butters
High on a Hill
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2009
- Posts
- 85,942
which is another reason why britain can't be allowed to just walk away without some kind of economic punishment - higher costs to trade, last to get lucrative deals, restrictions and more. the rest of the european community has to be shown it's not economically prudent for them split from the main body.That claim was consistently debunked before the vote took place.
but the majority of those who voted 'leave' still believed it, and ALL of those i know who voted that way did. they simply didn't believe the people telling them differently.
Immigration was and is a huge problem but the majority is not from inside the EU. What was seen as a problem with EU migrants was that there was no control whatever and some high profile cases of criminals using the EU's open access to come to the UK freely.
immigration is something that has to be addressed fairly, consistently, and with compassion for refugees.
again, the way refugees, in particular, were dumped en masse in areas already subject to high unemployment/low wages/insufficient social housing/infrastructure in order to create problems for the populations and councils running them was, in my opinion, a highly cynical operation. it bred fear, distrust, and illegal activity and acted to pull in support for the likes of farrage. there were many 'wealthy' areas that took very few; their tory leaders saw to that as they knew they'd have problems getting re-elected by the local elite if they did.
there are plenty of places in britain where it's still rare to see a person of any colour other than beigey-pink; my own neighbour, a brexit fan and one-time labour supporter became convinced the neighbourhood was being overrun by 'foreigners', but had no problems with white immigrants or selling her house to an indian family offering her above the street-value at the time. she grabbed the money and moved to norfolk, on the coast, and it's pretty much 99% white-skinned people living there - and that's exactly how they like it. it doesn't matter to them that a lot of those people are white-skinned immigrants from the e.u. - they don't stand out and therefore don't make them feel in any way uncomfortable.
unless they were refugees, or illegal immigrants, there's no 'free' about immigrating to britain. or americait costs a wad.
The immigration numbers are and remain a significant problem that successive governments haven't addressed in terms of providing infrastructure such as housing, roads, public transport, and health services to name but a few. In or out of the EU those infrastructure failings still exist and are not being tackled.
successive gov't's, agreed, but let us not forget who began the trend by the mass selling off the ageing social housing stock - much welcomed by the residents - but failed to deliver on expectations to build new and better and SUFFICIENT housing for the people who needed it, and the privatising of a whole lot of our infrastructure. thatcher.
Anyone aware of the failed negotiations of David Cameron before the referendum vote should have been very clear that the EU would cede nothing (the reasons for that are complex) and should have expected an economic price which has been consistently overstated. should have - the problem is, ogg, so many were focused purely on the bullet points of n.h.s/immigration/independence to do as we please and call shots we never could.
Racist? The impact of leaving the EU wouldn't have much impact on non-EU migration. The 'racist' element relates mainly to non-EU migration but Angela Merkel's open door policy affected some voters. Europe cannot take all of sub-Sahara's population.
NOT all those who voted 'leave' were so ill-informed, it's true, but the vote would never have got the numbers it did for an exit without the fact so many voted because when you say 'immigrant' the first thing that jumped into their minds were 'scary hordes of dark-skinned people'. the fact that caucasian immigrants were as numerous, if not more, was not an issue to them. they ate up what they were spoon fed by the leave party, because it played into their basic fears and prejudices.
and, agreed, it isn't fair to expect europe to take all of the sub-saharan refugees/immigrants - but it is mete that britain accepts the numbers they can and understand the reasons behind the mass exodus. who knows, one day brits may be in a similar situation, through global warming flooding all but the highest land making it unliveable, or other, perhaps swifter reasons. we'd expect europe or the rest of the world to accept brits fleeing for their very existence, wouldn't we?
What we voted to join was a very different organisation, not what the EU has become. David Cameron demonstrated that we had NO bargaining power inside the EU. If we had, or if the EU had recognised the democratic deficit that the EU has created across Europe, not just in the UK, then perhaps the referendum wouldn't have occurred. The EU's intransigence created this mess.
well i certainly agree with you that it's a mess!
Once Brexit is settled, one way or another, the EU has significant problems in many other constituent states that they are not addressing. The Eu's biggest fear is that Brexit will lead to other countries wanting to leave as well - unless the EU is drastically reformed. It must be accountable. It isn't.
absolutely.
i'm convinced he didn't believe it'd pass but saw it as his ticket to prime-ministership, after cameron (he expected) would make such a hash of a brexit deal that the populace would lose confidence in him, forcing a general election, and everyone would be blaming cameron and farrage for the whole mess. didn't quite work out the way he wanted, did it? that bumbling idiot act is just that - he has a very sharp brain and would have been a frightening prime minister.
