Big 3

[jeninflorida]

is it time for the big 3 to go away?

 

[jomar]

Not unless there's someone poised to step in, and with banks not loaning money freely yet, they better have deep pockets.

But if the US wasn't on the brink of a depression, sure.

 

[rgraham666]

If we were prepared to clean up and soften the mess such an event would bring I'd say, 'yes'.

But we're not. Ad keeping them alive is likely to be cheaper than cleaning up the mess.

 

[Belegon]

the problem is, theses companies support an entire stateside industry.

It's not just GM. It's the companies that supply the parts; make the steel, plastic and glass; the trucker that delivers the new cars; the salesperson who sells them.

We can't just let them go away.

But, we need equity for anything we spend. Don't loan them money... let them raise capital the old fashioned way, by selling the govt. an ownership investment.

Then the govt. has a legal say in "forcing" them to change their ways...

 

[jeninflorida]

After doing some quick research, some are calling for 60% of management to be terminated and over 40% of the workers, and then most of the production to be completed by robots i.e. honda and the others. that would reduce the work force even more. GM stock is worth what 2-4 billion but they want over 20 billion in loans? not sure that the math adds up except for the emotional part, and fear of having another 3 million go unemployed.

is the union really ready to take some hits? sad part is that the union has destroyed so many companies and helped fuel the outsourcing of American jobs (arrow shirts, huffy bikes just to name a few). Harley almost went under but was saved with a tarrif

i find it funny that the big 3 ceo's were roasted, and granted they needed to be. each flying in on a private jet asking for money....what were they thinking flying in on private jets? It just goes to show how out of touch with reality the big 3 are….however, when the union guys came in DC were nice and treated the union guys with respect. Doesn’t the union hold fault to a large part of the problem? The cost structure for the union is out of whack and that part of the reason the big 3 is unable to compete on price

then DC called in 5 CEO's of the largest hedge funds, each of who earns more than a billion dollars and each paying very little in taxes, DC guys were like in awe, total man crush.

if the big 3 does fail, or if 1 fails will that push the economy into a 2nd great depression? or life under the carter years?

If we were prepared to clean up and soften the mess such an event would bring I'd say, 'yes'.

But we're not. Ad keeping them alive is likely to be cheaper than cleaning up the mess.

 

[Belegon]

if the big 3 does fail, or if 1 fails will that push the economy into a 2nd great depression? or life under the carter years?

The Carter years saw some bad things... but this is not the same at all. There was massive inflation caused, by most accounts ( I am NOT an economist) by factors including the oil crunch, the spending throughout the sixties and early seventies in Vietnam and the emergence of competitors for US products on the international level. Interest rates were very high, but credit was available at those rates. The current situation is quite different.

for example, the unemployment rate...with the Big 3 fuctioning... is at 6.7%. In Dec. 1978, it was at 6.0. It didn't reach 6.7 until April 1980 and was actually higher under Reagan (reaching 10.8) than it ever was under Carter.

If the Big 3 go down, 11% is scarily possible.

 

[jeninflorida]

over turkey day some of my family was talking about the carter years, and how a home mortgage was at 14-18%, ouch

we have or had the oil crunch, oil at $150 a few months ago. 2 wars going on right now. so with no money out there, isn't this part of the issue during the great depression? trying to remember history, during the great depression the goverment was the one who kept money tight....but right now money is tight due to banks? right?

The Carter years saw some bad things... but this is not the same at all. There was massive inflation caused, by most accounts ( I am NOT an economist) by factors including the oil crunch, the spending throughout the sixties and early seventies in Vietnam and the emergence of competitors for US products on the international level. Interest rates were very high, but credit was available at those rates. The current situation is quite different.

for example, the unemployment rate...with the Big 3 fuctioning... is at 6.7%. In Dec. 1978, it was at 6.0. It didn't reach 6.7 until April 1980 and was actually higher under Reagan (reaching 10.8) than it ever was under Carter.

If the Big 3 go down, 11% is scarily possible.

 

[jeninflorida]

what type of goverment support do other companies get?

is it time for the big 3 to go away?

 

[rgraham666]

That all time 'conservative' favorite; tax cuts.

Like the $800 million GM received early in The Bush administration. At that time, so I understand, GM was sitting on $6 billion in cash.

 

[jeninflorida]

what was the $800 million for?

the big question, can't live with the big 3 but can we afford to live with out them?

like others have stated, if they fold .... way to many jobs at risk.

That all time 'conservative' favorite; tax cuts.

Like the $800 million GM received early in The Bush administration. At that time, so I understand, GM was sitting on $6 billion in cash.

 

[rgraham666]

For nothing. It was just a retroactive tax cut and tax cuts are always good.

You can read about it here.

 

[jomar]

...Doesn’t the union hold fault to a large part of the problem? The cost structure for the union is out of whack and that part of the reason the big 3 is unable to compete on price...

Another reason is health care. Japan and other countries have socialized health insurance so car manufacturers don't have to pay for it. Providing health insurance adds to overhead for US businesses.

 

[R. Richard]

Let's assume that the big 3 go away.

We then get rid of the stupid management and the greedy unions. However, a few problems remain.

First, there are a very large number of unemployed who quickly bankrupt Michigan. Second, those who can't find a job in Michigan start to travel to other areas and are willing to work for any wage that will keep then alive. That depresses wages in other areas. Third, as has been pointed out, many of the suppliers who furnished parts to the big three go under. [Lest you think that they will just supply parts to the foreign manufacturers, DuPont, the giant chemical firm, is reporting losses in the unit that supplies paint to the big 3. Fourth, what happens to the people who now own big three cars when the cars need repair parts? The tooling for the repair parts exists only with the big three. Why won't someone step in and start manufacturing the needed repair parts? Why start a business that will go out of business in at most 10 years?

Let's assume that the government steps in. Of course the Democrats, who depend on the union vote to keep them in office will crack down on the excessive union contracts right now [under the watchful eye of the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.] Of course, the government will design and sell the kind of cars that can compete with the foreign builders. [Even now, individuals develop new automotive concepts under the watchful eyes of corporate executives who want to move up. Under government control, the individuals will have no way to innovate under the control of government people who have no idea how the automobile business works.]

The only way that seems to have any promise at all of working is to have the government loan the big 3 enough to keep them going. The government then needs to hire accounting firms to evaluate all big 3 spending, including union contracts and allow only that spending that makes sense.

 

[jeninflorida]

thanks, I'll read it. OMG TXU got $600 million! ouch, ouch

I'm always for tax cuts...the less money goverment has the better. I just don't trust the goverment running anything...granted I'm gonna be blasted for this. but it takes 5 goverment people to do the same amount of work as 1 non goverment worker. I think the leadship of goverment is on par with the leadership of Enron and we must question everything and both sides (right and left)

the idea that the goverment is getting into health care, is freaky...when left alone the goverment has destoryed social security and now people want to give the goverment more control?

For nothing. It was just a retroactive tax cut and tax cuts are always good.

You can read about it here.

 

[rgraham666]

Well, we have public health care here in Canada. And it works just fine. We spend 9% of our GDP on health care as opposed to 14% in the U.S. All our health stats are better than the U.S. as well.

I don't know where you get the idea that it takes five public servants to do the work of one private worker. I've encountered plenty of both and I've found idiocy and good service from both.

Shrugs. One of those things I can't understand. The belief that 'those people' are some how fundamentally different from 'the good guys'. They're all people.

 

[jeninflorida]

here is what I face about that issue, being down here I run into people from Canada and the UK, they come to the states for medical issues as its faster and less expensive here then in their own country. they also said that for cancer and other medical issues if you have the money you have find a way to get treatment in the states.

I think for pm and simple issues you are right but for cancer and other big issues a goverment program is not the best way to go. maybe I'm wrong but I'm just going by what pople tell me. also, i'm one that just can't belive the goverment can run a program well...

we shall see cuz between Obama and the clintons back in office (i think it was last night that SNL had a great spoof on the clintons being back in office).


here is one reason why i'm so anti government, a friend of mine had cancer and was about to die. She went on this experimental drug... and lived for another year. Then the fda came in and said that the drug was dangerous. They took her off the drug. She went on the Today show and others asking for help….but the fda turned a blind eye. In the end she passed….when one has terminal cancer what is a dangerous drug? It just pisses me off when dr’s do stuff like that and when they refuse to give cancer patients MJ or strong pain killers. Chemo is not fun and life sucks on it….thank god that we have a health insurance company that is good, and a Dr. that is very proactive. Now I just can’t wait to have all my hair back.

Well, we have public health care here in Canada. And it works just fine. We spend 9% of our GDP on health care as opposed to 14% in the U.S. All our health stats are better than the U.S. as well.

I don't know where you get the idea that it takes five public servants to do the work of one private worker. I've encountered plenty of both and I've found idiocy and good service from both.

Shrugs. One of those things I can't understand. The belief that 'those people' are some how fundamentally different from 'the good guys'. They're all people.

 

[jeninflorida]

is the 14% due to people who do not have health care?

my experience from goverment work, has come from working projects in the goverment. granted not every goverment worker is bad...just like every private sector person is bad.

but there is a ton of waste in goverment.

I can’t tell you when was the last time that I heard the word “secretary” outside of the movie (james spader) and the government. I’m working for a company with over 7,000 employees with no “secretaries” each worker is responsible for his or her fax, email, letters, travel arrangements, this and that.

Another thing about government, in Florida we have a state standard and test students towards the FCAT. Good or bad it’s here. However, each district has x number of administration employees, why? “Well, cuz each district is different.” Really? When a district is being held to one state standard why have so many little kingdoms?

I would hate to see more people lose his or her job but when you look at the big picture why are some 100,000 on the payroll that could be cuz? Property taxes could be cut by 60%!

Well, we have public health care here in Canada. And it works just fine. We spend 9% of our GDP on health care as opposed to 14% in the U.S. All our health stats are better than the U.S. as well.

I don't know where you get the idea that it takes five public servants to do the work of one private worker. I've encountered plenty of both and I've found idiocy and good service from both.

Shrugs. One of those things I can't understand. The belief that 'those people' are some how fundamentally different from 'the good guys'. They're all people.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

First, there are a very large number of unemployed who quickly bankrupt Michigan.

The entire state of MI will look like Flint. It's not pretty. Michael Moore exaggerates a lot, but he really didn't do Flint justice in Roger and Me. It's even more sad and pathethic than he made it look.

 

[michchick98]

i find it funny that the big 3 ceo's were roasted, and granted they needed to be. each flying in on a private jet asking for money....what were they thinking flying in on private jets? It just goes to show how out of touch with reality the big 3 are….

I couldn't even believe that when I heard it. Yeah, second time around they drove in hybrids, but I was watching a news story here before work one morning and one analyst said that one of the CEO's (don't remember which one) gets paid $1,000/hour.

So even driving was costing a lot more money that it should. A round trip ticket, first class, from Detroit to Washington, D.C. runs around $900. Way cheaper still.

They need to sell off all their corporate jets, their two summer homes and any unnecessary perks that cost the companies money. I doubt that'll happen though.

As far as if they should be 'gotten rid of'? No. Too many companies rely on the big three as suppliers. Hell, even the company I work for has a small percentage of business with them....not enough to effect us if they go under, but still.

Oh and it's been said that even if they do get these loans, chances are that 90,000 - 100,000 + people will still end up out of a job. On top of the 500,000 + (not just auto workers) who were laid off last month alone.

 

[jeninflorida]

when the company I worked for, sold the corp jets the CEO gave a great speach....

"Hello, I would like to introduce everyone to the new corp jet. its called south west."

about the hybrid, shows just how lost the leaders of the big 3 are....granted they wanted to try and catch some positive spin via taking a hybrid. on the flip side, when will these guys earn $1/year?

here is the big question, how do we get American's to purchase "american" products? what if people went to Target instead of Walmart?


This is an ignorant question on my part cuz I’m not sure what product of target are more “American” than Walmart…but I feel confident in saying that 99.999% of products in Walmart are made in china.

I couldn't even believe that when I heard it. Yeah, second time around they drove in hybrids, but I was watching a news story here before work one morning and one analyst said that one of the CEO's (don't remember which one) gets paid $1,000/hour.

So even driving was costing a lot more money that it should. A round trip ticket, first class, from Detroit to Washington, D.C. runs around $900. Way cheaper still.

They need to sell off all their corporate jets, their two summer homes and any unnecessary perks that cost the companies money. I doubt that'll happen though.

As far as if they should be 'gotten rid of'? No. Too many companies rely on the big three as suppliers. Hell, even the company I work for has a small percentage of business with them....not enough to effect us if they go under, but still.

Oh and it's been said that even if they do get these loans, chances are that 90,000 - 100,000 + people will still end up out of a job. On top of the 500,000 + (not just auto workers) who were laid off last month alone.

 

[jeninflorida]

I'm all for free marekts but I think that the CEO's of the big 3, and the union leaders become greedy and lost touch with reality....they both became the "Enron" of this year

I couldn't even believe that when I heard it. Yeah, second time around they drove in hybrids, but I was watching a news story here before work one morning and one analyst said that one of the CEO's (don't remember which one) gets paid $1,000/hour.

So even driving was costing a lot more money that it should. A round trip ticket, first class, from Detroit to Washington, D.C. runs around $900. Way cheaper still.

They need to sell off all their corporate jets, their two summer homes and any unnecessary perks that cost the companies money. I doubt that'll happen though.

As far as if they should be 'gotten rid of'? No. Too many companies rely on the big three as suppliers. Hell, even the company I work for has a small percentage of business with them....not enough to effect us if they go under, but still.

Oh and it's been said that even if they do get these loans, chances are that 90,000 - 100,000 + people will still end up out of a job. On top of the 500,000 + (not just auto workers) who were laid off last month alone.

 

[jomar]

...on the flip side, when will these guys earn $1/year?

...

Yeah, when I heard them make that claim I wondered how much they'd take home in bonuses and whatnot.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Things will remain the same because humans come in 3 basic forms: PEON, GLADIATOR, and CRIMINAL.

Peons never change government, gladiators change government, and government is always criminal. Liberators always become tyrants. Government exploits peons, and has never served ordinary people.

Bailing out GM and the rest wont sell one car, because people are losing their jobs or working fewer hours, losing their credit from late payments foreclosures etc.

Bailouts are lifeboats for the First Class Passengers, the rest of us go down with the TITANIC....and sink or swim.

 

[gauchecritic]

If I might ask one question.

Why does anyone need a 6 or 8 litre car in New York?

(please take it that I understand about fuel economy for long runs etc.)

 

[jeninflorida]

I don't understand your question ... Do you mean a V6 or V8 for the engine?

If I might ask one question.

Why does anyone need a 6 or 8 litre car in New York?

(please take it that I understand about fuel economy for long runs etc.)