Bigotry IN the Community

[SweetErika]

Yeah, I know there are bigots everywhere, but the amount of hatred that spewed forth at me from another person who claimed to be in the lifestyle the other day still shocked me because I've heard so much acceptance and support of differences over and over from just about everyone.

I'm not looking for advice, but I would like to hear your experiences with bigotry from others who do WIITWD and perhaps how you felt, reacted, etc., because I never fail to learn something valuable from these discussions.

Any related discussion is welcome as well, of course.

 

[neonflux]

Hi Erika,

Don't know what post you are responding to - sounds awful though, and inexcusable... (Inquiring minds, but only if you'd be willing to share.) Re: posting, first have a question. What does WIITWD mean? I am such a neophyte, sometimes. Didn't know half of the terms that EG defined in another thread, LOL.

Neon

Yeah, I know there are bigots everywhere, but the amount of hatred that spewed forth at me from another person who claimed to be in the lifestyle the other day still shocked me because I've heard so much acceptance and support of differences over and over from just about everyone.

I'm not looking for advice, but I would like to hear your experiences with bigotry from others who do WIITWD and perhaps how you felt, reacted, etc., because I never fail to learn something valuable from these discussions.

Any related discussion is welcome as well, of course.

 

[CutieMouse]

What It Is That We Do = WIITWD

 

[SweetErika]

Hi Erika,

Don't know what post you are responding to - sounds awful though, and inexcusable... (Inquiring minds, but only if you'd be willing to share.) Re: posting, first have a question. What does WIITWD mean? I am such a neophyte, sometimes. Didn't know half of the terms that EG defined in another thread, LOL.

Neon

The hatred wasn't in a post here, thankfully, but in a communication on another BDSM site that was initated by another person.

Apparently this woman has been interested in BDSM for a long time and is currently owned by an all-knowing, perfect master who orchestrates shit like this to show his subs how right he is. If I were to relay some of our conversation, it would probably look something like [I'm not sure where the line is, but hopefully everyone's okay with assuming this is a realistic example in the interest of discussion; if not, I'm happy to edit to conform to the standards if you'll let me know where I'm going wrong.]:

Her: Anyway, even though I have been interested in bdsm for a long time, I found during my research for my thesis that most of it was very deviant and stupid, and most of the people I met were fakes, players, rapists, pedophiles, and I even turned in a few people who were doing so dangerous stuff with the people they were with, because it was just down right ignorant of them to be doing in it the first place without proper training or guidance.

After I met my very kind and knowledgable Master, my education on the area of the lifestyle and bdsm really took off. I learned that ‘mainstream’ bdsm and the lifestyle that you find on the Internet and in the social clubs are just people playing ignorant sexual games. He took me down to the club just so I could see for myself the silly games that we play and how wrongly the girls are abused and mistreated under the disguise that they are submissives and slaves, when they have no idea what that term really means at all. So no, I’m pleased to say I am not involved with that group down there. Sexuality and sex are side notes to real bdsm and the lifestyle does not revolve around sex or sexuality, but around something much more deeper and rich besides merely the physical aspects that everyone seems to focus on.

So my experience in the community has been nothing much but people focused too much on sex and kinky games and how fast someone can get your panties off and into bed. It is all real nonsense actually, and if they ever had a peak, just a peak at the real thing, they would see how truly dumb their silly games are, but my Master has told me that is the way of things….And I have seen the same with my own eyes…I am so glad that I found my mate and Master and that he and the other Master’s of his path are not like that.

To which I replied in a very neutral way that I have learned there is no right or wrong way to practice BDSM as long as no one's being harmed, whatever makes people happy is great for them, and the wonderful thing about this community is the way it embraces diversity and doesn't put people down for doing what they love in healthy ways.

I also answered some seemingly innocent questions in her initial communication about my own situation.

Here's where the hatred really starts:

Her: I thought that would be the response I would get from you. My Master informed me that would be the most likely response from someone like you, but I was encouraged to express myself to you completely even though I knew you would come back with trash like...Be tolerant...Your lifestyle is not the best just right for you...What PC garbage.

The path I follow and that of my Master is the one and true path and if you are going to call yourself a submissive then I have the right to judge you for your behavior. I saw with my own eyes what they do down at the club and so did my sister slave. You can't deny what you see with your own eyes.

You are not a submissive your are not even a Mistress...You are just a silly girl playing silly games and your husband is weak if he allows you to cheat on him right in front of his eyes....I pity you for you will never know the truth behind what it really means to live this lifestyle. You and your kind are what give us a bad name and make the vanilla world believe we are so deviant and corrupt and without morals.

You disgust me. Don't ever write to me again, for your letters will go unread and I have your picture...If I ever see you on the street you better watch your back...for you disguest me and your kind are nothing but garbage playing stupid sex games when that is NOT what the lifestyle is about.

Now, would those words hurt me personally or truly scare me? No, because I can write her off as a lunatic who's likely involved with a certain non-reality-based brand of BDSM. However, on a higher level it always hurts me to hear this kind of hatred, and it was certainly from an unexpected source this time. I'm surprised and saddened that multiple people feel so strongly about this that they'd spend their time baiting others so they can spew this vile crap, and doubly so that it'd come to making threats just because they don't like what people like me (and apparently you and just about everyone else) are into. I know this is an isolated example, but I didn't expect to encounter anything like this while minding my own business, and I'm disappointed that I did.

 

[CutieMouse]

Hmm... having known people who are very umm... "old school", I will say yes, I believe there are a lot of people in the BDSM "scene" who are in it for sexual thrills, and not a lot more. I'll also say that to *me* there is a lot more to BDSM than sex, so I somewhat sort of pretty much lump people who are in it for kinky sex into one catagory, and people who are in it for more than kinky sex, into another.

Having said that- I could give a damn if people are in it for kinky sex and nothing more... just don't bother attempting to convince me to participate.

Having an opinion on the subject that is less than popular isn't automatically biggoted or bad, but it isn't automatically good, either. This person communicated her opinion in an ugly, holier-than-thou manner- which I don't feel helps her communicate her "concerns" (for lack of a better word).I reserve such rightous indignation for things like women in abusive relationships, or children going hungry, or kittens being tortured- not the choices adults make with regards to their kinks.

From the stories I've heard, the BDSM community has changed drastically in the last 25 years, and I'm not sure it has changed for the better, but that doesn't excuse bad manners. I would call her behaviour unbalanced and rude, moreso than biggoted.

 

[caela]

Wow..I'm sorry you came across such a bitch Erika. I guess it just goes to prove once again that there are bigots and morons in any group. ~sigh~

 

[A Desert Rose]

The hatred wasn't in a post here, thankfully, but in a communication on another BDSM site that was initated by another person.

Apparently this woman has been interested in BDSM for a long time and is currently owned by an all-knowing, perfect master who orchestrates shit like this to show his subs how right he is. If I were to relay some of our conversation, it would probably look something like [I'm not sure where the line is, but hopefully everyone's okay with assuming this is a realistic example in the interest of discussion; if not, I'm happy to edit to conform to the standards if you'll let me know where I'm going wrong.]:

Her: Anyway, even though I have been interested in bdsm for a long time, I found during my research for my thesis that most of it was very deviant and stupid, and most of the people I met were fakes, players, rapists, pedophiles, and I even turned in a few people who were doing so dangerous stuff with the people they were with, because it was just down right ignorant of them to be doing in it the first place without proper training or guidance.

After I met my very kind and knowledgable Master, my education on the area of the lifestyle and bdsm really took off. I learned that ‘mainstream’ bdsm and the lifestyle that you find on the Internet and in the social clubs are just people playing ignorant sexual games. He took me down to the club just so I could see for myself the silly games that we play and how wrongly the girls are abused and mistreated under the disguise that they are submissives and slaves, when they have no idea what that term really means at all. So no, I’m pleased to say I am not involved with that group down there. Sexuality and sex are side notes to real bdsm and the lifestyle does not revolve around sex or sexuality, but around something much more deeper and rich besides merely the physical aspects that everyone seems to focus on.

So my experience in the community has been nothing much but people focused too much on sex and kinky games and how fast someone can get your panties off and into bed. It is all real nonsense actually, and if they ever had a peak, just a peak at the real thing, they would see how truly dumb their silly games are, but my Master has told me that is the way of things….And I have seen the same with my own eyes…I am so glad that I found my mate and Master and that he and the other Master’s of his path are not like that.

To which I replied in a very neutral way that I have learned there is no right or wrong way to practice BDSM as long as no one's being harmed, whatever makes people happy is great for them, and the wonderful thing about this community is the way it embraces diversity and doesn't put people down for doing what they love in healthy ways.

I also answered some seemingly innocent questions in her initial communication about my own situation.

Here's where the hatred really starts:

Her: I thought that would be the response I would get from you. My Master informed me that would be the most likely response from someone like you, but I was encouraged to express myself to you completely even though I knew you would come back with trash like...Be tolerant...Your lifestyle is not the best just right for you...What PC garbage.

The path I follow and that of my Master is the one and true path and if you are going to call yourself a submissive then I have the right to judge you for your behavior. I saw with my own eyes what they do down at the club and so did my sister slave. You can't deny what you see with your own eyes.

You are not a submissive your are not even a Mistress...You are just a silly girl playing silly games and your husband is weak if he allows you to cheat on him right in front of his eyes....I pity you for you will never know the truth behind what it really means to live this lifestyle. You and your kind are what give us a bad name and make the vanilla world believe we are so deviant and corrupt and without morals.

You disgust me. Don't ever write to me again, for your letters will go unread and I have your picture...If I ever see you on the street you better watch your back...for you disguest me and your kind are nothing but garbage playing stupid sex games when that is NOT what the lifestyle is about.

Now, would those words hurt me personally or truly scare me? No, because I can write her off as a lunatic who's likely involved with a certain non-reality-based brand of BDSM. However, on a higher level it always hurts me to hear this kind of hatred, and it was certainly from an unexpected source this time. I'm surprised and saddened that multiple people feel so strongly about this that they'd spend their time baiting others so they can spew this vile crap, and doubly so that it'd come to making threats just because they don't like what people like me (and apparently you and just about everyone else) are into. I know this is an isolated example, but I didn't expect to encounter anything like this while minding my own business, and I'm disappointed that I did.

LMAO... what tripe. And yes, you're right... she's a lunatic.

 

[Netzach]

Threatening internets people.

That's reality-based behavior.

Takes all kinds. There are a lot of broken and messed up people pulled towards this stuff as towards anything else. Pay it no mind. You are not encountering bigotry, you are encountering:

insecurity
lack of social skills
lack of ability to deal with others
lack of self esteem
inability to handle reality
delusions and exaggerations

the people I've met who walk the M/s walk are fairly down to earth and don't have time to trash other people.

 

[SweetErika]

Hmm... having known people who are very umm... "old school", I will say yes, I believe there are a lot of people in the BDSM "scene" who are in it for sexual thrills, and not a lot more. I'll also say that to *me* there is a lot more to BDSM than sex, so I somewhat sort of pretty much lump people who are in it for kinky sex into one catagory, and people who are in it for more than kinky sex, into another.

Having said that- I could give a damn if people are in it for kinky sex and nothing more... just don't bother attempting to convince me to participate.

Having an opinion on the subject that is less than popular isn't automatically biggoted or bad, but it isn't automatically good, either. This person communicated her opinion in an ugly, holier-than-thou manner- which I don't feel helps her communicate her "concerns" (for lack of a better word).I reserve such rightous indignation for things like women in abusive relationships, or children going hungry, or kittens being tortured- not the choices adults make with regards to their kinks.

Agreed. I'm not in it for the sex either, but I don't have a problem with those who are. I find certain practices/activities such as scat play disgusting personally, though the people who are into them do not disgust me because that's their kink, and as long as it's consensual, I hope they get the most out of it. Similarly, it's fine with me if/when people express that they don't like my lifestyle or kinks, but I think there are ways to do so without making it hateful and degrading.

From the stories I've heard, the BDSM community has changed drastically in the last 25 years, and I'm not sure it has changed for the better, but that doesn't excuse bad manners. I would call her behaviour unbalanced and rude, moreso than biggoted.

I suppose I was going for the 'intolerant of any opinions differing from his/her own' part of bigot due to the 'my way is the only right way and yours is wrong and I'm threatening you because of it' message, but you have a good point.

 

[Betticus]

That whole "one true path" thing sounds like cult indoctrination stuff. I'll make some up off the cuff for you to peruse as an example:

Check it out, I have this car. It's a stripped out 1970 beetle, baja style with a racing engine. This is the one true car in the world, all other cars are just bullshitting you and abusing your ass because they don't even know that they are not cars. Anyone that tells you they have a car that is not a 1970 beetle baja is just trying to suck you into their ignorance. If you fall for that shit from some chevy or ford or european sedan you are a complete dumbass and deserve any kind of judgement that I throw against you because you are less than human. Only if you give yourself to me and my car will you ever know what being in a real car is like. If not, you can go to hell because I deserve better than you can give me.

Don't ever message me again or bad shit will happen unless you are ready to beg my forgiveness and ask me to guide you into the light that is the 1970 beetle. And you will have to really convince me after this show of stupidity. I'm not sure that I would take you even after that.

Fuck you!

 

[ammre]

I kept trying to rea the red text but all i saw is
I'm an elitist blah blah blah blah, i'm better then you blah blah blah, i don't want to potentially think i'm normal or common, blah blah, I want something to associate myself with that's "better" then the common outsider conception of BDSM blah blah, if i act smarter and elitist i'll be better then the common dungeon folks blah blah

I mean we all know the bad rap the BDSM community has. So in order to feel more secure in what they are doing they try to make it sound like they are better, they are above that kind of bdsm that harbors "perverts" and "creeps" when really they are still part of it. It jsut makes them feel better to say they are elite.

Let her live her little fantasy. Maybe she'll wake up someday and realize her "true path" was just manipulation by her oh so amazing master.

I get vhement when people start using "true" to describe their way. Her only true path is up her ass.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Hi Erika,

What does WIITWD mean? I am such a neophyte, sometimes. Didn't know half of the terms that EG defined in another thread, LOL.

*looks around in a panic....*

What definitions? What thread?

 

[neonflux]

your very funny descriptions of things like rofl... etc. don't remember what thread. ohhh, it's kind of fun getting your big scary EG self into a panic, rofl

*looks around in a panic....*

What definitions? What thread?

 

[O'Mac]

Is there a link to the forum where this post was made?

Because honestly, I feel like taking someone down a peg or two.


To be fair, I did agree with some points that she made earlier on. Of course she's WAY off base with her further comments, and I am no fan of her elitist attitude.

Stupid bitch, writing ignorant words.

 

[Zinfandel]

LOL, I feel like I have no place really commenting in this thread, but...

What a self-absorbed lunatic! I'm sorry someone treated you and your preferences so disrespectfully, Erika. Probably the only thing that would ever make me write a person off completely is exactly the attitude that she displayed - the "my way is right and anyone who doesn't do it my way is wrong" kind of attitude. Really, how hard is it to believe that there could be multiple "right" ways? I'm truly astounded by the gall of people who believe that everyone who doesn't do things their way is wrong, and worse are the ones who feel that others need to be "educated" as to what is "right"... I feel like I run into this attitude a lot concerning religious beliefs; it's a different subject, but a similar thought process as far as I'm concerned. Betticus's comment re: cults was very much what I thought of when I read the comments she posted to you.

I mean we all know the bad rap the BDSM community has.

Does it have a bad rap? I'm truly asking out of curiousity. I'm not a part of the BDSM community, but I have interest in some aspects of it and have been doing a lot of reading lately (including here, and I'm thankful for those who have welcomed me in the few threads I have posted in, even given all of my ignorance ). I guess I wasn't aware that it has a bad rap, as I've never thought of BDSM in any negative way, even prior to my recent interest in it.


Edited to add something unrelated to the topic of this thread (I hope you don't mind Erika):

Neon, in the short time that I've been reading in this forum, I have really enjoyed seeing your posts. You bring what seems to me to be a light-heartedness to many threads, an energetic sweetness of sorts that seems to be a part of your character. I am an overly-serious person too much of the time, and I just wanted to let you know how much I've enjoyed your posts in this forum.

I've noticed a lot of people being playful with one another here, and it's nice to see

 

[serijules]

I've met a few people like that over the years, and while they may claim to be so wonderfully content, oddly enough (sarcasm) no one really likes them, wants to be around them, or desires to have anything to do with them. How exactly is that a "lifestyle"? Unless living in your own lonely delusional world qualifies as a whole lifestyle these days.

Tolerance isn't a characteristic of someone involved in a reality based BDSM lifestyle, it is just plain old common courtesy. You don't have to agree with someone's choices or actions in order to treat them like a human being. The whole "sister slave" thing and the WIITWD and PYL stuff are things that makes me cringe and probably think a few not so tolerant thoughts, but I'll be damned if I'm going to walk around telling everyone that talks like that what an idiot they are.

Just remember, you think she is as insane and non-reality-based as she seems to think you are.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not looking for advice, but I would like to hear your experiences with bigotry from others who do WIITWD and perhaps how you felt, reacted, etc., because I never fail to learn something valuable from these discussions.

This post is not a response to the comments you quoted in red. Rather, I am responding to your request for examples from other people's experiences.

I came of age before anyone had personal computers, much less Internet access. In my own way, I've been engaging in power play and pain play since before I even knew of the existence of a "BDSM community", or had heard of the terminology & customs commonly referred to now as D/s or BDSM.

I have watched the explosion of interest in pain play and power play that followed in the wake of the Internet, and would say that overall I consider this to be a very positive development for our society. I am not the kind of guy who yearns for outlaw status. Broader acceptance of lifestyle practices is a positive thing from my point of view.

But one thing that I have seen happening is the attempt by many to replace mainstream cultural norms and expectations with a new set of rules and hierarchy of status. And while cultural identification can often be positive, it is also true that a set of expectations can become quite Orwellian.

"Bigotry" is probably too strong a word for what I have seen in most instances, but "snobbishness" and "intolerance" clearly do apply in many cases.

Hierarchies of respectability or status, with Master over Dom over Top on one side of the coin, and slave over submissive over bottom on the other.... and *all* of them above "'nillas"..... is very, very evident in many circles.

There are also many groups, clubs, etc., that place a high premium on protocol, dress, language, and customs, and clearly look down on those who do not adhere to the "right" rules.

Is this true in all corners of the BDSM community? Of course not. How do I react to the Orwellian segment of the BDSM world? In part, by standing up for people like bottoms whenever it seems appropriate to do so. But mostly, by just walking away and hanging out with my own group of friends.

 

[O'Mac]

Is this true in all corners of the BDSM community? Of course not. How do I react to the Orwellian segment of the BDSM world? In part, by standing up for people like bottoms whenever it seems appropriate to do so. But mostly, by just walking away and hanging out with my own group of friends.

Good advice for anyone.

 

[Arianna22]

Hi,

I read what that lady said and it horrified me.

It has taken me years to admit that I am submissive... and I try and be open minded to what other people like to do too.

I may not like what they do, nor want to take part in it, but how can it be wrong? If two (or more) people are consenting and having fun how can that be wrong? I dont understand why there is that much hate and anger coming from her. It may not be what she sees as 'real' but then why does she hate it so passionately? Its not hurting her?

*sigh* I get confused by people who hate with no seeming reason or sense. You think that people would get along a lot better by listening and trying to accept each others beliefs and wishes, rather than trying to hurt them.. or maybe I'm just niaeve.

 

[SweetErika]

Thank you for the great comments, everyone. Reading her words, I envisioned the response she'd get posting similar here and realized again how grateful I am to have made Lit my home board. I know there are lunatics and very hateful people here too, but they seem to steer clear of the corners of Lit I enjoy most, including this one (and with good reason - both are welcoming, helpful, but very tough groups when pressed!).

Is there a link to the forum where this post was made?

Because honestly, I feel like taking someone down a peg or two.

Sorry to dash your hopes, O, but there's no link. I haven't checked in a while, but I'm expecting her to be excluded from participating in any aspect of that site in the near future due to its rules against making threats, etc. Hoping she'll be knocked down a few pegs and won't be able to do it to anyone else there is all we can do now.

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, sounds like anoother one who fels she is highly intelligent and intellectual, but has fallen prey to a brainwasher in the flicker of an eyelid....and the sad thing is, he is probably patting himself on the back for being able to brainwash someone 'so intelligent' in so short a time, have her sprout his crap on the net for more victims to fall into, and get her to accept a sister slave as well!

Catalina

 

[cati]

Erika....Ok so there's no link per se, but is there a web site addy we could go to?
I for one would love to go read the posts surrounding this subject...just out of curiousity.

 

[SweetErika]

Erika....Ok so there's no link per se, but is there a web site addy we could go to?
I for one would love to go read the posts surrounding this subject...just out of curiousity.

I don't believe I said it was posted in a forum. If it was, I would have happily given the link so you all could read from the source yourselves, instead of lots o' red text that illustrates what an anonymous person communicated to me on another site.

I'm treading carefully because I'm well aware of, and value, the rule here regarding posting private communications, but am not sure how that would apply in a situation like this (maybe Catalina can clarify if it's okay to do so when the other person is kept anonymous, not a Lit member as far as we know, we edit some of it [e.g. removing irrelevant and personal info, paraphrasing non-critical parts for brevity] and present it an example for discussion). While I don't believe I've violated the spirit of that rule, and have seen chat logs and such with identifiers changed posted without incident, this is new territory for me.

 

[cati]

No big deal really, as I said I was just a tad curious.
Personally, if someone hasn't already done so, I would definetly report her
to whomever is responsible for that site and for the reasons you have already mentioned.
We all know that there are a million ways to practice WIIWD. There is no one "true path" only our own.

 

[SweetErika]

No big deal really, as I said I was just a tad curious.
Personally, if someone hasn't already done so, I would definetly report her
to whomever is responsible for that site and for the reasons you have already mentioned.
We all know that there are a million ways to practice WIIWD. There is no one "true path" only our own.

I understand, and would be curious too.

And I did use the reporting system. No action has been taken yet that I know of, but perhaps the admins haven't gotten around to it yet. I don't truly feel threatened and figure my job's done.