Bottoms - submissives, differences??

[njlauren]

Different mindsets...a bottom generally is someone who enjoys playing as the one who receives it, for the sheer sake of what the physical reactions do to him/her. Most (not all) pro sessions are based in that dynamic, it is basically the client telling the dom/me what makes their boat float and having it 'done' to them......

A submissive is a mindset where the person wants to give up control to the dominant, to varying degrees, the idea is in 'serving' the dominant to some level, pleasing them, it comes back as pleasure or fills a need on their end (and this is a very, very surface level description, there are more ideas on submission out there then there are people I think!). Sure in play a submissive can (and probably does) enjoy the sensation play, but it is framed around the dominant and 'serving them', pleasing them and so forth.....could even be the sub doing something they don't get off on but the dominant does, and so forth.

A sub could be a sub without being a bottom, service subs aren't into the play aspects for example, and if there is corporal it is punishment IME. Humiliation can be a part of both submission and bottoming for that matter, but it is not required, a lot of 'bottoms'/'subs' are not into humiliation (it drives me personally off the deep end, kicks up anger to the point where I am almost unable to control myself; when I read humiliation stories, especially the ones with cruel mates humiliating their spouse with other people, it makes me , to quote Martin Martian, "Very angry indeed").

To make it even more fun, you can have a sub 'topping' their dominant who is 'bottoming', which actually fits because in 'regular' top/bottom dynamics, the bottom kind of rules the roost anyway....

The labels aren't all that useful, but they can help get a grip around various styles/lifestyles in the BD/SM community to figure out what may or may not intrigue someone, worth trying, etc.....least that is how I see it.

Bottoming/Topping I believe came out of the male gay community, and referred to the kind of obvious fact that when you are getting screwed or performing oral, you often are literally on the bottom *smile*...least that is my impression.

 

[Stella_Omega]

See, that's interesting to me. I consider myself submissive as well as being ''a bottom" but am definitely NOT into humiliation. Or any severe kind of pain.
It would be more about what the other person wants and providing it for them. I rarely for example give BJs and never volunteer for them but the idea of a man (or woman) teaching me exactly what they like and how for oral pleasure, along with practice, and with men eventaully slowly to full deep-throating totally turns me on.
As does being tied up for someone to do what he or she wants to do to me. A few things I would say no to before anything would start but the rest would be up to them.

But no corny dirty talk either.

I pretty much HAVE to be tied up to receive, because I am so into topping as a service. And I LOVE to bottom. But I have to be reassured that my top doesn't want me to reciprocate, and bondage is a pretty emphatic assurance of that.

That is fine. But some people I know just don't shut up It was more the cheesy "call me master" or 'be a little girl' type stuff. Not big on role-playing along those lines as I have seen in some personals ads. I prefer to concentrate on other senses.



I hate the idea of a checklist... It would be more along the lines of - these are the things I don't want anyone to ever do (before anything even starts and it isn't much) and after that, go nuts with whatever you want to do. The choice is yours. And hope that they are adventurous and like to try new or different things. I am not comfortable pushing other people's boundaries but am comfortable with mine being pushed.
That and hygiene - don't go from ass to anything else without a wash or change of condom.

I noticed that some doms talk about 'training' and that was what I was referring to with the deep-throating - but it would be what that person likes, not me. The idea of 'being trained' turns me on...

My understanding is that the decision regarding what sexual activities are done is decided by the DOM and the submissive goes along. And more importantly not asking me, just doing it.

A bit of background: I was in my early 20s while there was all kinds of media outrage about date rape. Some legitimate in my opinion (no always means no) but some not.
So many of the guys I went to bed with were paranoid and with each next thing they did it was 'can I touch you there?' 'Can I put it in now?' 'Can I take your shirt off?'

I found it to be SUCH a turnoff. I do not even enjoy being assertive in bed.

I like whoever I am with (male or female) to take charge from the get-go. With everything.

That's actually one of the good things about checklists, it gets a whole bunch of the 'do I have permission' stuff out of the way. And it's easy to say you can just tell someone what you don't want, but you can only not want what you know about. A checklist warns you about things you wouldn't expect.

Someone like me might ask you if you want to fuck doggy style at a play party... wearing pig costumes. (So far, four women have turned me down before I finish the question )

 

[intriguedwriter]

That's actually one of the good things about checklists, it gets a whole bunch of the 'do I have permission' stuff out of the way. And it's easy to say you can just tell someone what you don't want, but you can only not want what you know about. A checklist warns you about things you wouldn't expect.

Someone like me might ask you if you want to fuck doggy style at a play party... wearing pig costumes. (So far, four women have turned me down before I finish the question )

Okay, I get what is meant by checklist...
But it would be BEFORE not during I would hope...

 

[Stella_Omega]

Okay, I get what is meant by checklist...
But it would be BEFORE not during I would hope...

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=9442423&postcount=5

 

[WildWaterNymph]

WOW - this is so timely for me.

Omega and NJ,
Thank you for shedding some light on this very complicated topic - I had no idea just how complicated. Having recently started exploring pain for pleasure and some forms of control/being controlled, I have so many questions and am confused about just what it means to be "sub."

First, is BDSM generally a lifestyle or is it situational? I love being spanked and whipped and ordered about in the bedroom, but pity the one who tries to order me to do something outside of my willing submission during sex. I mean, is the dom/sub relationship expected to continue beyond the bedroom?

For me, I love slow, tender sex just as much as being spanked and whipped (gently) and taught a lesson. So whether, in my view, I'm being a sub depends on the mood I'm in, the person I'm with and always has to be established in advance. I'd be really hurt and upset if I was making love to a man and he started whipping me and ordering me about. But when I start off asking him what my punishment is for not meeting him on time, then we both know what I'm hoping he's gonna do to me...Contrast this with my perception of a dom/sub relationship and it seems that the dom could exercise that control anywhere, anytime.

Second, I have said on this site how liberating it is to give up control...but in actuality, after reviewing posts and stories here, I'm not really giving up control at all because I am defining fairly precisely when and how my submission occurs...er, I think that is just an extension of my rather controlling personality. Which makes me question whether I'm even a "situational sub" which still implies (in my opinion) that I am ceding control to a dom. Rather, I feel much more like what you described as a dominant bottom.

Third, since I've never been with an experienced dom, the partners I have had tend to be rather passive about being a dom and have backed off when I tell them I do or don't like what they are doing. But in the BDSM sense, I get the impression a dom would not likely back off but would do what he felt I could handle, always looking out for my best interests but never letting me dictate what they are...And that, scares the hell out of me and gives me an incredible thrill - the thrill being that I could trust someone so much that I know they are doing what is good for me in some way, maybe just simply satisfying what they know are deeper desires. So I wonder if being a situational sub/dominant bottom a sort of stepping stone, or a gateway drug if you will, to the more intense form of BDSM...

The bottom line for me to finally figure out is whether I really want to explore this with an experienced Dom or am I just role playing here and should I just leave it at that.

I really really appreciate this discussion!

 

[Musthavefunk]

Superbly helpful and interesting

Give yourself a pat on the back people, this is a great thread !!!
I've read every post and enjoyed every question and answer and found them very helpful undead !!

Yours sincerely
Sin cerely yours

MusthaveFunk

 

[Stella_Omega]

Haha WWNymph, that's like a whole bible's wort of questions you're asking there...
And youve answered a lot of them for youself;

First, is BDSM generally a lifestyle or is it situational? I love being spanked and whipped and ordered about in the bedroom, but pity the one who tries to order me to do something outside of my willing submission during sex.

In that case, it's situational for you. And you will want to be sure that it is also situational for whoever you get involved with.

I mean, is the dom/sub relationship expected to continue beyond the bedroom?

Some people do, and some people wish they could, and some people simply don't want to do it that way. Depends on the partners and what they want-- it sure as hell doesn't depend on what anyone else wants them to want.


Gateway drug, well, i dunno. I don't remember if I said it in this thread, but there's a huge difference between bottoming with someone that you have to train, and bottoming with someone that has been trained. On a good partner, you can totally expect him to do for you, and if what you want is to be put on your knees and he knows that-- You can drop your gurad and let him control you. or something like that.

 

[WildWaterNymph]

Haha WWNymph, that's like a whole bible's wort of questions you're asking there...

yeah - i got a little overexcited when I read this thread, but still the burning question, "can I?" and "do I?"

On a good partner, you can totally expect him to do for you, and if what you want is to be put on your knees and he knows that-- You can drop your gurad and let him control you. or something like that.

Yes - that does sound amazing with the right person, whether or not he/she is a dom. So I'll have to hope I can find him. Otherwise, it sounds like it could go horribly bad...for him I mean...

BTW - I love reading your posts - always so thoughtful! Thanks...

 

[njlauren]

wwnymph-


The answer to your question is that BD/SM, D/s (dominance and submission) and the like are what you make of them what works for you, as Stella said. The only rules (other then safety ones) are ones that work for you.

With BD/SM as straight play (topping/bottoming, whatever) the scenes are negotiated so the top and bottom get what they want out of it, it is relatively straightforward in that sense.

With D/s the lines blur, because technically after all in theory a sub is supposed to do anything the dominant wants, no matter what (and there are people who in fact live like that, where the dominant has absolute control...). In my experience, though, even in a D/s the sub has a lot of control still, depending on the relationship the amount varies. 50 shades of gray may be shit in some ways, but the one truth is that in a D/s the level of control is negotiated, even in a total control the sub has agreed to that. Through negotiations the bounds are worked out, if they have a safeword the dominant has to respect that, if the sub sets absolute limits they are to be respected (otherwise why have them), for non absolute limits there are guidelines they set up on how the limit is approached and so forth.....just because a D/s is not complete doesn't make it any less 'authentic' then someone else's. Likewise, if you want it in the bedroom only within limits, that is your version of it, if you find you want to be controlled outside the bedroom, mazel ton.....

This will probably get some a bit mffed at me, but to me an experienced dominant cannot claim a sub who is learning and expect them to follow everything perfectly, nor can they expect a sub to do things simply because the dominant wants them to, inexperienced subs have to be brought along (I don't really like the word training, to be honest, it smacks too much of training a 'dumb beast' to do what you want, YMMV). An experienced dominant with a novice sub who doesn't recognize that they aren't in the space of fulfilling all his/her desires is going to be disappointed I think (and for the record, having known a lot of very experienced dominants, people who are in TPE's and the like, most of them would prob agree with me).

My viewpoint is it may be better to find someone who is curious or seems wired as a dominant maybe even be better then an experienced one, in that you can kind of grow together and find your own particular thing organically. It can get messy, there may be missteps and things that don't work, but on the other hand, when the whole thing is grown between two people, rather then an experienced person 'bringing' the novice along, you get something that is an awesome mix of both people, rather then someone trained in the image of the other.

If you take anything from this thread, it should be that what matters is what works for you and those you may end up exploring this with, the labels or what others say, including myself, are only helpful tools to conceptualize things, but the rubber hits the road (or your butt, rubber floggers are fun!) with where you guys go with it.

 

[JM100]

Hi Angie!
Topping and bottoming refer to relative roles in activities. Dom and sub refer to relative roles in relationships. When two people are fucking, there is usually one person who is active and one who is receptive. In SM activities, one person is doing unto, and one is being done unto.

The active person is the top, the receptive person is the bottom.

In the relationships that we define as D/s, one person's preferences and desires define the relationship, and the other person allows the relationship to be defined by their partner. We say the sub has given their power to the dom.

Now although many people are tops-- not all tops are doms. Likewise, not all bottoms are subs.

Many people know what they want to feel, and how they want to feel it, and many people get a lot of pleasure out of providing sensation for someone else. This kind of dynamic is sometimes misunderstood in current BDSM parlance, and folks who know how they want to be done are often called "Bossy bottoms," or SAM's ("Smart Ass Masochists") or "Pillow Princesses" or other things, but what they are is "Dominant Bottoms."

Tops who want to provide what such a person wants to feel get told that they are wimps, or not really Doms-- and in fact, they are not Doms. They are "Service Tops," and IMO, that's a mighty fine and honorable position to claim.

Why is this important to the BDSm community and people like yourself?

The big problem that arises from this misunderstanding and the resulting social expectations, is that people-- women in particular-- believe that they want to be submissive and owned because of their desire for sensation when what they really want is to have a whole lot of attention paid to them. And when a service top-- whose real intent is to serve-- thinks that he has to be the boss in all things, when in fact he might not be suited for that role at all.

Oh this is a really great post Stella. Thanks! I've finally understood the difference.

 

[WildWaterNymph]

wwnymph-


The answer to your question is that BD/SM, D/s (dominance and submission) and the like are what you make of them what works for you, as Stella said. The only rules (other then safety ones) are ones that work for you.

With BD/SM as straight play (topping/bottoming, whatever) the scenes are negotiated so the top and bottom get what they want out of it, it is relatively straightforward in that sense.

With D/s the lines blur, because technically after all in theory a sub is supposed to do anything the dominant wants, no matter what (and there are people who in fact live like that, where the dominant has absolute control...). In my experience, though, even in a D/s the sub has a lot of control still, depending on the relationship the amount varies. 50 shades of gray may be shit in some ways, but the one truth is that in a D/s the level of control is negotiated, even in a total control the sub has agreed to that. Through negotiations the bounds are worked out, if they have a safeword the dominant has to respect that, if the sub sets absolute limits they are to be respected (otherwise why have them), for non absolute limits there are guidelines they set up on how the limit is approached and so forth.....just because a D/s is not complete doesn't make it any less 'authentic' then someone else's. Likewise, if you want it in the bedroom only within limits, that is your version of it, if you find you want to be controlled outside the bedroom, mazel ton.....

This will probably get some a bit mffed at me, but to me an experienced dominant cannot claim a sub who is learning and expect them to follow everything perfectly, nor can they expect a sub to do things simply because the dominant wants them to, inexperienced subs have to be brought along (I don't really like the word training, to be honest, it smacks too much of training a 'dumb beast' to do what you want, YMMV). An experienced dominant with a novice sub who doesn't recognize that they aren't in the space of fulfilling all his/her desires is going to be disappointed I think (and for the record, having known a lot of very experienced dominants, people who are in TPE's and the like, most of them would prob agree with me).

My viewpoint is it may be better to find someone who is curious or seems wired as a dominant maybe even be better then an experienced one, in that you can kind of grow together and find your own particular thing organically. It can get messy, there may be missteps and things that don't work, but on the other hand, when the whole thing is grown between two people, rather then an experienced person 'bringing' the novice along, you get something that is an awesome mix of both people, rather then someone trained in the image of the other.

If you take anything from this thread, it should be that what matters is what works for you and those you may end up exploring this with, the labels or what others say, including myself, are only helpful tools to conceptualize things, but the rubber hits the road (or your butt, rubber floggers are fun!) with where you guys go with it.

NJLauren -
I'm so so very glad for this thread. I have been feeling that there is a certain way of being a sub and I'm not sure I can give myself up to that, primarily because I have not established the trust that would be necessary for me to know that my dom is not going to do anything that will humiliate me, will not take advantage of me, will not use his position for anything other than our mutual sexual pleasure - I hope I will find someone that I can totally trust, but for now, it is very good to hear that there are a millions shades (not just fifty) of the sub persona and I shouldn't try to push myself to be a certain kind of sub until I feel ready and comfortable.

And thanks for the tip on rubber floggers - I can't wait to try them...

 

[sweetsoccermom]

happy feet dance!

This has been the single most helpful thread I have read here!

I've been feeling more submissive to hubby in some ways, but definitely identify more with the dominant bottom role as explored here. What a wonderful path this is! Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts. Can't wait to discuss this concept more at home