Beyond Good Taste in Erotic Writing

[MSTarot]

A Writer of 'Dark' stories has a question.

We, as erotic writers, write some truly strange things. We touch on topics that range from the culturally unacceptable... to the down right illegal.

But are there topics that we shouldn't take on? Story lines we shouldn't write about? Plots we shouldn't uses?

Is there a matter of something being "not in good taste" when you writing about Uncle George paying his young (18 of course) niece to blow him.

I'm not talking about the forbidden ones (Bestiality, Underage sex, Rape) as far as the site goes. I'm thinking more along the lines of the completely unacceptable as far as our readers go.

Some examples? Hum...



A story about two young lovers set in JonesTown. With the up coming mass suicide as part of the ongoing story conflict.



Anything to do with 911 seems out of bounds. And yet I have story I'm working on where the father is one of the people to die on one of the planes. It's a story element designed to bring a lot of emotion sympathy to the character's son.

Does that seem too much?



How about a 50 year plus age gap between characters? Will Great Granny Betsy break a hip or not?



I got a comment on my Halloween story "The Lord of Devil's Night' saying that I was pushing the acceptable, in that the story takes place and has story elements pertaining to the same building where the 'Triangle Fire" took place.

That fire was nearly a hundred years ago.

When do these stop being off limit?

There are things I personally wouldn't write about because I consider them extremely gross, but then to some people what I have already wrote about is already far beyond... gross.

My question is "What are the limits of good taste in Erotica and are they personal?"

MST


And feel free to post your own personal limits, if you wish.

 

[PennLady]

I think for any genre, any limits are probably the author's own.

Sept 11 was a huge event on so many levels, it affected so many people in so many different ways, even those that weren't immediately involved or geographically close. I see no reason why the events of that day couldn't be used in a story. Whether someone thinks that's bad taste or not is up to them, it's an individual thing.

I'm reminded of the movie "United 93," which I did not see. I couldn't bring myself to see it, but not because I thought it was bad, or thought it shouldn't have been made. I simply don't want to see that particular movie because I know the outcome, and it is so tragic -- but that is only my feeling.

But people use real events as background all the time, so I don't see why any particular one should be off-limits.

Each individual will have their own limits on what they want to read or write about, but it's all opinion.

 

[Acktion]

Depending on whom you ask, by virtue of writing about two (or more) people bumping uglies, we're probably already out past matters of taste for several depending on their particular psycho-sociological bent. Don't think so? Really? So, you talk to everyone you know openly and freely about what you write?

To me, personally, airing television shows or movies, or publishing books, or even newspaper articles aggrandizing criminal behavior is not in "good taste". And yet, we have "Sons of Anarchy", "Breaking Bad", and I don't even know what titles to list. All of which could, and have been, pointed to as examples one should aspire to live up to.

Do I think they are in poor taste? Yep. Do I think they should be censored? Nope. I have not only a right, but a responsibility, to change the channel if I don't want to see it. But, I do not have the right or responsibility to tell someone else what they can/can not watch/read.

The sad fact is that the old bumper sticker from the 70's was right. "Shit happens." Usually because some egocentric asshole made it happen. I don't think there is anyone who knows about Jonestown that wouldn't think it was a tragedy. Or Nine Eleven. Or the Manson Cult murders. Or... or... or...

More often than not, it seems to me (and it is just my opinion), that people claim that something is in bad taste to talk about because they are uncomfortable thinking about it. Or because it might potentially make someone they know uncomfortable to think about. It might make them sad, or angry. They emotionally shut down on the topic and wall it off. To that end, I see the limits of good taste as a personal choice, albeit one colored by social pressures, for the most part.

However, I notice that you, yourself, drew a couple of lines. For example, in the Jonestown lovers, you didn't make one of them Jim Jones himself. You mention the father was one of the people to die on the planes, but you didn't make him one of the terrorists. Would that be pushing the bounds of good taste too far even for you?

As for Granny Betsy... well, I supposed the question would be would a 68+ woman be interested at all, much less in the sexual antics of an 18 year old? Some are and some aren't.

I'd say if it doesn't violate the rules of the site, and you want to write it, go for it. Honesty compels me to admit that I probably wouldn't read much of it since I'm not into the darker styles. But, the same honesty compels me to say that that would be my personal choice and shouldn't color what is acceptable to other writers and readers of erotic fiction.

 

[MSTarot]

I guess you could say I try for the full gradient style of stories. I run from almost sickeningly sweet, to stuff that I look back on and go "Damn! Did I write that?"

I try to bring across a lot of emotion in the story as well and sometimes that can have a very negative outcome on the reader.

While I am first and foremost writing the story for myself, I mean I read as much of my own stuff as I do others at times, I do want the readers to enjoy the story.

Or at least to have an emotional response. Be that a hard-on, anger, tears or the least favorite... rising bile.

I do write what I want to. I just wonder if there are themes that other writer have tried and been told off for writing about. Cause I've had a few that have gotten me some lovely comments.

Terrible story

I hated this story. Crazy old Fuck torturing kids. Bad enough when adults get tortured but don't do that with kids. You can and have written better stories than this.


I Retched And Couldn't Finish Reading It

How could someone do such a thing to his sis? I've been having a secret loving incestuous relationship with my sis since our mid teen and I'm horrified that someone would think of such a story plot. It's so god damn disgusting I think I'm going to sick.



You write weird stories you get weird comments. Well, back to writing.

 

[StrangeLife]

Yeah, 9-11 is a bit too soon (though it would be a great plot device to punish a pair of cheaters: "Lets sneak up to my office on the 95th floor and I promise you that I will make you hotter than ever before..." )

Titanic is ok though... or Jonestown... and if you want to write about Manson having an orgy at the Spahn Ranch go right ahead as far as I'm concerned.

 

[TamLin01]

Um, based on what? Are there some topics you can't write about without making some people angry, you mean? Yes, certainly. But to be honest, that can be virtually any topic. Seems to me the only limits are A) what you want to write about, and B) what degree of crap you're willing to take over it.

 

[MichaelWest]

My question is "What are the limits of good taste in Erotica and are they personal?"

MST

And feel free to post your own personal limits, if you wish.

The issue of censorship to a writer feels very touchy, it feels as if it is easy to say "no" not only to other's censoring but to censoring oneself. Yet, I do it all the time. Yes, I believe there is a limit of so-called "good taste" and it is personal to me and I excercise it, for good or bad.

My challenge is to push a boundary, nudge a line and stretch a story into something I find difficult or disturbing or distasteful while keeping it erotic. An example might be Ass-to-Mouth. Literally in "bad taste" as it were, but not to those that enjoy it and certainly can be expressed in terms of "intimacy", "humiliation", "passion", and so forth. A writer can take the act and cast it in context as extreme or sublime, gross or delectable, violent or loving, etc.

For example, I find it in bad taste to use real people or obviously betray their secrets for mere entertainment. I find blackmail and genuine non-consent distasteful, and I do not like blood, vomit or feces. A story that uses these things to titilate strikes me as in bad taste. Yet, I enjoy and participate in some kinky stuff that others certainly find equally or more "in bad taste."

Sometimes I read a story that feels in bad taste to me, has elements I do not find erotic although the author did. Often I find it very inspiring to do my own version, twist or remove the things that squicked me and see if I can write a story that I find personally erotic past the point the author lost me. So I admit that "bad taste" is not merely in the eye of the beholder but sometimes a healthy challenge to oneself.

 

[Hypoxia]

"Taste is in the mouth of the taster" or something like that.

Facts:

* Somebody will ALWAYS hate some of what we write.
* Somebody can ALWAYS find points to criticize, whether or not they bother to do so.
* You can't always please everybody. Cf A.Lincoln on fooling people.
* Some of our audiences are demonstrably clinically insane.

Anything posted in LOVING WIVES (and in INCEST-TABOO to a lesser extent) will draw a large insane audience. Audiences in other cats, like ROMANCE and MATURE and GROUP SEX, are rather more mellow, but there are fewer of them.

What any audience in general will find 'tasteful' varies with the category. Violent non-con sex probably won't be welcomed much in ROMANCE even if the story veers to a romantic ending. Yes, choose your target audience.

I also like pushing or breaking boundaries, and I have slews of hatemail to prove it. I rather like being Hypoxia, DOS (Disturber Of Shit). Shit-disturbers have a major role in many areas. Just wait till RANDY'S REVENGE (THE PHARMACIST) hits the screen here. I expect a deluge of hate on that one.

I really don't care if you have good taste. But, do you taste good?

 

[Handley_Page]

I think for any genre, any limits are probably the author's own.

Sept 11 was a huge event on so many levels, . . . Whether someone thinks that's bad taste or not is up to them, it's an individual thing.

I'm reminded of the movie "United 93," which I did not see.

Each individual will have their own limits on what they want to read or write about, but it's all opinion.

Until I saw that movie, I had thought that the US media had quietly forgotten about the other two aircraft; And it's strange how little information remains about the one that crashed on the Pentagon (Eh?).

Of course, we over here, may not have regarded the 9/11 event in quite the same way as the majority of US citizenry. And we had 7/7 to deal with, of course: As well as IRA bombings.

Commiserations to the affected.

 

[StrangeLife]

And it's strange how little information remains about the one that crashed on the Pentagon (Eh?).

If you've ever worked there it won't surprise you. Upon entering you get a stack of non-disclosure stuff to sign - and then you get another stack where you have to agree to not disclose the fact that you have agreed to not disclose the other stuff and so on. In general they aren't big on publicity in places like that.



As far as 9-11 goes, I think part of it is, that we're not used to getting attacked at home. Even WW2 wasn't felt much in mainland-USA. While the Brits were running around with hard-hats, hiding in the subway and turning out the lights in fear of German bombs life pretty much went on as usual in cities like New York or Los Angeles.

And the WTC wasn't just any building. It was pretty darned big and a main part of the NY skyline...

 

[oggbashan]

...
As far as 9-11 goes, I think part of it is, that we're not used to getting attacked at home. Even WW2 wasn't felt much in mainland-USA. While the Brits were running around with hard-hats, hiding in the subway and turning out the lights in fear of German bombs life pretty much went on as usual in cities like New York or Los Angeles.

And the WTC wasn't just any building. It was pretty darned big and a main part of the NY skyline...

My family were made homeless by a bomb dropped on the City of London by a Zeppelin in 1915. My wife's family witnessed their town, Hull, being shelled by German ships in World War 1.

Germany had been largely unaffected by the destruction in World War 1, except for losing territory. France and Belgium suffered most.

In World War 2, part of my family were made homeless by bombs from the Luftwaffe.

Buckingham Palace and the Houses of Parliament were damaged by bombing in World War 2. Large parts of Central London were destroyed, and Coventry, Plymouth...

The RAF, the USAAF, and the Allied Ground Forces including the Red Army made certain that Germany, having sown the wind in World War 2, reaped the whirlwind in destruction of their cities and towns.

9/11 was a real shock to the US. A similar attack in the UK wouldn't have had the same impact on the people. German attacks in World Wars 1 and 2, and terrorist attacks by various groups including the IRA had made us more prepared for future atrocities.

As for whether 9/11 is out of bounds for story writers, my opinion would be that it is not, but the story needs to treat 9/11 sensitively because of its resonance in the US and other countries that lost their nationals on that day.

But that won't stop Hollywood making movies about it for years to come.

 

[Swilly]

I think that which is beyond good taste is likely to be a personal thing, or at least in most cases. Of course, writing something for the sole purpose of trying to be offensive is in poor taste. For instance, writing a story about Jesus having sex with the Virgin Mary, or Muhammad participating in a gay male orgy would have to be done with intent to offend. If the intent is solely to offend, then it is in poor taste.

Without a doubt, stories about cheating spouses, incest, rape, etc. will always be offensive to some, and perhaps many, people. However, stories such as this aren't necessarily intended to be offensive.

I'll use 9/11 as an example. Picture a couple trapped in a building with no way out, certain they are going to meet their end. They reach out to each other, enjoying their last moments on earth and grasping for a final moment of love and humanity before they perish. Such a story is about people, and how they are reacting to an unimaginable situation. Some would be offended. Others would see a bigger picture.

 

[SecondCircle]

I think if someone is offended by what they are reading, they should stop reading it and move on.

 

[oggbashan]

I think if someone is offended by what they are reading, they should stop reading it and move on.

But they don't. Some comments are from people who shouldn't be on an erotica site, or who don't understand the concept of fiction.

 

[sr71plt]

But they don't. Some comments are from people who shouldn't be on an erotica site, or who don't understand the concept of fiction.

That's true. No reason why anyone needs to give them the time of day, though. On the OP, I say let the Web site take responsibility for the limits of what it will publish and the rest tend to their own knitting. If you find a certain topic/approach reprehensible don't write it or read it.

 

[SecondCircle]

But they don't. Some comments are from people who shouldn't be on an erotica site, or who don't understand the concept of fiction.

Aye and it's these people WE must choose not to listen to. If we are offended by those people, don't listen.

Regarding feedback of someone saying "that's crossing the line," or "too soon" I treat it like any other feedback. I stand back and look at the feedback as a whole. 40 offended readers aren't really gonna convince me I went too far when there's 120 readers that loved it and thought it was edgy. Nevertheless, I take everyone into account. Moderate using the good with the bad to tip the scale for future stories.

Or something.

 

[StrangeLife]

9/11 was a real shock to the US. A similar attack in the UK wouldn't have had the same impact on the people. German attacks in World Wars 1 and 2, and terrorist attacks by various groups including the IRA had made us more prepared for future atrocities.

As for whether 9/11 is out of bounds for story writers, my opinion would be that it is not, but the story needs to treat 9/11 sensitively because of its resonance in the US and other countries that lost their nationals on that day.

But that won't stop Hollywood making movies about it for years to come.

Yow! Your family has been particularly hard hit by the wars

A good thing the cold war is over - otherwise it wouldn't take much extrapolation to imagine what house would be hit by the first sovjet nuke...


But I can't imagine any target in Britain short of Buckingham Palace or Houses of Parliament that could shake the famous British cool in the same manner that the WTC bombings shook America. The IRA would have to work a lot harder at it than Al Qaeda for sure. The world wars may be long over, but they seem to have hardened the Europeans so thoroughly that it still influences most people over there to this day.

 

[sr71plt]

9/11 shook Britain too (and other countries). The British PM at the time said so, pointing out, correctly and much to his credit, that Brits had died in the buildings as well--that it was the World Trade Center, home to international companies--thus an attack on Great Britain too--and we can be sure that this was known to al Qaida and factored into this being the target. 9/11 isn't just an American "thing."

 

[MSTarot]

9/11 was a real shock to the US. A similar attack in the UK wouldn't have had the same impact on the people. German attacks in World Wars 1 and 2, and terrorist attacks by various groups including the IRA had made us more prepared for future atrocities.(

This is the opinion of someone from outside looking in but in my opinion it's not just that England has had to deal with so much in the last century but in the last 20.

Your nation has been invaded and attacked so many times and under treat of attack so many times, by so many different counties, that these is a sense of pride in the fact. A "We can take it and endure no matter what!" nobility to the people of England.

England is the old tree that has endure many a storm. She may bare the scares of lightning down her side and branches have fallen and been lost but the roots go deep.

America, for all our pride and history, is still god awful young. And like most young people we have that feeling of immortality that youth brings with it.

There is a movie quote that comes to mind. No great historical flic but a modern one with a lot to say. From the movie the Crow.

"Childhood's over the moment you know you're gonna die."


In a way that was what 911 felt like from an American point of view. It was the end of my generations childhood... no matter how old you were at the time.


I try to hook harnesses of words to emotions and ride them into people. Well, there are some emotions out there that are like hooking a harness to a tiger. While it will no doubt be hell of a ride, the getting off D) may not be as easy as getting on was.

 

[oggbashan]

This is the opinion of someone from outside looking in but in my opinion it's not just that England has had to deal with so much in the last century but in the last 20.
...
England is the old tree that has endure many a storm. She may bare the scares of lightning down her side and branches have fallen and been lost but the roots go deep.
...
America, for all our pride and history, is still god awful young. And like most young people we have that feeling of immortality that youth brings with it.

...

I have reduced your quote to reply.

From my house I can see defences from WW2. A short walk away are archaeological remains from the Bronze Age, and a Roman Fort. If I look carefully as I walk along footpaths through fields and woods I might find a Stone Age hand axe.

In Dover Museum is a Bronze Age boat that used to ferry trade goods across the English Channel. In the sea below Dover Castle, which includes a Roman Lighthouse built within an Iron Age Fort, is a shipwreck that was carrying bronze axes imported from France. A few hundred yards away are wrecks of ships torpedoed in World Wars 1 and 2.

Dover Castle shows signs of a Medieval siege by the French. The Castle was modernised to oppose Napoleon Bonaparte. On the opposite hill, the Western Heights have massive fortifications built to defend against Napoleon III.

Underneath Dover Castle are tunnels built originally to defend against the French Kings. They were adapted and extended to defend against Napoleon Bonaparte, used in World Wars 1 and 2, notably for the evacuation of Dunkirk, and modernised again to be a nuclear shelter and command post during the Cold War.

My town didn't really exist at the start of the 19th Century. There were a few fishermen's huts and a 18th Century gun battery to defend against the French. A public house was built to serve the soldiers. Upstairs was a restaurant and dancing room for the officers. Downstairs was a beer room for the soldiers, and behind that rooms for the prostitutes.

We have long memories. The town of Sandwich in Kent was attacked by the French:

Wikipedia
On 28 August 1457, after four years of uneasy peace in England the king presided over a wasting realm, with feudal barons lording over the population of the north and the west of the realm. The French took advantage of the situation by sending a raiding party to Kent, burning much of Sandwich to the ground. A force of around 4,000 men from Honfleur, under the command of Marshal de Breze came ashore to pillage the town, in the process murdering the mayor, John Drury. It thereafter became an established tradition, which survives to this day, that the Mayor of Sandwich wears a black robe in mourning for this ignoble deed.

No longer true. Sandwich twinned with Honfleur in the 1960s and as a mark of their friendship, the Mayor of Sandwich reverted to the pre-1457 red robe.

Honfleur had been raided more frequently by men from Sandwich than Honfleur had attached Sandwich. 1457 was just one of many feuds between the two towns.

But while we forgive, we don't forget. Honfleur has a procession of Giants. Sandwich made its own Giant to join the procession in Honfleur. Who did the Giant represent?

John Drury, Sandwich's murdered Mayor, of course!

 

[sr71plt]

In a way that was what 911 felt like from an American point of view. It was the end of my generations childhood... no matter how old you were at the time.

I can see that (for the generation after mine). Interestingly enough (I think), those of us who were working on terrorism in that period and just waiting for something like this to slip through the cracks and happen while we knew what the threat level was--and the impossibility in an open society to counter it all (shades of the NSA argument of the moment)--and doing everything we could to define the threat to a society too busy just enjoying its toys--were already ruminating on this.

We noted that my generation was more prepared for 9/ll fallout, because our eye-opener and end of innocence were the round of political assassinations in the states--John and Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr. We speculated that something like the World Trade Center (which had been attacked before) would be the end of innocence for the generation after ours.

The generation before ours had had this "end of innocence" too, but it was more gradual and more remote for Americans that the political assassinations and 9/ll were for succeeding generations. It was WWII and the atrocities of the Hitler regime that did it for that generation (the event for Americans being Pearl Harbor, probably). Europeans and Asians felt it deeper and earlier than Americans did as it was later and on foreign soil for Americans (but Americans did go off to war in that period).

Quite possibly the loss of innocence for the generation before that was the Stock Market crash felt around the world.

Wonder what the loss of innocence for today's generation will be. Someone successfully putting down all electronic communications for long enough to cause worldwide havoc? Doing ourselves in by mucking around with and tipping the balance of earth elements and denying it is happening?

 

[Bramblethorn]

But are there topics that we shouldn't take on? Story lines we shouldn't write about? Plots we shouldn't uses?

...

Anything to do with 911 seems out of bounds. And yet I have story I'm working on where the father is one of the people to die on one of the planes. It's a story element designed to bring a lot of emotion sympathy to the character's son.

I don't think there are any topics that should be completely banned, but there are some that should be approached with caution and sensitivity, especially those that are likely to distress readers.

Both Castle and CSI:NY have featured characters who lost loved ones in 911 (probably other shows too, I don't watch a lot of TV). So it doesn't seem "too soon" for me, as long as it's approached respectfully; it'd probably be more jarring if a modern-day NY cop show didn't acknowledge 911.

One option that might be useful is creating a fictional parallel. If you have a story idea about two emergency services people falling in love in the wake of 911, but it feels like it might be distasteful, move it to another city and make it a huge gas explosion or whatever.

Of course, some people just throw good taste to the winds and take their lumps.

How about a 50 year plus age gap between characters? Will Great Granny Betsy break a hip or not?

Could be interesting as a serious story: arranged/political marriage with a huge age gap, how do both parties deal with it?

Or if you really wanted flamebait, Leni Riefenstahl/Horst Kettner; it's only a forty-year gap but I think the Nazi angle makes up for that.

And feel free to post your own personal limits, if you wish.

Some of mine:

I try to avoid anything that (in my judgement) encourages readers to be nasty to one another. I believe that even with fiction, people often pick up moral cues from what they read. Some implications of that:

- No BTB stories (revenge porn).
- Nothing that implies that anybody has the right to sex with a nonconsenting partner in any circumstances. (I don't have a problem with people getting off on NC fantasy when they understand that IRL this is bad and wrong. It's when they start to make excuses for why this behaviour is OK that it gets reeeally problematic.)
- No "stalking is wuv"
- Caution with power-imbalance situations: if I write about a professor falling in love with his student, I'm going to be acknowledging why that can very easily go horribly wrong, and not just the "we might get caught" aspects.
- If I'm writing about a disadvantaged group in society, I'll do my best to avoid encouraging stereotypes etc that are harmful to that group.

I think that which is beyond good taste is likely to be a personal thing, or at least in most cases. Of course, writing something for the sole purpose of trying to be offensive is in poor taste. For instance, writing a story about Jesus having sex with the Virgin Mary, or Muhammad participating in a gay male orgy would have to be done with intent to offend.

Most likely, but not necessarily. It can also be a political act: a way of asserting the right to free speech even when that speech might be offensive.

I think if someone is offended by what they are reading, they should stop reading it and move on.

Mostly, yeah. I don't aim to offend my readers, but some of them certainly will be offended by what I write, and I don't lose sleep over it.

My limits are more about harming people, whether readers or people they interact with.

 

[StrangeLife]

I have this plot-idea featuring a steam-roller driver getting a blowjob while working. He is thus so distracted that he runs over a panda...

 

[MSTarot]

I have this plot-idea featuring a steam-roller driver getting a blowjob while working. He is thus so distracted that he runs over a panda...

...that was just about to mate, right? It's a good Earthday story idea.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I have this plot-idea featuring a steam-roller driver getting a blowjob while working. He is thus so distracted that he runs over a panda...

Shades of "Tropic Thunder"...