Blanket response

[twelveoone]

well I couldn't submit it to stories because it has no character development and it does have a rhythm...

Everything has a rhythm, whether you realize it or not, and you can try to DEFINE a moment in a unique and novel way. I believe that is what poetry is all about.

I can't leave comments because....

BULLSHIT, you want sympathy from me? I have trouble enough.

I submit (alot of stuff) because I want honest feedback.

1. Sorry, the best feedback loop is internal, and every godamn poet worth anything here will tell you it is more important to read than write. Try it. Here is a clue, go to something that has a comment or two, agree, disagree? Why? Pretty goddamn simple.
2. I don't, some others don't (submit a lot of stuff), but did it ever occur that maybe, just maybe, that is why we turn the comments on, when we do? Hello!

You are a condescending arrogant prick.

Who better to judge
Tu le connais, lecteur, ce monstre délicat,
— Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!-Baudelaire


ROFL

Consider the cost? Do you want a detailed analysis as to why your poetry sucks. Here is a freebie, and most people won't tell you this flat out. Because its boring. Why is it boring, because it's like so much other, only the so much other is better. Which is why I recommend reading other submissions, if they are boring, perhaps you won't be so inclined to bore others, eh?

BTW, I suspect one the of the reasons of the noncommentables may be the ol multiple alt syndrome.

Make what you will of it.

 

[butters]

well I couldn't submit it to stories because it has no character development and it does have a rhythm...

Everything has a rhythm, whether you realize it or not, and you can try to DEFINE a moment in a unique and novel way. I believe that is what poetry is all about.

I can't leave comments because....

BULLSHIT, you want sympathy from me? I have trouble enough.

I submit (alot of stuff) because I want honest feedback.

1. Sorry, the best feedback loop is internal, and every godamn poet worth anything here will tell you it is more important to read than write. Try it. Here is a clue, go to something that has a comment or two, agree, disagree? Why? Pretty goddamn simple.
2. I don't, some others don't (submit a lot of stuff), but did it ever occur that maybe, just maybe, that is why we turn the comments on, when we do? Hello!

You are a condescending arrogant prick.

Who better to judge
Tu le connais, lecteur, ce monstre délicat,
— Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!-Baudelaire


ROFL

Consider the cost? Do you want a detailed analysis as to why your poetry sucks. Here is a freebie, and most people won't tell you this flat out. Because its boring. Why is it boring, because it's like so much other, only the so much other is better. Which is why I recommend reading other submissions, if they are boring, perhaps you won't be so inclined to bore others, eh?

BTW, I suspect one the of the reasons of the noncommentables may be the ol multiple alt syndrome.

Make what you will of it.

license to rake in the cash

$20-$30 per entrant? and how many entrants? how many books/zines published & then sold on to entrants?

*shakes head*

some might be worth going for if your writing is of the calibre or genre being sought, but the majority of poets tend to submit almost blindly 'hey! i have a great poem! it needs publishing! i will send it here, here, and here!' 'oh... i didn't win ... they suck.'

and that's where people should look and appreciate the value of sites like Lit. free feedback. weed out the chaff from the detritus, read read read and above all THINK.

 

[bogusagain]

Because its boring. Why is it boring, because it's like so much other, only the so much other is better. Which is why I recommend reading other submissions, if they are boring, perhaps you won't be so inclined to bore others, eh?

I have a wall full of poetry books published by what are thought of as top publishers which are just so politie, it makes one want to apologise for reading them. So if boring poetry is published, it is no surprise people write boring poetry because they think it is good. Technically good maybe but is that really good?

Sorry for not being around much and commenting but I've got art assessments over the next few weeks which are starving me of time. That and I'm trying to write something different. An old project that I've been inspired to take up again.

 

[butters]

I have a wall full of poetry books published by what are thought of as top publishers which are just so politie, it makes one want to apologise for reading them. So if boring poetry is published, it is no surprise people write boring poetry because they think it is good. Technically good maybe but is that really good?

Sorry for not being around much and commenting but I've got art assessments over the next few weeks which are starving me of time. That and I'm trying to write something different. An old project that I've been inspired to take up again.

well good luck with your projects, and it's always a pleasure to read you or see you visiting

 

[Angeline]

I have a wall full of poetry books published by what are thought of as top publishers which are just so politie, it makes one want to apologise for reading them. So if boring poetry is published, it is no surprise people write boring poetry because they think it is good. Technically good maybe but is that really good?

Sorry for not being around much and commenting but I've got art assessments over the next few weeks which are starving me of time. That and I'm trying to write something different. An old project that I've been inspired to take up again.

I've heard that Pablo Neruda sells the most poetry books and has for quite a while, more than Ginsberg, even, though probably not as much as anthologies. I happen to like Neruda a lot, but I think Ginsberg is a better poet and took more chances, put himself out there more honestly in his poetry. Overall I think the general populace, if they have interest in poetry to begin with, like to stay with the safer stuff: the pretty love poems, the bathetic, the purple prose.

I'm still lurking most days as I'm trying not to type much (until I make a more ergonomic office arrangement, anyway). I hope to resolve that before too much longer. I want to write--and if I write I know I'll leave comments again, too.

 

[twelveoone]

license to rake in the cash

$20-$30 per entrant? and how many entrants? how many books/zines published & then sold on to entrants?

*shakes head*

some might be worth going for if your writing is of the calibre or genre being sought, but the majority of poets tend to submit almost blindly 'hey! i have a great poem! it needs publishing! i will send it here, here, and here!' 'oh... i didn't win ... they suck.'

and that's where people should look and appreciate the value of sites like Lit. free feedback. weed out the chaff from the detritus, read read read and above all THINK.

Oh, yeah, I forgot that one. THINK.
BTW, these were composites, not specific emails. No one ever called me a prick, yet.

 

[twelveoone]

I have a wall full of poetry books published by what are thought of as top publishers which are just so politie, it makes one want to apologise for reading them. So if boring poetry is published, it is no surprise people write boring poetry because they think it is good. Technically good maybe but is that really good?

Sorry for not being around much and commenting but I've got art assessments over the next few weeks which are starving me of time. That and I'm trying to write something different. An old project that I've been inspired to take up again.

In some grant money pubs about half of the material is not even technically good.
Years ago, I made the claim some here are better than some out there
I say the same now, again, despite the exit of some powerful writers. And still certainly more interesting.

It's not a probing poem, is it?

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

BTW, I suspect one the of the reasons of the noncommentables may be the ol multiple alt syndrome.

Make what you will of it.

Personally it's because it seems to be a waste of my time in most cases.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I've tried giving indepth critiques on submissions as to why this or that doesn't work and gotten nothing but abuse back, you should have read a few of the insulting emails I received until I blocked them entirely this end. When I first came here I was rhyming everything and some very kind people Tess/Eve/Ange/TZ etc pointed out the error of my ways and offered a helping hand. I just wonder why these days that the majority don't want the advice offered only to be told how wonderful their poetry is, they certainly don't listen and publish the same thing ad nauseum so that I think "Oh sod them" and go and find some other way to pass the time.

 

[BooMerengue]

I have poems screaming in me but they're stuck in my throat. They are probably boring, but not to me. They're just there. A pile of words that I play with. But it seems it's always the same poem. Makes sense coming from the same mouth. But I can't get them OUT!! Ack!

Maybe someone will make a challenge?

 

[twelveoone]

I've tried giving indepth critiques on submissions as to why this or that doesn't work and gotten nothing but abuse back, you should have read a few of the insulting emails I received until I blocked them entirely this end. When I first came here I was rhyming everything and some very kind people Tess/Eve/Ange/TZ etc pointed out the error of my ways and offered a helping hand. I just wonder why these days that the majority don't want the advice offered only to be told how wonderful their poetry is, they certainly don't listen and publish the same thing ad nauseum so that I think "Oh sod them" and go and find some other way to pass the time.

In most cases indepth overloads. Abuse goes with the territory. (never made the top list, lost me H's, etc.) I've read a few myself. But, in some cases people do want advice, some people have surprised the hell out me (I expect the worst), what blows me away is some of what I assume are real newcomers have become commentors, some even listed me a faves(?)

But most of the serial dumpers are nothing but fucking parasites. In some cases, game playing twits.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

In most cases indepth overloads. Abuse goes with the territory. (never made the top list, lost me H's, etc.) I've read a few myself. But, in some cases people do want advice, some people have surprised the hell out me (I expect the worst), what blows me away is some of what I assume are real newcomers have become commentors, some even listed me a faves(?)

But most of the serial dumpers are nothing but fucking parasites. In some cases, game playing twits.

Even the odd negative remark has gleaned me dreadful emails in the past, if they don't want genuine comments why the hell do they leave the comments on? Mind you I suppose now that they can't get at me I could go down the list commenting 'this sucks'! but they know enough to delete such comments, just don't know how to write poetry

 

[bogusagain]

It's not a probing poem, is it?

My probing poem was probing nowhere. I think I have exhausted that vein.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

My probing poem was probing nowhere. I think I have exhausted that vein.

Moannnnnnnn !!

 

[twelveoone]

I've heard that Pablo Neruda sells the most poetry books and has for quite a while, more than Ginsberg, even, though probably not as much as anthologies. I happen to like Neruda a lot, but I think Ginsberg is a better poet and took more chances, put himself out there more honestly in his poetry. Overall I think the general populace, if they have interest in poetry to begin with, like to stay with the safer stuff: the pretty love poems, the bathetic, the purple prose.

I'm still lurking most days as I'm trying not to type much (until I make a more ergonomic office arrangement, anyway). I hope to resolve that before too much longer. I want to write--and if I write I know I'll leave comments again, too.

I've heard Rod McKuen at one time outsold Frost and Eliot,

Of course I don't remember Johnny Cash ever singing Frost or Eliot

Now if Cheech and Chong had done a Ginsberg album, things might have been different.

But seriously this is an interesting comparison. Neruda vs Ginsberg. I don't think Neruda ever had the power of Kaddish or the impact of Howl, but in his later years Ginsberg wrote some really dreadful stuff. Some of Neruda's translations come off as somewhat dreadful. The Spanish looks better, tighter. I'm not sure how Ginsberg's Howl would come of in Spanish.

I'll vote Ginsberg.

 

[lorencino]

Joy

It's all so mindbogglingly infinite. You can never pile up all the shit and presume to be in command of your poetry for there are always a million new angles coming at you from all sides here in this amazing poetry forum. What makes literotica better than other poetry forums is the absence of the artificial divide between the sacred and the profane. You can write a stunningly beautiful poem with the word “fuck” in it and no-one will be uncomfortable. Literotica allows one to go anywhere.

 

[twelveoone]

It's all so mindbogglingly infinite. You can never pile up all the shit and presume to be in command of your poetry for there are always a million new angles coming at you from all sides here in this amazing poetry forum. What makes literotica better than other poetry forums is the absence of the artificial divide between the sacred and the profane. You can write a stunningly beautiful poem with the word “fuck” in it and no-one will be uncomfortable. Literotica allows one to go anywhere.

plus it rhymes with Chuck
which is short for Bukowski

so tear down the walls between the hackneyed and the insane.

However, Literotica has its own special set of problems, doesn't it?

Of which I am proud to be one of. But not one of the biggiest. (sic)

BTW lorencino, I commend you on the comment leaving, now....

if only the dumpsterellas, would get off there collective dufie, and of the geniusasses would quit showing up with a circle of jerkish friends acting like support hose for varicose poems. And then the anon....

I would be glad to quit being a problem by pointing it out. Ratio elsewhere is three to one, your own alts don't count.

Boring you? Take a look at the number of posts - start date of 2004 - and maybe a 1/3 of the posts where in support of other poets.

 

[lorencino]

plus it rhymes with Chuck
which is short for Bukowski

so tear down the walls between the hackneyed and the insane.

However, Literotica has its own special set of problems, doesn't it?

Of which I am proud to be one of. But not one of the biggiest. (sic)

BTW lorencino, I commend you on the comment leaving, now....

if only the dumpsterellas, would get off there collective dufie, and of the geniusasses would quit showing up with a circle of jerkish friends acting like support hose for varicose poems. And then the anon....

I would be glad to quit being a problem by pointing it out. Ratio elsewhere is three to one, your own alts don't count.

Boring you? Take a look at the number of posts - start date of 2004 - and maybe a 1/3 of the posts where in support of other poets.

Thoughts on twelveoone as a problem

No one can accuse twelveoone of being boring without exposing themselves as boneheads. I think it is far better to go on about the counter-productive selfishness of expecting others to appreciate one's poetry while never stopping to appreciate the poetry of others. What twelveoone demands is a community of minds that engage with each other for the ultimate excellence of everyone's intellectual, artistic and cultural growth. This is far richer than raising oneself on a pedestal and tossing brilliant poems to the adoring masses bowing below. That is not intercourse and intercourse is key to the success of this community.

So while I agree completely with the thrust of twelveoone’s campaign, I sometimes have to smile when he reprimands someone too hastily and then bravely acknowledge his mistake. That is what makes his apparent rants so acceptable: twelveoone is not arrogant. He demonstrate a healthy scepticism and demands considerate treatment of others in the community.

twelveoone you have a challenging intellect but are clearly not bereft of compassion nor are you blinded by your own importance.

I don't mind people using anon if they feel reluctant to expose their identity. However, I have no respect for bullies who hid behind anon when they sneer at the efforts of others. The sneering, arrogant, swaggering commentary that is anonymous is exactly what Wilhelm Reich addressed in his Listen Little Man. Reich's book arises in part out of his concern for the same sort of occurance as the gangs of bullies that stalk the corridors of literotica. Fascism develops when these people are not challenged

In Conclusion

twelveoone, your 3 to 1 campaign is a worthy endeavour that deserves the vocal and active support of more of us.

[Aside] My commentary is restricted to poems that engage my intellect, emotions and body strongly. My fault is that I ignore poems which don't move me and that would be a big problem if it were not for people like chipbutty who so frequently provides wonderfully practical advice to new poets.

 

[lorencino]

What does alt refer to?

**************************

plus it rhymes with Chuck
which is short for Bukowski

The high minded, drapped in pallid black,
will denounce the glory occasioned by a fuck
as equivalent to grubbing in the muck
believing the gliding slime would attack
the vulnerable orgasmic sack
:caning:

[Anyone wasting time providing feedback on the above poem wil be pointedly ignored]

 

[UnderYourSpell]

twelveoone is sometimes a pain in the Aspidistra (but if being a pain means getting things done all hail to him), is often obscure (but that may be he has a higher education than me, something he should take into consideration), downright hilarious at times, often misunderstood and (he will hate this!) has mellowed with age

 

[Desejo]

As a newcomer - some thoughts and observations

First -I want to point out that it is not a Given that every newcomer even reads this forum. I don't recall receiving a please go to the discussion boards for guidance and our recommended standard operating procedures email.

If there really are preferred behaviors that writers can expected to be judged upon, it may be a good idea to see if its possible to agree on those (though I have no idea who would make that call) and send out an email referring each new writer in the poetry section to those rules.

Now. To the numbered one. 1201.

First, let me say that some of his posts - especially the ones found in this forum - which, as I have said, not everyone sees - are excellent. And very helpful. As are some of his feedback and comments.

That said: Frankly, I am absolutely astonished that no one has yet called him a prick

It's fine to encourage new poets to critique and post comments. Its fine to encourage people to vote and read widely. It's extremely helpful to point out poor use of language or cliches and suggest how it could be better.

But.
I will never agree that it's ok to imply that someone is having their friends vote anon to increase scores on a particular poem, that the poet is in fact using aliases to vote and comment on his own poetry, or that votes should be public and every single vote must be accompanied with a comment. And frankly, half the time the new writers probably have absolutely no idea what the hell 1201 is talking about when he refers to alts, anons, dubious H ratings etc. I know I didn't. And did it piss me off? Damn straight.

Conversely - if someone were peppering my pieces with malicious, unexplained votes, would that piss me off too? Damn straight.

If there is a way to fix that, let's do so. If not - then we need to live with it, and, as has been said above do our part.

I think it comes down to what kind of atmosphere this section wants to have. Is it boot camp? Fine, but for the love of all things decent - warn people of that. Is it come on in and let's talk? Also fine. I suspect that different people require different kinds of encouragement. Just a bit more sensitivity to that would go a long way.

My 2 cents. Take it or leave it. I ain't forcing anyone to do anything.
And to 1201: Thank you. And let me be the first to say it: your'e a prick (smile)

 

[lorencino]

twelveoone is sometimes a pain in the Aspidistra (but if being a pain means getting things done all hail to him), is often obscure (but that may be he has a higher education than me, something he should take into consideration), downright hilarious at times, often misunderstood and (he will hate this!) has mellowed with age

Under your spell, I might enjoy a little pain in my Aspidistra . . .

 

[lorencino]

A safe anarchy prevails

First -I want to point out that it is not a Given that every newcomer even reads this forum. I don't recall receiving a please go to the discussion boards for guidance and our recommended standard operating procedures email.

If there really are preferred behaviors that writers can expected to be judged upon, it may be a good idea to see if its possible to agree on those (though I have no idea who would make that call) and send out an email referring each new writer in the poetry section to those rules.

Now. To the numbered one. 1201.

First, let me say that some of his posts - especially the ones found in this forum - which, as I have said, not everyone sees - are excellent. And very helpful. As are some of his feedback and comments.

That said: Frankly, I am absolutely astonished that no one has yet called him a prick

It's fine to encourage new poets to critique and post comments. Its fine to encourage people to vote and read widely. It's extremely helpful to point out poor use of language or cliches and suggest how it could be better.

But.
I will never agree that it's ok to imply that someone is having their friends vote anon to increase scores on a particular poem, that the poet is in fact using aliases to vote and comment on his own poetry, or that votes should be public and every single vote must be accompanied with a comment. And frankly, half the time the new writers probably have absolutely no idea what the hell 1201 is talking about when he refers to alts, anons, dubious H ratings etc. I know I didn't. And did it piss me off? Damn straight.

Conversely - if someone were peppering my pieces with malicious, unexplained votes, would that piss me off too? Damn straight.

If there is a way to fix that, let's do so. If not - then we need to live with it, and, as has been said above do our part.

I think it comes down to what kind of atmosphere this section wants to have. Is it boot camp? Fine, but for the love of all things decent - warn people of that. Is it come on in and let's talk? Also fine. I suspect that different people require different kinds of encouragement. Just a bit more sensitivity to that would go a long way.

My 2 cents. Take it or leave it. I ain't forcing anyone to do anything.
And to 1201: Thank you. And let me be the first to say it: your'e a prick (smile)

To cut a long story short (not usually my forté):

This poetry forum is, by and large, a sort of harmonious anarchy where people usually engage respectfully and helpfully. There is always a background noise from the wonderful people who are wont to remind us of the purposes and intentions of this forum. There are occasional outbreaks of dissent and things can get pretty intense but there always seems to be a moderating voice that comes along and calms things down, while, at the same time that the controversy is raging, others are carrying on their conversations in this busy lounge seemingly oblivious to the racing hormones flying about the place, or perhaps they are innoculated against the dogfights by their own raging hormones.

Continuing in my attempts at brevity, let me add that the moderators here are not Stalinists and maintain a benign eye on the goings on, refraining from interference, unless it is blatantly fucking necessary. Then when they do interfere it is with such a light touch, you hardly notice it.

Net result is that this is truly a place for mature adults to stretch their minds.

So remember, though we are all by nature destined to be pricks from time to time, we are also pulsing with the sensuous vitality of compassion and understanding when we inevitably peak from time to time.

 

[lorencino]

Addendum to the above

as the case may be!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

First -I want to point out that it is not a Given that every newcomer even reads this forum. I don't recall receiving a please go to the discussion boards for guidance and our recommended standard operating procedures email.

If there really are preferred behaviors that writers can expected to be judged upon, it may be a good idea to see if its possible to agree on those (though I have no idea who would make that call) and send out an email referring each new writer in the poetry section to those rules.

Now. To the numbered one. 1201.

First, let me say that some of his posts - especially the ones found in this forum - which, as I have said, not everyone sees - are excellent. And very helpful. As are some of his feedback and comments.

That said: Frankly, I am absolutely astonished that no one has yet called him a prick

It's fine to encourage new poets to critique and post comments. Its fine to encourage people to vote and read widely. It's extremely helpful to point out poor use of language or cliches and suggest how it could be better.

But.
I will never agree that it's ok to imply that someone is having their friends vote anon to increase scores on a particular poem, that the poet is in fact using aliases to vote and comment on his own poetry, or that votes should be public and every single vote must be accompanied with a comment. And frankly, half the time the new writers probably have absolutely no idea what the hell 1201 is talking about when he refers to alts, anons, dubious H ratings etc. I know I didn't. And did it piss me off? Damn straight.

Conversely - if someone were peppering my pieces with malicious, unexplained votes, would that piss me off too? Damn straight.

If there is a way to fix that, let's do so. If not - then we need to live with it, and, as has been said above do our part.

I think it comes down to what kind of atmosphere this section wants to have. Is it boot camp? Fine, but for the love of all things decent - warn people of that. Is it come on in and let's talk? Also fine. I suspect that different people require different kinds of encouragement. Just a bit more sensitivity to that would go a long way.

My 2 cents. Take it or leave it. I ain't forcing anyone to do anything.
And to 1201: Thank you. And let me be the first to say it: your'e a prick (smile)

From the number of posts you've made since joining I would say you've found your way here a lot damn quicker than I did and nobody sent me an invitation either, so have you been lurking up till now?
If some submitters aren't bringing their friends with them or voting anon in their Alts, then it's a worrying factor that so many people unattached to them appreciate such shit. Boot camp? here? never! I found warm considerate helpful poets that gave of their own experience as would you if you'd give us half a chance, but how can you give encouragement to poets (?) that take not the blindest bit of notice and send out emails in reply of such profanity they have to be seen to be believed. How to make friends and influence people ...... not

Under your spell, I might enjoy a little pain in my Aspidistra . . .

You always were a kinky boy