me Pittsburgh won't be that hot and humid in late September. I have Pirates tickets.

 

[wildsweetone]

perhaps an improvement might be to cut a cd with poetry readings and then try to sell that. how's that for a modern technological twist?

personally, i like to savour each and every poem i read/hear. i can't get the full impact of a poem when it is read in front of me along with dozens of others. i don't consider it fair to me to read poems or listen to poems as if i were reading or listening to a novel. for me, each poem is different, each is special and each needs my whole package to enjoy.

i know that's going to sound daft to people who frequent poetry readings. but that's just me.

however... if i had the ability to read along with listening, or to play again and again one single poem if i wanted, then i'd be In like Flynn. - a cd would give me that ability.

thanks for making me think.

 

[Eluard]

perhaps an improvement might be to cut a cd with poetry readings and then try to sell that. how's that for a modern technological twist?

personally, i like to savour each and every poem i read/hear. i can't get the full impact of a poem when it is read in front of me along with dozens of others. i don't consider it fair to me to read poems or listen to poems as if i were reading or listening to a novel. for me, each poem is different, each is special and each needs my whole package to enjoy.

i know that's going to sound daft to people who frequent poetry readings. but that's just me.

however... if i had the ability to read along with listening, or to play again and again one single poem if i wanted, then i'd be In like Flynn. - a cd would give me that ability.

thanks for making me think.

Well this is a good idea, but my idea was to include the visuals, so it might have to be a DVD. But readings on a television programme might at least let people know that there was this poetry out there. (After all, how many people now even know what is being written these days.) Then they can buy the CD/DVD to keep.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I am so totally in on this, but don't really have time to respond properly tonight. I'm hot about this idea, though. Years ago I made a few videos to a couple of pieces, and the technology is so far beyond what we struggled with back then. It took about three weeks to do a total of about 3 minutes of black and white footage the way I wanted to build it, but we did it. These days it might take a day or two to do that same thing.

I'm on this. May even have both suggestions and connections on how to pitch the episodes. Keep brainstorming.

I love the idea of doing a series of pieces from the 30/30. I'm also finding some very interesting things on YouTube - I'll paste a couple of tomorrow, but try it yourself: just go to Tube, search on "poetry" and you'll end up wandering into some amazing little places.

Go go go go!
bijou

 

[Eluard]

I am so totally in on this, but don't really have time to respond properly tonight. I'm hot about this idea, though. Years ago I made a few videos to a couple of pieces, and the technology is so far beyond what we struggled with back then. It took about three weeks to do a total of about 3 minutes of black and white footage the way I wanted to build it, but we did it. These days it might take a day or two to do that same thing.

I'm on this. May even have both suggestions and connections on how to pitch the episodes. Keep brainstorming.

I love the idea of doing a series of pieces from the 30/30. I'm also finding some very interesting things on YouTube - I'll paste a couple of tomorrow, but try it yourself: just go to Tube, search on "poetry" and you'll end up wandering into some amazing little places.

Go go go go!
bijou

Great stuff! To do a prototype for this I probably need to invest in the book iMovie for Dummies — but I may be able to knock something up this weekend even without that. If I can I will put it on YouTube.

---------------

I'm ready for my close-up Mr De Mille.

(Sunset Boulevard)

Close-up? This is a close-up?

(Daffy Duck)

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Great stuff! To do a prototype for this I probably need to invest in the book iMovie for Dummies — but I may be able to knock something up this weekend even without that. If I can I will put it on YouTube.

---------------

I'm ready for my close-up Mr De Mille.

(Sunset Boulevard)

Close-up? This is a close-up?

(Daffy Duck)

Do it, for sure. So questions: what materials would you want from contributors? Are WE making videos, or writing production scripts, or providing our audio reading for you to use, or just letting you play with the text and read the pieces yourself? Or perhaps some combination? All of these would be cool approaches.

Episodically, if you did a set of collections, say episodes of 12 minutes or 22 minutes, you could theoretically pitch a series to some sort of arts channel, and in the meantime you can put samples on YouTube.

I haven't had a chance to do a real search in there yet, but there seems to be quite a bit of "poetry" available, and I think that's keen. Even just seeing how many pages came up when I searched on the term "Poetry" was encouraging. It's not dead, and in fact it's branching out, evolving, being redefined, being resurrected, becoming a multimedia experience in a whole new way, and reaching whole new audiences. Imagine!

An episode could feature the work of one poet, maybe 3-6 pieces, or it could be thematic, or it could be music-based, or if multiple people are doing the videos you could feature one person's "vision" for several people's work.

I do have a few production scripts that I put together a long time ago. They're very specific, and it's a dream I have to see them produced. But I think it would be equally interesting to see how some other artist would interpret one of my pieces.

I'm babbling. That's enough for now.
*excited*
bijou

 

[TMV]

Eluard, what an amazing art of inspiration!!!

But I think that too many people here are thinking of it as a singular project by the artist's themselves. The way to change this thought is to bring in the community into the project and provide a mix of talent's into the project. To co-operate in a social undertaking that would have many others using their talents in their own sweet blessed way to bring the project to fruition!

What we would need is talented voices to speak through the poem's in the most emotional and enchanting fashion. Because, I have had my poem's read by so-called professionals and have been wounded by their lack of heart and inflection on my poem. Children can hear the book's they love, read with such enthusiasm and involvement! We should have some who can read our poem's on the same involvement!

We would need vid-editor's, musician's, a library of vid's, and a people who have the ability to go out to find and engage people looking for something on this basis! A true piece of artistic innovation! we have a community here..., what we lack is the involvement and dedication to work on such a blazing idea! And we all, being gross amatuer's, can give ourselves an education in what we are doing and finally be involved in something that is missing in this dark world! It is dark, because of a lack of poetry in the mainstream to call out to the people in the language, they have not remembered. But need to remember, soulfully!

An amatuer's production of inspirational magnitude! I myself have been working with images and vid work and wouldn't mind elevating my learning skill's! I am also a musician, a guitarist. And I do have some wicked licks in a manner that I think would be very touching and enchanting!

Oh my dear Lord! We would need some amatuer artist to create some images as well to be shown with the poetry in the vid and even to help create a cover! And script-writers and..., bloody hell! The possibilities are endless!

But all things like an amatuer vid of poetry should always start out simply at first. But the potential for growth in this is amazing! It's an unexplored medium in this poetic enterprise. Yes..., other's have done something like this on some basis before. But they didn't have the computer capability that we have now! The mass of pure amatuer resources! And the need to advance our lives and art to where it is once more commented on freely and openly! No more behind cloistered wall's!!!

 

[Eluard]

Do it, for sure. So questions: what materials would you want from contributors? Are WE making videos, or writing production scripts, or providing our audio reading for you to use, or just letting you play with the text and read the pieces yourself? Or perhaps some combination? All of these would be cool approaches.

Episodically, if you did a set of collections, say episodes of 12 minutes or 22 minutes, you could theoretically pitch a series to some sort of arts channel, and in the meantime you can put samples on YouTube.

I haven't had a chance to do a real search in there yet, but there seems to be quite a bit of "poetry" available, and I think that's keen. Even just seeing how many pages came up when I searched on the term "Poetry" was encouraging. It's not dead, and in fact it's branching out, evolving, being redefined, being resurrected, becoming a multimedia experience in a whole new way, and reaching whole new audiences. Imagine!

An episode could feature the work of one poet, maybe 3-6 pieces, or it could be thematic, or it could be music-based, or if multiple people are doing the videos you could feature one person's "vision" for several people's work.

I do have a few production scripts that I put together a long time ago. They're very specific, and it's a dream I have to see them produced. But I think it would be equally interesting to see how some other artist would interpret one of my pieces.

I'm babbling. That's enough for now.
*excited*
bijou

So let's keep chatting about this whole video project, hm? Eluard, you still wanna do that? I think the 30 30 collection would be an interesting focus for a set.

Well, there is a problem with tying this to the 30/30 — very few contributors to that thread want to be involved. And that's fine of course: people have different priorities and different ways of thinking how they can get their poetry before the audience they want. But the upshot is: whatever happens with this the 30/30 is irrelevant to its fate. And with that the idea that this is a collective project also takes a hit.

That said, I am fired up by bijou's enthusiasm. I am going to go ahead and try to produce a few pieces of my own and will share what I learn in the process, if anything. If there are others who do the same then I think, when we have enough, we can revive the idea of a collective project and think about how to package it and where to send it. Even local art galleries might be interested in having a display of some kind.

There is a lot of talent on this forum — it would be nice to see it recognised more widely. Here, I'm afraid,we are still just poets talking to other poets.

 

[TheRainMan]

There is a lot of talent on this forum — it would be nice to see it recognised more widely. Here, I'm afraid,we are still just poets talking to other poets.

i agree there is a lot of talent here. to the best of my knowledge, that talent entails the written word.

performance art is a whole other ball game. . . . requires a whole other skill set. and what you speak of would require a bunch of skill sets.

are there any here with those skill sets? or does anyone here know anyone with those required talents -- i have no idea.

but they would be needed, wouldn't they? plus a Ken Burns clone (much more poorly funded, of course) . . . a poor man's Ken Burns, so to speak, to tie it all together.

this would be hard, i think, to pull off, without at least a few people with those skills . . . performance, voice, cinematography, etc. otherwise, the final product could be quite forgettable, or worse.

ever seen the poetry on YouTube? i'm quite certain Ken Burns was not involved in its production.

i've been to many events that try to present poetry to a world that values performance over creativity. slam poetry, for instance. i know some like it, but it's just a sub-culture of a larger sub-culture (poetry), and what i've seen has been uniformly bad. perhaps i simply went to the wrong places. what i saw was a few decent poets hopping around with microphones, or actors who actually knew how to present themselves but had the writing skills of high school sophomores. there was little coordination between talents.

and to pull off what you speak of, you'd need people who can speak as well and act as well and handle a camera as well and direct as well as you think the writers here can write.

and then, somewhere like PBS to present it.

it'd be a neat trick. i'm sure Ken Burns could do it.

i'm rooting for ya, El. -- my suggestion, if you're really serious, is not to rush . . . instead, figure out exactly what is needed, and find all the people (there would be many) who have both the skills and the enthusiasm (not to mention the time) to do it.

it's a project and a half, if you want something worthwhile. and i'm sure you do.

 

[Eluard]

You're right TRM — this will take some time and a good deal of co-ordination. Personally, I want to avoid the idea that this is a way of presenting mediocre work but dressing it up in multi-media frou-frou's. The poetry should be able to stand alone as poetry. Like you I've been to too many events where poetry is meant to reach a wider audience — only to find that it will reach them only if it is terrible, uncreative rubbish. (With what lack of fondness do I recall "street poetry"! Fortunately it is pretty dead here now.)

I guess our specific challenge now is to impress you and make you think "yes, this is good". If I can extract that reaction from you for one audio-visual presentation of a poem then I will take that as an accomplishment.

 

[TheRainMan]

I guess our specific challenge now is to impress you and make you think "yes, this is good". If I can extract that reaction from you for one audio-visual presentation of a poem then I will take that as an accomplishment.

if you can do that, you might even convince me to get involved.

 

[Eluard]

if you can do that, you might even convince me to get involved.

I'll hold you to that.

 

[wildsweetone]

El... not sure if this will be helpful, but there is an audio poetry category here that contains some stunning sounds with the poetry readings. you might find it useful to talk to one of the poets (obviously they have the ability to use, or borrow, some great sound programs/studios).

audio submissions seem only to be posted once each month or two. they're posted in a block and it seems usually on the northern hemisphere Mondays.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

One thing that tends to kill good ideas is overthinking and overplanning them before they're even really born. Things must grow from seeds.

There's no harm in trying a couple of things, even without the assistance of Ken Burns and a budget of 6 million, and just seeing where it might lead. If I felt like everything I did had to be completely perfect and professional the first time, I'd ...well, for one thing, I'd'a never gotten through the first week of the 30/30.

Go go go! Do it! I dare you all to just try some stuff and see what happens. Hell, Spielberg made student films. I've seen some. They weren't any E.T. or Close Encounters, I can tell you that. We learn by doing. Never wait till you're perfect to start.

Eluard, you didn't say whether you WANTED to use anyone else's stuff or if you were going to try this with your own work. If you'd like to try someone else's work, you at least have my permission to work with anything of mine on 30/30, if any of it seems useful to you.

I maintain my total enthusiasm. Low tech works, poetry is alive, and we're not doing this to reach the masses: we're doing it for the Fat Lady. Salinger's Fat Lady, in case the reference is too obscure. We're doing it because we're supposed to, because we can.

Street, rap and slam poetry may be frequently bad, but none of it's all bad, some of it's brilliant and a lot of it is heartfelt and meaningful. Much like every other kind of poetry, in every poetic period in history. Poetry, like language, is organic and dynamic. It evolves. I say this having witnessed just as many, if not more, bad examples of these forms as anybody around here. But then, is it that much different on this forum? Literotica submissions may be frequently bad, but they're not all bad, some of them are brilliant and a lot of them are heartfelt and meaningful.

That it's out there for us to have crotchety opinions about says it's alive. And every generation's poets say the future generation's poets are rebellious, uneducated morons who don't follow the proper rules.

The kids these days with their improvisational multi-media performances and their short hair... feh.

bijou

 

[TheRainMan]

One thing that tends to kill good ideas is overthinking and overplanning them . . .

another thing is underthinking and underplanning them.

i agree with everything you said, bijou.

Eluard started this thread with -- "Folks — I have a dream. The dream is of poetry once again being an art form that reaches more people than a small subset of those who actually write it." --

that's a large pie, no matter how you slice it. and even more than an array of talents, that will require time on task. those who have that sort of time, i envy greatly.

there's no doubt that poetry has been in decline (popularity-wise) for a while. his suggestion is to make it more appealing by responding to the supposed audience's preference of performance over creativity.

my first thought on how poetry can make a comeback is for poets to simply write better -- to write poetry that is more accessible, speaks in a better way to its listeners.

perhaps the idea doesn't turn me on because of my personal preference for creativity over performance (which does appear to put me in a distinct minority, worldwide). i value writers more than actors. and i certainly couldn't give two shits what Paris Hilton had for lunch, or where.

 

[Eluard]

his suggestion is to make it more appealing by responding to the supposed audience's preference of performance over creativity.

my first thought on how poetry can make a comeback is for poets to simply write better -- to write poetry that is more accessible, speaks in a better way to its listeners.

perhaps the idea doesn't turn me on because of my personal preference for creativity over performance (which does appear to put me in a distinct minority, worldwide). i value writers more than actors. and i certainly couldn't give two shits what Paris Hilton had for lunch, or where.

Well, there is a slight misunderstanding here. My suggestion is not to marry uncreative performance with creative poetry, it is to extend the creativity out to those other spheres (sound and image) so that they will bring the poetry to a wider audience. That is the hope. My feeling is that people will respond to poetry if more of the sensory aspects are filled in for them. (How many people never hear poetry read to them in a way that grips them viscerally.)

So I'm not on the side of performance over creativity — I'm entirely on the side of the latter. But we disagree on how to get the creative work across to people. I think the solution is not to "write better", and think that that alone will do it. I think the better one's writing the fewer people it will reach, because the difficult requires more from the audience, and in many cases more than they have. And as a definitive counterargument to you, let me point out that it is really not possible to write better sonnets, say, than Shakespeare or Donne, but that poetry is not reaching people to any great extent: it is just too difficult, it requires an effort. So the solution is not to write better, it is marry the poetry to creative forms that the audience is better trained for.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[TheRainMan]

Well, there is a slight misunderstanding here. My suggestion is not to marry uncreative performance with creative poetry, it is to extend the creativity out to those other spheres (sound and image) so that they will bring the poetry to a wider audience. That is the hope.

i understood that, El. i never meant to infer that you wanted to "marry uncreative performance with creative poetry." i know your intention is to marry two creative aspects into one.

my point was that the two are totally different talents, which usually requires two totally different people. it's a rare artist who has both. i sure don't -- i've read at enough poetry readings to know i read well, but to also know i am not a performer.

i'm sure there are slam poets, for instance, who are both good writers and good performers, but i've never seen one.

My feeling is that people will respond to poetry if more of the sensory aspects are filled in for them. (How many people never hear poetry read to them in a way that grips them viscerally.)

So I'm not on the side of performance over creativity — I'm entirely on the side of the latter. But we disagree on how to get the creative work across to people. I think the solution is not to "write better", and think that that alone will do it. I think the better one's writing the fewer people it will reach, because the difficult requires more from the audience, and in many cases more than they have.

we do differ here.

i do not equate "difficult" with "better" when it comes to poetry.

i think better poetry leans toward the simple, not the complex.

and i think the better (simple and sophisticated at once) one writes, the more people you will reach, not less.

And as a definitive counterargument to you, let me point out that it is really not possible to write better sonnets, say, than Shakespeare or Donne,

also disagree here.

i think Shakespeare's sonnets suck. they read fat and bloated, and are cliche-ridden.

that is a modern eye talking, of course. i'm sure they read just fine when they were written, but to me, they have not stood the test of time.

you can write better simply by being relevant to the world of your readers, which they no longer are. they're the poetic equivalent of walking around in puffy shirts and petticoats.

but that poetry is not reaching people to any great extent: it is just too difficult, it requires an effort. So the solution is not to write better, it is marry the poetry to creative forms that the audience is better trained for.

Just my 2 cents.

i'm all for poetry reaching people to a greater extent. and i DO think what you are planning could help that happen.

no question it's a visual world nowadays, so i know where you're coming from.

 

[Angeline]

Maybe this will help

When he was the U.S. Poet Laureate, Robert Pinsky created the Favorite Poems Project of ordinary people reading their favorite poems and explaining why they like them. It's an interesting project.

And UBU has lots of interesting audio and video poetry (as well as some stuff that's just, well, strange). It's one of my favorite sites, with recordings of poets as far back as Yeats, I believe.

Maybe these sites will help your muse, Eluard.

 

[Eluard]

we do differ here.

i do not equate "difficult" with "better" when it comes to poetry.

i think better poetry leans toward the simple, not the complex.

and i think the better (simple and sophisticated at once) one writes, the more people you will reach, not less.

I guess my disagreement with this is more a matter of emphasis. I think how you express something is a function of what you are trying to express.

Complex expression is not necessarily a good thing, but then neither is simple expression. Personally I am more interested in things that are difficult, things that I don't grasp easily, because that, for me, is where the surprises are — but that is just my preference.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

RainMan, my sweet,

I write th'immortal words on buttocks fair
and toward you gently wave them in the air.

with all affection, darling,
bijou



XX

A woman's face with nature's own hand painted,
Hast thou, the master mistress of my passion;
A woman's gentle heart, but not acquainted
With shifting change, as is false women's fashion:
An eye more bright than theirs, less false in rolling,
Gilding the object whereupon it gazeth;
A man in hue all hues in his controlling,
Which steals men's eyes and women's souls amazeth.
And for a woman wert thou first created;
Till Nature, as she wrought thee, fell a-doting,
And by addition me of thee defeated,
By adding one thing to my purpose nothing.
But since she prick'd thee out for women's pleasure,
Mine be thy love and thy love's use their treasure.




CXXXV

Whoever hath her wish, thou hast thy Will,
And Will to boot, and Will in over-plus;
More than enough am I that vexed thee still,
To thy sweet will making addition thus.
Wilt thou, whose will is large and spacious,
Not once vouchsafe to hide my will in thine?
Shall will in others seem right gracious,
And in my will no fair acceptance shine?
The sea, all water, yet receives rain still,
And in abundance addeth to his store;
So thou, being rich in Will, add to thy Will
One will of mine, to make thy large will more.
Let no unkind, no fair beseechers kill;
Think all but one, and me in that one Will.