Boss-Employee Gap Legislation

[Ishmael]

I think it's a reasonable burden.

I think people have a simplified sense of how the market works. "Up is good" is the rule for most. "I am going to buy that because they went up and that means they might go up" is the model.

It's entirely too simplistic and has to do with the stockholder making money only, which is fine for what it is.

However, if a stockholder wishes to become more sophisticated and wants to check other indicators such as ... is it going up because it is utilizing business practices that are predatory and greedy? Is it going up because it is just really good at what it does and it still pays people well? Is it going up because people just buy what is going up so therefore always appear to be going up even if you are essentially cooking the books because down is the end of the world?

It's part of a way of looking at stocks and business plans in a more sophisticated way and making investments in something at its actual value, and not contributing to creating unrealistic bubble expectations.

What's really going on is complicated and shouldn't be measured by "up"

If we're obsessed with up and we can have constant feedback by seconds based o how up or down something is, it's not too much of a burden to provide one number a year used as a separate indicator of company health.

And what does this proposal have to do with any of that? Seriously, exactly what? People are paid what they're worth for the labor they provide. The laws of economic do not go into abatement. Jobs that require little skill are just not going to pay all that well. Trying to turn meaningless numbers into some sort of social statement is merely catering to the economically ignorant and those that try to manipulate them.

Remember several years ago the big dust up over Kathy Lee Gifford's clothing line? The factory in Haiti where the employees were only paid $15/day? Annualized that was like $3,600/yr in a nation where the average annual income was on the order of $460/yr. Those employees were wealthy by the standards of their nation. But a huge PR campaign was mounted and funded by the garment workers unions with the result being that the factory was closed down. Yeah buddy, we sure helped those folks in Haiti. And the entire campaign was organized around "greed" and "predatory" use of labor, or at least that was how the press releases played it. Absolutely no consideration was given to the relative differences in costs of living. And 100's of lives were destroyed in the interests of "doing good." The reality was that the garment workers unions wanted to shut the Haitian factories down on the presumption that the work would return to the US. That didn't work either.

Economic ignorance coupled with avarice are ugly qualities to behold.

Ishmael

 

[Recidiva]

Ascription. The fallacy of none or all. If you do not like my little-bitty eansie weanie meaningless (well nearly, to 99.99% of investors interested purely in the profit motive) governmental improvement in our lives, THEN YOU DON'T WANT ANY GOVERNMENT AT ALL!!!

Yes, but how may other people out there want their own teensy but of red tape?

Sometimes it comes in big chunks, like the ACA which the President prefers to call Obamacare.

How can you measure the value of knowing that company books are sounder than they were before? Of no more overnight bankruptcies with the employees and retirees left holding the bag? No more disruption to entire sectors of the economy?
Michael Oxley 2002
Co-Author of Sarbanes-Oxley Law
(Jon Corzine, co-sponsor)

It will take the next economic crisis, as certainly it will come, to determine whether or not the provisions of this bill will actually provide this generation or the next generation of regulators with the tools necessary to minimize the effects of that crisis.
Chris Dodd
Co-Author Dodd-Frank Financial Reform Act
Friend of Angelo

“And guess what this liberal will be all about? This liberal will be all about socializing, uh, uh… would be about basically about taking over the government running all of your companies.”
Maxine Waters

"We’ve had a government takeover of the bond market. Stealth socialism’s been created. Government simply ends up owning more and more and more. If government had taken over the steel industry, maybe it would have been more noticeable. They’ve taken over the financing of housing industry as well, with a desired result."
Alan Grayson

Yup. I'm the bad gal here. I ascribe positions to you that you've described yourself and that I humorously (Reci?! HUMOR?!) inflate to poke fun at you and that means I'm completely literal.

Again, protesteth too much. You have certainly told me what I think enough times that even if I were doing what you are saying I'm doing, you'd deserve it about 400x more before we'd approach even. (Look! More inflation of a concept! She probably didn't count those 400x! Slander!)

You can't use humor yourself and then decide that someone else is out of line when they do the exact same thing you do, only less and not as offensive.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

On a little government, just a teensie-weinsie little law...


There is black and white, and if you refuse to believe that, then you will accept grey and let me tell you gray tends to black for when you say ∃ of anything is a good function of government then ∃ is everything ¬∀ and while you may be able to advocate for ∃ you won't be allowed to define it and in this manner its limit will be ∀ for ∑f(∪∃)i [i=from you to the total population] will never tend to ∅ by definition so it is easy to see that it is, indeed, an ∀ or ∅ when it comes to government. (Now, the ∑f(∩∃)i [i=from you to the total population] will tend to ∅ but that is politically unattainable for the obvious reason that the more ∃ is defined, the smaller the ∩∃ becomes.)
A_J, the Stupid


That is one of the reasons they hate Objectivism as a philosophy.

 

[Recidiva]

And what does this proposal have to do with any of that? Seriously, exactly what? People are paid what they're worth for the labor they provide. The laws of economic do not go into abatement. Jobs that require little skill are just not going to pay all that well. Trying to turn meaningless numbers into some sort of social statement is merely catering to the economically ignorant and those that try to manipulate them.

Remember several years ago the big dust up over Kathy Lee Gifford's clothing line? The factory in Haiti where the employees were only paid $15/day? Annualized that was like $3,600/yr in a nation where the average annual income was on the order of $460/yr. Those employees were wealthy by the standards of their nation. But a huge PR campaign was mounted and funded by the garment workers unions with the result being that the factory was closed down. Yeah buddy, we sure helped those folks in Haiti. And the entire campaign was organized around "greed" and "predatory" use of labor, or at least that was how the press releases played it. Absolutely no consideration was given to the relative differences in costs of living. And 100's of lives were destroyed in the interests of "doing good." The reality was that the garment workers unions wanted to shut the Haitian factories down on the presumption that the work would return to the US. That didn't work either.

Economic ignorance coupled with avarice are ugly qualities to behold.

Ishmael

People are paid what the business owner decides is their worth, they are not paid what they deserve.

Stockholders can do the same and pay company owners what they decide is their worth, and not what they deserve.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Yup. I'm the bad gal here. I ascribe positions to you that you've described yourself and that I humorously (Reci?! HUMOR?!) inflate to poke fun at you and that means I'm completely literal.

Again, protesteth too much. You have certainly told me what I think enough times that even if I were doing what you are saying I'm doing, you'd deserve it about 400x more before we'd approach even. (Look! More inflation of a concept! She probably didn't count those 400x! Slander!)

You can't use humor yourself and then decide that someone else is out of line when they do the exact same thing you do, only less and not as offensive.

When have I said that I want no government?

Just this morning I began by saying that the truly selfish individual engages in cooperation and division of labor.

I am a great fan of objective government, limited in scope and an avowed enemy of subjective beneficent government that operates under the assumption that it is there to make my life better with positive interferences.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

People are paid what the business owner decides is their worth, they are not paid what they deserve.

Stockholders can do the same and pay company owners what they decide is their worth, and not what they deserve.

He does not operate in a vacuum if another business owner decides that worker has more value to him.

Boards pay executives, business owners pay business owners and investors pick the companies that they believe will deliver the best profit over a certain amount of time. No one that I know of, outside of you, invests in the name of better pay. A company will give better pay to retain the type of labor it needs and if the labor it needs is low, then paying it a high wage is stupid.

But, if the moral busybodies of social justice continue to interfere with minimum wages and fairness metrics, they may simply resort to automation putting even more workers out on the streets.

 

[Recidiva]

When have I said that I want no government?

Just this morning I began by saying that the truly selfish individual engages in cooperation and division of labor.

I am a great fan of objective government, limited in scope and an avowed enemy of subjective beneficent government that operates under the assumption that it is there to make my life better with positive interferences.

You voted for Obama because you hate him.

I have never seen you support any legislation at all.

You don't have any respect for the process. I have some respect but not much, and when I try to use my influence to make even tiny incremental changes, you're not interested in their value, you just want to tell me how stupid I am for trying to do anything.

I judge you by your stated actions and your stated opinions.

I wouldn't vote for somebody I hated just to give the world the Armageddon I thought they deserve. And then be disappointed when they didn't get it.

You can be petty and vengeful and righteous about all the wrong things, and then try to lecture someone else on how they should be like you, and it's not offensive, but it is not deserving of respect.

 

[unregistered]

 

[RobDownSouth]

I have a degree in math.

It is not math, it is economics and economics is a branch of Sociology, the study of Human Action and therefore it is a form of Social Engineering, your attempt to guide business towards your sense of morality.

Most people would define economics as the branch of knowledge concerned with the production, consumption, and transfer of wealth.

Redefining economics to be "Human Action and therefore a form of Social Engineering" suggests an agenda.

 

[unregistered]

 

[trysail]

No. of  Shares: 1
Current Price: $2,500,000 	
Stockholder's Equity: $2,000,000		
Terminal Price/Book Value: 1.25×
Book Value= $2,000,000.00	
"Normalized" Earnings:   $240,000
EPS= $240,000.00
ROE= 12.0%
Payout Ratio: 33%	
Terminal P/E Ratio:	12
_______________________________
																					
				2013	         2014	         2015	          2016	         2017	         2018	         2019	         2020	         2021	         2022	         2023	         2024	         2025	         2026	         2027	         2028	         2029	         2030	         2031	         2032	         2033
																
Beginning Book Value:		 2,000,000 	 2,160,000 	 2,332,800 	 2,519,424 	 2,720,978 	 2,938,656 	 3,173,749 	 3,427,649 	 3,701,860 	 3,998,009 	 4,317,850 	 4,663,278 	 5,036,340 	 5,439,247 	 5,874,387 	 6,344,338 	 6,851,885 	 7,400,036 	 7,992,039 	 8,631,402 	 9,321,914 
Earnings:	                   240,000 	 259,200 	 279,936 	 302,331 	 326,517 	 352,639 	 380,850 	 411,318 	 444,223 	 479,761 	 518,142 	 559,593 	 604,361 	 652,710 	 704,926 	 761,321 	 822,226 	 888,004 	 959,045 	 1,035,768 	 1,118,630 
Dividend:	                    80,000 	 86,400 	 93,312 	 100,777 	 108,839 	 117,546 	 126,950 	 137,106 	 148,074 	 159,920 	 172,714 	 186,531 	 201,454 	 217,570 	 234,975 	 253,774 	 274,075 	 296,001 	 319,682 	 345,256 	 372,877 
Ending Book Value:		 2,160,000 	 2,332,800 	 2,519,424 	 2,720,978 	 2,938,656 	 3,173,749 	 3,427,649 	 3,701,860 	 3,998,009 	 4,317,850 	 4,663,278 	 5,036,340 	 5,439,247 	 5,874,387 	 6,344,338 	 6,851,885 	 7,400,036 	 7,992,039 	 8,631,402 	 9,321,914 	 10,067,667 
[COLOR="Blue"]Cash Flow:	               (2,500,000)	 86,400 	 93,312 	 100,777 	 108,839 	 117,546 	 126,950 	 137,106 	 148,074 	 159,920 	 172,714 	 186,531 	 201,454 	 217,570 	 234,975 	 253,774 	 274,075 	 296,001 	 319,682 	 345,256 	 13,404,913[/COLOR] 
		

Thus,  IRR=	8.33%

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You voted for Obama because you hate him.

I have never seen you support any legislation at all.

You don't have any respect for the process. I have some respect but not much, and when I try to use my influence to make even tiny incremental changes, you're not interested in their value, you just want to tell me how stupid I am for trying to do anything.

I judge you by your stated actions and your stated opinions.

I wouldn't vote for somebody I hated just to give the world the Armageddon I thought they deserve. And then be disappointed when they didn't get it.

You can be petty and vengeful and righteous about all the wrong things, and then try to lecture someone else on how they should be like you, and it's not offensive, but it is not deserving of respect.

Bush tax cuts.

It's useless to argue free market economics with those who do not understand them or the liberty it supports.

No, it is useful. It is a whet stone.

 

[Recidiva]

In America we have equality of rights, not an equality of condition that requires the re-distribution of wealth and property, which the founders properly understood it to be destructive of liberty.

In America we have a legislative process that occasionally fucks up royally and occasionally gets things right. I think this is one of those right things and find the offended dudgeon to be amusing and irrational.

 

[Recidiva]

Bush tax cuts.

Yes, you support when something goes away. But you will not admit when something is added, it might be a good thing. Support of legislation that eliminates legislation is completely in keeping with your philosophy.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I'm not calling you stupid.


I am calling you altruistic assuming that your motive is as pure as the wind-driven snow.

I just cannot see how it gets you what you want.

It will certainly not make you a better investor.

It will make you feel good about your investments.


That is the subjective vs the objective.

You do not see me agreeing with very much legislation because it is all subjective. Sans objective analysis all that we have to measure our government by is intentions, not results. The former is always good, the latter, not so much...

 

[Recidiva]

I'm not calling you stupid.


I am calling you altruistic assuming that your motive is as pure as the wind-driven snow.

I just cannot see how it gets you what you want.

It will certainly not make you a better investor.

It will make you feel good about your investments.


That is the subjective vs the objective.

You do not see me agreeing with very much legislation because it is all subjective. Sans objective analysis all that we have to measure our government by is intentions, not results. The former is always good, the latter, not so much...

I am not pure. Take that back. That is truly offensive and I don't take that kind of crap from anybody.

If you don't get why I'm doing what I'm doing then that's fine. But you should at least characterize it properly if I'm going to imagine you have the slightest idea what I'm talking about.

 

[unregistered]

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Yes, you support when something goes away. But you will not admit when something is added, it might be a good thing. Support of legislation that eliminates legislation is completely in keeping with your philosophy.

Huh?

What did I support 'going away?'

Yes. We are over-legislated and over taxed and government is not maintaining a fair market place it is maintaining a political market place with rules that punish in advance for infractions that are imagined will take place since everyone in business is out to get the little guy, especially rw-radical idiots like tat Joe, the Plumber guy...

Ex: We do not heed to add hate-crime to murder.

99% of murder is not 'love.'

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I am not pure. Take that back. That is truly offensive and I don't take that kind of crap from anybody.

If you don't get why I'm doing what I'm doing then that's fine. But you should at least characterize it properly if I'm going to imagine you have the slightest idea what I'm talking about.

Then let me quote ZZ Top, "pure as the driven slush..."

Better?

 

[Recidiva]

Then let me quote ZZ Top, "pure as the driven slush..."

Better?

They used to call me Snow White...until I drifted...

But really, nobody ever called me Snow White.

It's possibly kind of sweet that you think you should protect me from the evils of the world while simultaneously accusing me of being that evil in the world, but really, I'm okay. There's no need to get upset on my account.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

In a free market environment, any legislative intervention that attempts to alter the laws of economics fucks up royally most of the time. The millions of interventions engaged in by our legislative process is the reason why business has been beaten down and chased out of the country.

Oh no, just a few more programs, some training, some education, some fairness metrics and the economy will roar to life!




Government improves your life DAMNIT! Can't you see that we're here to help you???





The technique of these parties is based on the division of society into producers and consumers. They are also wont to make use of the usual hypostasis of the state in questions of fiscal policy that enables them to advocate new expenditures to be paid out of the public treasury without any particular concern on their part over how such expenses are to be defrayed, and at the same time to complain about the heavy burden of taxes.
The other basic defect of these parties is that the demands they raise for each particular group are limitless. There is, in their eyes, only one limit to the quantity to be demanded: the resistance put up by the other side. This is entirely keeping with their character as parties striving for privileges on behalf of special interests. Yet parties that follow no definite program, but come into conflict in the pursuit of unlimited desires for privileges on behalf of some and for legal disabilities for others, must bring about the destruction of every political system.
Ludwig von Mises

 

[trysail]

	ROE=	ROE=	ROE=	ROE=	ROE=	ROE=	
	12.0%	11.5%	11.0%	10.5%	10.0%	9.5%	
DiscountPresent	         Present	Present         Present	        Present	        Present	        Current
Rate	Value	         Value	        Value	        Value	        Value	        Value	        Price
5.00%	$10,165,099.62 	$8,907,690.68 	$7,787,932.89 	$6,792,111.38 	$5,907,770.87 	$5,123,608.39 	2,500,000 
5.25%	9,692,940.13 	8,493,936.68 	7,426,190.60 	6,476,624.08 	5,633,360.37 	4,885,621.52 	2,500,000 
5.50%	9,243,755.03 	8,100,315.16 	7,082,050.01 	6,176,487.80 	5,372,302.16 	4,659,214.63 	2,500,000 
5.75%	8,816,375.92 	7,725,802.26 	6,754,615.95 	5,890,921.83 	5,123,917.20 	4,443,798.82 	2,500,000 
6.00%	8,409,696.35 	7,369,428.40 	6,443,040.73 	5,619,186.87 	4,887,562.44 	4,238,816.39 	2,500,000 
6.25%	8,022,668.48 	7,030,275.34 	6,146,521.53 	5,360,582.77 	4,662,628.88 	4,043,739.17 	2,500,000 
6.50%	7,654,299.74 	6,707,473.32 	5,864,297.93 	5,114,446.32 	4,448,539.68 	3,858,066.90 	2,500,000 
6.75%	7,303,649.89 	6,400,198.37 	5,595,649.56 	4,880,149.28 	4,244,748.37 	3,681,325.64 	2,500,000 
7.00%	6,969,828.10 	6,107,669.88 	5,339,893.90 	4,657,096.39 	4,050,737.22 	3,513,066.38 	2,500,000 
7.25%	6,651,990.24 	5,829,148.13 	5,096,384.25 	4,444,723.64 	3,866,015.64 	3,352,863.65 	2,500,000 
7.50%	6,349,336.37 	5,563,932.13 	4,864,507.72 	4,242,496.53 	3,690,118.72 	3,200,314.25 	2,500,000 
7.75%	6,061,108.30 	5,311,357.48 	4,643,683.43 	4,049,908.43 	3,522,605.81 	3,055,036.01 	2,500,000 
8.00%	5,786,587.32 	5,070,794.37 	4,433,360.75 	3,866,479.13 	3,363,059.22 	2,916,666.68 	2,500,000 
8.25%	5,525,092.08 	4,841,645.73 	4,233,017.67 	3,691,753.37 	3,211,082.94 	2,784,862.83 	2,500,000 
8.50%	5,275,976.55 	4,623,345.46 	4,042,159.24 	3,525,299.48 	3,066,301.54 	2,659,298.85 	2,500,000 
8.75%	5,038,628.14 	4,415,356.72 	3,860,316.11 	3,366,708.13 	2,928,358.96 	2,539,665.96 	2,500,000 
9.00%	4,812,465.86 	4,217,170.41 	3,687,043.17 	3,215,591.13 	2,796,917.56 	2,425,671.31 	2,500,000 
9.25%	4,596,938.65 	4,028,303.62 	3,521,918.23 	3,071,580.26 	2,671,657.07 	2,317,037.15 	2,500,000 
9.50%	4,391,523.76 	3,848,298.27 	3,364,540.79 	2,934,326.24 	2,552,273.67 	2,213,500.00 	2,500,000 
9.75%	4,195,725.26 	3,676,719.77 	3,214,530.89 	2,803,497.69 	2,438,479.15 	2,114,809.88 	2,500,000 
10.00%	4,009,072.57 	3,513,155.77 	3,071,528.00 	2,678,780.18 	2,330,000.00 	2,020,729.62 	2,500,000 
10.25%	3,831,119.14 	3,357,214.93 	2,935,190.00 	2,559,875.35 	2,226,576.71 	1,931,034.12 	2,500,000 
10.50%	3,661,441.17 	3,208,525.89 	2,805,192.19 	2,446,500.00 	2,127,962.96 	1,845,509.77 	2,500,000 
10.75%	3,499,636.38 	3,066,736.14 	2,681,226.38 	2,338,385.36 	2,033,924.96 	1,763,953.82 	2,500,000 
11.00%	3,345,322.91 	2,931,511.04 	2,563,000.00 	2,235,276.26 	1,944,240.78 	1,686,173.79 	2,500,000

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

They used to call me Snow White...until I drifted...

But really, nobody ever called me Snow White.

It's possibly kind of sweet that you think you should protect me from the evils of the world while simultaneously accusing me of being that evil in the world, but really, I'm okay. There's no need to get upset on my account.

I do not want to protect anybody.

As you said before, I voted for Obama to help give them what they were voting for, and...

THEY GOT IT!

Now, thank me.

 

[Recidiva]

Huh?

What did I support 'going away?'

Yes. We are over-legislated and over taxed and government is not maintaining a fair market place it is maintaining a political market place with rules that punish in advance for infractions that are imagined will take place since everyone in business is out to get the little guy, especially rw-radical idiots like tat Joe, the Plumber guy...

Ex: We do not heed to add hate-crime to murder.

99% of murder is not 'love.'

I agree that Joe the Plumber was an idiot and that my time shouldn't be wasted talking about his opinion.

I also think that there's no need to classify certain crimes as hate crimes, just deal with the crime. However, there's no real need to be that upset about the label in the first place. People will be punished according to the actual crime and the victim will be just as dead or traumatized.

Although there is no need necessarily, it is significant to classify crimes in a forensic sense so if it's fair to characterize a perpetrator as organized or disorganized in their method or manner, it's fair to characters a crime in the same manner, driven by hate as the motive or driven by self interest in profit.

There is some point to it, although it may not necessarily be a point worth making. It has some value.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

And what does this proposal have to do with any of that? Seriously, exactly what? People are paid what they're worth for the labor they provide. The laws of economic do not go into abatement. Jobs that require little skill are just not going to pay all that well. Trying to turn meaningless numbers into some sort of social statement is merely catering to the economically ignorant and those that try to manipulate them.

Remember several years ago the big dust up over Kathy Lee Gifford's clothing line? The factory in Haiti where the employees were only paid $15/day? Annualized that was like $3,600/yr in a nation where the average annual income was on the order of $460/yr. Those employees were wealthy by the standards of their nation. But a huge PR campaign was mounted and funded by the garment workers unions with the result being that the factory was closed down. Yeah buddy, we sure helped those folks in Haiti. And the entire campaign was organized around "greed" and "predatory" use of labor, or at least that was how the press releases played it. Absolutely no consideration was given to the relative differences in costs of living. And 100's of lives were destroyed in the interests of "doing good." The reality was that the garment workers unions wanted to shut the Haitian factories down on the presumption that the work would return to the US. That didn't work either.

Economic ignorance coupled with avarice are ugly qualities to behold.

Ishmael

Youre debating pot.