Brass tacks: Black and Woman issues.

[Pure]

We are talking about a hypothetical upcoming general election, in which Obama or Hillary is running against one of the probable Republican candidates, e.g. Romney, Guiliani, or McCain.

Though it is not the only factor, Obama's blackness counts against him, in that some voters, even those in agreement on many issues, would never vote for a black person for pres at least at this time.

Though it is not the only factor, Hillary's being a woman counts against her in that some voters, even those in agreement on many issues, would not vote for a woman as pres, at least at this time.

Which would be the greater burden in the upcoming election, in a run against any of the probable Republican white male candidates, blackness or woman-ness?

in simplistic terms, assuming equally strong candidates in other respects, democrat and republican, is blackness or woman-ness more of an issue with regard to putting off a certain significant subset of voters (causing them to vote Republican).

or, as sweetsubsarah put it, below, is racism or sexism more of a problem (for a presidential candidate who is not at white male)?

ADDED: or as emap puts it aptly: will the US have a black president before it has a female president?

ADDED NOTE: I'm NOT asking for an overall assessment of Obama or Hillary, as to chances of beating a Republican opponent. Merely about these race and gender factors. But feel free to offer any general pearls of wisdom.

 

[Guest]

Is the country more racist or more sexist do you mean?

I suppose it depends.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

America is almost ready for Obama. His race doesnt hurt him, his inexperience does. PLUS very few federal legislators ever get elected President. Kennedy was the last Senator elected President. Before him it was? Taft in 1912?

Hillary has the same problems. Inexperience and she's a Senator.

Governors get elected President. Since 1900 most Presidents were governors or Vice Presidents. Huckabee?

Hillary's problem is she pisses too many people off. She pisses off feminists and moms. She pisses off men. Bureaucrats love her.

My prediction: Huckabee gets elected and tossed out. Obama is President in 2012.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SARAH

I dont think we're racist. I think everyone is congealing behind special interest groups who advocate for them.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

America is almost ready for Obama. His race doesnt hurt him, his inexperience does. PLUS very few federal legislators ever get elected President. Kennedy was the last Senator elected President. Before him it was? Taft in 1912?

Hillary has the same problems. Inexperience and she's a Senator.

Governors get elected President. Since 1900 most Presidents were governors or Vice Presidents. Huckabee?

Hillary's problem is she pisses too many people off. She pisses off feminists and moms. She pisses off men. Bureaucrats love her.

My prediction: Huckabee gets elected and tossed out. Obama is President in 2012.

James, your contention that more governors than senators are elected President was spot on. But the last senator elected President was Hariding (1920). Taft was T Roosevelt's Sec of War when he entered the WH in 1908.

Huckabee served as Governor of Arkansas.

As to whether race or sex would play a bigger role--I have no idea.

Pedantically yours,

Rumple Foreskin

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Kennedy was Senator for Massachusetts.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Kennedy was Senator for Massachusetts.

True. I left out "prior to Kennedy." My bad.

You know, maybe we need a law that any Senator who runs for President must give up their office after the election whether they win, lose or draw. It might cut down on the number who run and get rid of the more presistent.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Pure]

it's interesting that the republicans apparently will offer as a candidate, a former mayor, and a senator, besides the usual pattern of governor (Romney).

so it could be senator against senator, or senator against mayor.

did a mayor ever become president?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

it's interesting that the republicans apparently will offer as a candidate, a former mayor, and a senator, besides the usual pattern of governor (Romney).

so it could be senator against senator, or senator against mayor.

did a mayor ever become president?

A couple had been mayors earlier in their career, but I don't believe anyone serving as mayor (Mike Bloomberg) or whose most recent office was mayor (RG) has ever been elected POTUS.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[3113]

Religious bias

Pure, I'm surprised you didn't add Romney into your poll. I think that religious bigotry might currently be stronger than racism or sexism. That would not have been true thirty years ago, but I think it is now. His being a Mormon might hurt him worse than Obama being black or Hillary being female. Likewise, the implication that Obama is Islamic (he's not, but there have been those spreading that rumor) might also hurt him. It certainly would kill his chances if he was Islamic, far more than being black would.

 

[emap]

I'm kinda torn on the whole thing. On the one hand, there almost definitely will be a woman president before a black president. On the other hand, it's Hillary Clinton.

Right now, I almost have to say whoever wins the democrat nomination is going to be president, simply because bush being a republican seriously hurts any republicans up for voting at the same time.

In other words, whoever gets the republican nomination had better do a wham bam your welcome maam campaign because he is seriously screwed.

I wouldn't vote for either of the two you mention, they are both politicians after all. I think the only non politician running is Thompson, though him being an actor doesn't make him better, they do the same thing, pander to the lowest common denominator without forming an opinion, though for them it is for a director's idea of lowest not a poll answered by 5000 people.

Maybe instead of voting for a president, we do a presidential draft, as in everybody signs up for a draft and then a name is picked at random. That person is the next president, after the term is over a new name is picked.

 

[Pure]

romney.

interesting points, 3113,

romney's mormonism will surely upset some evangelicals, the KJV types, despite romney's playing to them.

it's also worth noting that the Mormon's have cultivated a mainstream, whitebread image for decades now. things like the trial of Jeffs, the polygamist with teenage brides underscore how badly the LDS folks want respectability.

so i'd say it's entirely possible, if you close your eyes to blur the picture a bit, that romney will count essentially as a xian family man. further he's a successful business man and decent governor.

that said, romney has to win the Repug's nomination, and that crowd has more of the hardliners than the voters at large.

it might be mentioned that Romney's Massachusetts background with not be a help outside the blue states.

i'd love to see Hillary v. Romney; maybe i'll start a thread on that. it would be interesting to see if she played her Methodist card, and in subtle ways underscored that she's in the Protestant, even evangelical, mainstream while Mitt's in a properous cult with a few extra weird "saints." did you know, by the way, that many protestants decline to recognize any "saints", as a practice reeking of catholicism and elitism.

 

[Caitano]

Pure, I'm surprised you didn't add Romney into your poll. I think that religious bigotry might currently be stronger than racism or sexism. That would not have been true thirty years ago, but I think it is now. His being a Mormon might hurt him worse than Obama being black or Hillary being female. Likewise, the implication that Obama is Islamic (he's not, but there have been those spreading that rumor) might also hurt him. It certainly would kill his chances if he was Islamic, far more than being black would.

Good. Romney is a prick. He came out in favor of torture. What ever hurts Romney is to the good.

 

[Caitano]

i'd love to see Hillary v. Romney; maybe i'll start a thread on that. it would be interesting to see if she played her Methodist card, and in subtle ways underscored that she's in the Protestant, even evangelical, mainstream while Mitt's in a properous cult with a few extra weird "saints." did you know, by the way, that many protestants decline to recognize any "saints", as a practice reeking of catholicism and elitism.

Preposterous cult, you mean. The inner secrets of Mormonism are every bit as screwed up as Tom Cruise's cult. They are all going to be gods of their own planets, you know. Fact. I took the whole course.

 

[Pure]

note to caitano. note to all.

i understand, caitano,

mormonism has some 'weird' doctrines.

are they weirder than those of the RC church or those of John Calvin?

of course, the answer is that the RC church, and the descendants of John Calvin--e.g. lots of Baptists, Presbyterians-- are the vast majority in America.

ergo, it may NOT be the 'preposterousness' of mormonism that's the problem, but simply its minority position.

---
note to all.

i'm surprised i'm the only one to affirm the first alternative in the poll; i thought it was obvious that Obama's blackness will hurt him more than Hilary's being a woman. the links to Osama are an indication of the amount of irrational Obama/black hatred out there.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

3113

Hillary aint Bill. I suspect the anti-Hillary Democrats will try and stop her before she gets the nomination.

If you compare Hillary with Bush, theyre not all that different in what they support.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Looking at Hillary's Iowa strategy, viz., get the white girls to the polls. it may polarize white women and blacks if Hillary and Obama are the contenders for the nomination. If Hillary wins the blacks will stay home and watch Oprah. If Obama wins the white girls will stay home and watch CHARMED re-runs.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Heard on the news last night that a new Iowa poll (ABC/Wash. Post?) shows Obama slightly ahead of Clinton among female voters.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Guest]

Heard on the news last night that a new Iowa poll shows Obama slightly ahead of Climton among female voters.

Rumple Foreskin

It's because his pants are cut just so.

He's a hottie.



(That makes as much sense as some of the other voter rationales.)

 

[amicus]

The real question that Pure presented has not and will not be addressed by this somewhat, 'politically correct' forum, for reasons you know, but are too complicated to lay out in brief.

There will not be a 'black' President for the next thousand years at least because we all know Charlie Wrangell, and Jesse Jackson, and Martin Luther King, very low IQ, very racist, very black, unsophisticated human beings.

Only the left wing liberal media who keep thrusting black Presidents before us in Media entertainment and laughable Black supercops and heroes would even consider the possibility.

The Negro race needs a few thousand years yet to compete on equal terms with the White, or even the Asian or Hispanic, like it or not, it be truth.

So while it is in the realm of possiblity, it would be a tremendous error, one for which we would suffer greatly.

As for a woman for President?

Any man who has ever lived with a woman for an extended period of time, would never, ever, in his wildest dreams, ever place her in command of anything but the kitchen and that only under close supervision.

I know, ur gonna love this.

Amicus...

edited to add, "hey, I'm great entertainment at least and I say things y'all would never dare say or agree with, even if you did, so...gimme a break, throw coins, better yet hundred dollar bills...."

 

[Pure]

in support of my vote

ami There will not be a 'black' President for the next thousand years at least because we all know Charlie Wrangell, and Jesse Jackson, and Martin Luther King, very low IQ, very racist, very black, unsophisticated human beings.

Only the left wing liberal media who keep thrusting black Presidents before us in Media entertainment and laughable Black supercops and heroes would even consider the possibility.

The Negro race needs a few thousand years yet to compete on equal terms with the White, or even the Asian or Hispanic, like it or not, it be truth.

amicus echoes his hero:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050306080509re_/www.rebrebel.com/artists/rockwellplayboyinterview.html

PLAYBOY [Alex Haley]: The American space program isn't a segregated project, Commander. There are many Negroes working for NASA and in the space industry.

ROCKWELL: This only proves my point. A few niggers, like trained chimpanzees, have been pushed and jammed into such things as the space program by our race mixing Presidents and the Federal Government; but niggers didn't originate any of the ideas or develop the fantastic organizations capable of putting men into space. The niggers in NASA are like chimpanzees who have learned to ride bicycles. A few trained monkeys riding bicycles doesn't prove that chimpanzees could invent or build or even think about a bicycle. The fact is that the average nigger is not as intelligent as the average white man.

PLAYBOY: There's no genetic or anthropological evidence to substantiate that.

ROCKWELL: I know you're going to say you can show me thousands of intelligent niggers and stupid white men. I'm well aware that there are exceptions on both sides. All I'm saying is that the average of your people is below the average of my people; and the pure-black ones are even further below us. I have living evidence of this sitting right in front of me.

====


P: though i remain the only one to concentrate on Obama's difficulties, it's good to see evidence for my position: the spirits of Lester Maddox, and George Lincoln Rockwell are alive and thriving in the likes of amicus, who's far from a 'rare bird'.

amiAny man who has ever lived with a woman for an extended period of time, would never, ever, in his wildest dreams, ever place her in command of anything but the kitchen and that only under close supervision.

amicus is cute as little brat pulling girls' pigtails to get their attention.

 

[Liar]

The Negro race needs a few thousand years yet to compete on equal terms with the White, or even the Asian or Hispanic, like it or not, it be truth.

It be truth (or as close to truth as science can come) if ye produce reliable, neutral references to credible scientific data supporting this.

It be bigoted bullshit (or tacky flamebait), and perhaps the biggest dent in your ethos as of yet, if ye don't.


Oh, and this:

Any man who has ever lived with a woman for an extended period of time, would never, ever, in his wildest dreams, ever place her in command of anything but the kitchen and that only under close supervision.

I've lived with a woman for an extended peiod of time. And I wouldn't let her near the kitchen unless I was in the mood for food poisoning.

I would gladly have let her run the country though. As long as she didn't try to feed the people by herself, which might have constituted genocide.

 

[Guest]

It be truth (or as close to truth as science can come) if ye produce reliable, neutral references to credible scientific data supporting this.

It be bigoted bullshit (or tacky flamebait), and perhaps the biggest dent in your ethos as of yet, if ye don't.

I put ami on forever ignore after he showed his intense racism for Cerise.

Bigoted bullshit it be.

 

[Pure]

hi sarah,

i don't ignore ami because occasionally he has very revealing lapses, sometimes outbursts that show 'the nature of the beast', underneath the droll, tentative, flirty nature of many posts.

to understand the american right, you have to push them a bit, as haley did in the famous interview, above....

 

[Guest]

hi sarah,

i don't ignore ami because occasionally he has very revealing lapses, sometimes outbursts that show 'the nature of the beast', underneath the droll, tentative, flirty nature of many posts.

to understand the american right, you have to push them a bit, as haley did in the famous interview, above....

Afternoon, Pure.

I have only a very few people on ignore. Every so often I take them off and read a few posts, see if things have changed. I truly don't mind arguments or disagreements - I can even stand vitriol.

But outright racist and sexist comments, delivered in a manner not to further a discussion but merely to hurt? After that last time with him I decided enough was enough. I have far better things to do with my time.

And having those few folk on ignore makes threads such as these read so smoothly. (And there's the added perk of not seeing threads they start.)

Egg nog?