Beta Reader Feedback Style

[PennyThompson]

from that point on, I see two choices, and both would bother me a lot. The first is to reject your idea and keep everything as it is, and let the story be worse for it.
The second is to embrace your idea and rewrite the character and make the story better... but not fully mine anymore. I didn't come up with that, and the "coming up" part of writing is very important to me.
It's basically no different than asking AI to come up with an idea for you, except from an ethical standpoint.

I don't think I totally understand this? It would be like if you were driving in your car and stopped at a stop light and someone pulled up next to you and told you your gas cap was open. Do you just keep driving around with the gas cap open, angry at yourself for not noticing but unwilling to pull over and close the lid?

 

[Djmac1031]

Say Stephen King asks a reader to beta read for him.

Stephen King has admitted taking suggestions and advice from his wife all the time.

accepting good advice doesn’t invalidate your art or make it any less YOUR art.

 

[Omenainen]

Thanks. Anyway, the question is quite relevant to this topic. So... does anyone see the concept of having a beta reader(s) as a writing crutch?
….

So, is it still truly and fully the author's story then? I assume such a story is likely to be better, but also less authentic, and in a way not a true showing of the author's skill? It's these last parts that had me obsessing and ultimately reject beta reading, at least if it comes from peers.

How do you feel about mainstream writers having editors and whatnot? In my understanding, though I haven’t published traditionally, it’s quite common for the publisher to impose things on the work like “needs to be 50k shorter” or maybe even dictate something about the content. And having an editor go through the work makes it be not 100% that author’s work, even if the author approves of the edits, does it not?

Why should a story be a “true showing of the author’s skill?” Who are you proving yourself to? Is this some kind of a test? I thought we were writing smut anonymously

I see writing as storytelling, and the function of beta reading, in my mind, is to give feedback on how that story comes across. Often writers have things in their head that they either don’t put on the paper, or edit out, and readers will be puzzled for it. This is good info for the author, and I don’t think it in any way compromises the story. Reading your own work objectively gets hard.

That being said, I’ve also encountered stories that have been mangled to utter messes because the author tried to change them according to previous beta readers’ opinions, so not everyone have a clear idea of their story and the mind to stick to it. Though maybe they do now, after that experience. Live and learn.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don't think I totally understand this? It would be like if you were driving in your car and stopped at a stop light and someone pulled up next to you and told you your gas cap was open. Do you just keep driving around with the gas cap open, angry at yourself for not noticing but unwilling to pull over and close the lid?

I also didn't really mean some technical things about, say, a beta reader pointing out that a copying machine or a toaster doesn't work exactly in the way you described. It was more about writing concepts, character development, plot pacing, world building, foreshadowing, etc. A peer beta-reader can have a lot to say about those things.

 

[alohadave]

See, that's it. She saw something you didn't see and told you how it negatively influences the story. So if you didn't see it yourself or thought of it yourself, is it still fully your story, a showing of your skill? I never meant this in the sense that beta readers actually write something for you. But pointing out deficiencies and giving ideas is still an integral part of writing. I see it as such, at least.
I understand people see these things differently, so I am not trying to poke anyone, but I can't help feeling that way.

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. But IMO, collaboration isn't a bad thing, and if someone helps me make my work stronger, it makes the result better, and that's better than having a weakness in the story go unaddressed or unrecognized.

No man is an island, and all that implies.

 

[Nynah]

It's basically no different than asking AI to come up with an idea for you, except from an ethical standpoint.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[alohadave]

I

This is pretty much exactly how I've done it a few times. I'm a wheel of time fan. That means I've read the series several times. I like to find blogs where someone is reading it and writing their impressions, thoughts, reactions and questions in real time as they go along, and read along with one of those as I re-read the books. So that kind of thing's been an influence on how I write up reactions to stuff I read.

There have been so many times that I've read threads on /r/books and gotten a much deeper understanding and alternate viewpoints of something I've read by seeing what others have said.

 

[alohadave]

The second is to embrace your idea and rewrite the character and make the story better... but not fully mine anymore. I didn't come up with that, and the "coming up" part of writing is very important to me.
It's basically no different than asking AI to come up with an idea for you, except from an ethical standpoint.

You are still the one doing the rewriting. In this scenario, the problem was pointed out to you, how you fix it is your work.

 

[Nynah]

It was more about writing concepts, character development, plot pacing, world building, foreshadowing, etc. A peer beta-reader can have a lot to say about those things.

There are a few examples of books written by authors who share the credit; Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman of mostly sword and sorcery fame, Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens of mostly sci-fi fame, etc. These are collaborations, to be sure.

I don't think beta reading something rises to the level of collaborating with an author. Sure, a beta reader might have a lot to say about those things but as many others here have said, it's up to the author seeking the beta reader's feedback whether or not to incorporate it into their work. If there's a back and forth and the author allows this hypothetical beta reader to make such substantive edits to the original work that it fundamentally changes it, then maybe there is an argument it's no longer wholly the author's, but again, the author should set those parameters from the start.

 

[EmilyMiller]

So, from that point on, I see two choices, and both would bother me a lot. The first is to reject your idea and keep everything as it is, and let the story be worse for it.

If someone identifies as major weakness in what I have written, then first of all thanks. I want to learn and improve. But, in this case, my go to is: how can I (me) sort this out? I often come up with a different solution, which is based on my privileged knowledge of the characters and plot.

If the suggestion is instead a micro one, like ‘that word was probably superfluous,’ I don’t feel my artistic integrity is compromised by either saying, ‘yeah, it’s gone,’ or ‘nah! I like it.’

It’s seldom as black and white as you seem to suggest. And I feel totally secure about accepting constructive ideas.

I think some of that is my scientific background, where you always assume you don’t know everything about a subject and leverage other people.

 

[EmilyMiller]

absolutely yes. One of my primary goals as a beta reader is to catch any mistakes the author may have missed.



generally, yes. The author can then decide if they want to alter things to be more factual or if they prefer a less strictly realistic approach.



it depends. If I dont quite understand the intent behind the way something was worded ill point it out and ask if it was intentional or if it needs to altered for clarity.



Yes. I make it a goal to NEVER try and tell another author how to write their own story.

I'll make suggestions. perhaps provide an example of how I might change something to make it more clear.

But in the end I always stress my suggestions are simply that: MY suggestions. Whether the author chooses to accept them or not is up to them, and I am never offended if my suggestions are rejected.



As an example of the point i stressed above. @EmilyMiller and I work well together because we have a very clear understanding of what our role is as a beta reader. We never try to force each other to change something just because we wouldn't do it that way.

Two words… Iron Man

 

[ElectricBlue]

Reading this thread - which is fascinating - and having had a pair of beta readers both at the same time, at an important point in my Lit writing, I've twigged as to why I no longer use or need beta readers.

First is because my spontaneous pure pantser style means I don't know where the story is going, so no-one else does either. Any input they might give can only be in the context of what I've already written, and I rarely if ever go back and change that.

Second is because I found myself saying, yes, nice idea, good input, but found myself writing something else anyway, something I wanted to write.

So in effect they became my greatest fan boy and girl, giving me great enthusiasm but not so much real guidance, but giving it me exactly when I needed it. Not like a whip, but more the encouragement. Writing The Dark Chronicles was a long slog, took ten months with nothing else published, and I've not written the same way since, and can't see myself doing so again.

As important in a way, and I'm sure she'll be surprised when she reads this; in a review of story by @AwkwardMD she made this comment:

The confidence that Adam has, that I mentioned earlier? That’s your confidence, and it shows up best in this aspect. You control the later scenes really well, especially in the second half of the story.

She saw that confidence, and my two beta readers (who came later) reinforced it, and armed with that knowledge in my toolbox, I've since gone on with the attitude, "I can do this," and have also had the sense to say, "No, I can't."

I must say I'm surprised to find @PennyThompson using such a number of beta readers with her latest work, because I thought she was bloody good from the get go, why would she seek so much input? The confidence thing, perhaps? I don't know.

At the end of the day, though, how will a reader ever know what influence or impact beta readers might have? We never see the before and after versions.

 

[Djmac1031]

Two words… Iron Man

A little inside joke between us. But the point is, I pitch ideas to @EmilyMiller all the time. And she's probably rejected 99.9% of them.

The few she accepts she often gratefully acknowledges in her credits, although I never ask for that.

most times my suggestions aren't plot changing or alter the story in any major way.

And again, a suggestion is merely that, a suggestion. I certainly don't write it FOR her. Nor would I want to.

Except those times we're actually collaborating on a story together of course. But that's a different thing entirely.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Thanks. Anyway, the question is quite relevant to this topic. So... does anyone see the concept of having a beta reader(s) as a writing crutch?
I've been asked once to beta read a Lit story, and had more than one offer from readers to beta read my stuff. I declined every time. I obsessed over the concept of beta reading for a while and couldn't decide one way or the other. The potential issue I see with it is even more pronounced here on Lit.

Say Stephen King asks a reader to beta read for him. It's probably not an issue as it's just a normal reader giving their impressions on the story. The difference in their writing skills is likely immense. And King might make a tiny adjustment due to the feedback, or he might not.

But here on Lit, I see that many authors have other authors as beta readers. I assume many set some boundaries over the input they are ready to receive, but still, it's peers giving opinions on a yet unpublished story. Their input might sway the author and influence a minor or major change in the way some character is portrayed, the way the plot is moving, the consistency of worldbuilding, etc. Can you imagine Sanderson giving beta-reader feedback to G.R.R.M., for example? This is kinda the same.

So, is it still truly and fully the author's story then?

I see this as aiming for a kind of "purity" that I don't think is either desirable or achievable.

When I write, my writing is inevitably going to be influenced by things I've read. That doesn't mean it's okay to just copy one of King's stories, of course! But I can look at his stories or read his how-to book and see what works for me, as a reader, and consider whether to incorporate some of that into my style as an author. I'm also influenced by the people around me, the things I read in the news, all kinds of things affect what I end up writing. The story is still primarily mine but you can find traces of a thousand other things in it. (And if you look at King's work, you'll find traces of Lovecraft and others before him.)

Beta readers work the same way. Yes, if I accept a suggestion from a beta, it's no longer 100% my baby, but it never was anyway.

It is possible for that contribution to go too far, especially if the beta reader has radically different ideas about where the story should be going, but IME authors are unlikely to take that level of suggestion from a beta.

Re. authors giving beta-reader input to one another, my impression from reading the acknowledgements in published books is that this is a pretty common thing in professional writing.

 

[iwatchus]

I have only been a beta reader for one story and I am not sure I gave the author what he was hoping for. He was hoping for continuity checks and I ended up proofreading more than anything. I know with my own writing, I cannot really start wordsmithing it until I stop finding typos. Maybe there were no continuity errors; I never found any. But I did point out a bunch of formatting/pslelling/punctuation errors, gave a few suggested word changes, and pointed out one chunk where the writing felt stilted.

My SO has been a beta reader for only a couple of my stories, mostly for my nude day entry, so I guess it helped there. They have made several good suggestions on the stories they did read. From that experience, I mostly would like a beta read who will tell me when something seems out of the blue or unsupported, usually because I never explained enough of what I know is going on.

My SO read the first two chapters of my current WIP, my first novel (120K). But their health is slipping again and they find it tiring and stressful to read my work, so I am not sure I will get a good reading for it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

And she's probably rejected 99.9% of them.

Not fair. 99.7% at most.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Partially inspired by Penny's lovely thread for fêting beta readers and partially because I am myself currently beta reading another friend's story, I have to ask: For those of us who are authors but also do beta reading* for other authors here, what is your style of giving feedback?

• Do you go through and look for errors in grammar/spelling, more in a proofreader/copyeditor sense?
• How far do you go for factual accuracy? (Ex. the author has clearly depicted some sort of thing or process in such a way that is incorrect; do you point this out?)
• Do you ask why authors say things in certain ways or question how they've described a character/setting/place? Or do you just let the story stand on its own as the author has presented it to you?
• Does being an author yourself inform how you beta read for someone else?

Obviously some authors clearly state the parameters of how and on what they want to receive feedback, so I suppose these questions are posed to the readers who are given more free rein with their commentary.

*(I am aware that there are semantic arguments to be had about alpha vs. beta readers but for the purposes of this question I just mean the people you trust to read your work after you're mostly done with it, but are open to changing significant portions if needed.)

Having sat on both sides of the fence. I think I can say. I love having my story read by readers... Proof reading, or as a beta reader. They offer fresh eyes, and a different perspective.
Sometimes it's simple stuff, like A character has acted out of character, or I've got time sequences mixed up...
Personally, I feel indebted to the people that have helped me over my brief time as a wannabe writer. It might be unfair of me to list the names of the people who selflessly offered to help me. They all recognised my weakness with grammar...
I like anybody reading, editing, proof reading to be completely honest and frank. I am never offended or insulted, when they offer, a change, or make a suggestion... Oppositely, I'm grateful.

I must say I often struggle functioning as a beta reader. I probably take it a little far. My suggestions perhaps cutting to deep. I like to eliminate unnecessary words...
That said, I do say any suggestions I make are purely that... Suggestions only. Not a criticism of the author.

Somebody asked if using an editor/ reader takes away your voice? Or whether the story is yours after multiple people have offered suggestions and changes????
Absolutely. An editor may suggest changes. You as the writer hold control. You can either accept or reject... That is your choice...
For many of my stories, I was blessed to have the most popular editor in Literotica assisting me. She changed a lot about the way I approached a story... Made me think more like an actual writer...

Not that I claim to be any good, she just made me better. Over time we also became very close friends. For that I shall forever be thankful...

Anybody that gets a chance to work with Editors, Beta/ Alpha readers, Proof readers. Should grab it firmly with both hands. It can only improve you... Gotta say, I'm a bit curious about the difference between alpha and Beta readers. I prefer to think of them as editors... One and all... They offer suggestions, pick up faults...

Just my thoughts
Cagivagurl

 

[Erozetta]

When I read for someone, I often ask them what they are looking to get out of it. Do they want input on plot? Pointing out errors? Pacing issues? Overall impression? Theme consistency? Characterization? Do they just want someone to pre-read and say it's good/bad?

I've had a few people read and edit various things of mine. Two more consistently than others, and I read and edit for them as well.

The one common thing is me saying "I'm undoubtedly biased by own writing experiences and expectations, use what you find helpful, discard the rest, it's your story, these are just my impressions and thoughts, nothing more."

My goal is to ensure the strengths outweigh the negatives, not to perfect it.

I've had a few stories I tried to read and edit that I just did not like at all and I didn't finish them. I made notes on the first few pages, then sent them the notes with the things that needed fixed (most often grammar made it hard as hell to read.) and I'd go over it again when they did that.

I've gone over some stories/books multiple times with some writers. I will be harsh if something is stupid, slowing down the pace, making it hard to read, or otherwise just doesn't work, even if, and maybe especially if, it seems like a major component of the story. "You don't have to nix it, but your story is worse with this as is." Most often that's a pacing issue. "The people who will like the rest of the story, are never going to get past this point. You are losing readers because of *this* one aspect. If you're writing it for yourself and not to draw readers, leave it as is. If you want readers, you need to address this issue better."

But it's always still followed up with "This is my take on it. Others will disagree. I'm just offering one opinion, do with it what you will."

But, regardless of what an author asks me to do, I can't help but point out errors. Particularly when I'm confident it was a typo resulting in the wrong word being used. (And sometimes I'm wrong on the wording that intended, but still right on the one that was used was wrong.) And I tend to catch errors better in the works of others than in my own.

Currently, I can't edit for anyone. I'm in the process of moving, and I have two September deadlines approaching for projects I'm working on. I just edited/reviewed two novels, a short story, and two novellas for three different authors, now I'm working on my deadline projects.

I also offer input on cover designs, blurbs, taglines, titles (god only knows why since I suck at the last three.) and character names/outfits/feminine reactions, and a *lot* of correcting female anatomy and behaviors, particularly around mental health diagnoses.

But, mostly, it's socializing with people I consider friends. I've co-authored a story with one of the people I read for. I've done some dystopian roleplay with another. Started a podcast on writing with the third I read for regularly. Beta reading has basically been a path to friendship for me. They've never corrected or suggested a change to my story without giving me a reason of "why" to go with the suggestion. And I try to do the same, I'm just more snarky about it. ("This part really pulled me out of the story, consider nixing" vs my "This doesn't work, have you considered moving it to the trash and seeing if it works better there?")

I have other stories I want to edit and have running edits going, I just haven't had time to get through the entire thing yet 'cause life.

So, for me, beta reading and having beta readers is equal parts learning from better writers than me, improving my technical writing skills, and weaseling my way into friendships before they fully realize I'm quite fucked up and back out.

 

[TheLobster]

It would be like if you were driving in your car and stopped at a stop light and someone pulled up next to you and told you your gas cap was open.

An open gas cap is not a part of your artistic expression as a driver; it’s a fire hazard, and everyone sane would agree you should not drive like that.

The makeup of a character, even he is sketched in a weak or inconsistent way, is how the author chose to exercise his artistic abilities to portray him. That choice might be subconscious but it doesn’t make it any less of a choice, and beta reader’s opinion by its very nature clashes with that and forces a resolution that @AwkwardlySet was talking about.

You might say, “But what if the author finds the issues and changes the character during the editing pass?” Sure, but that’s still a choice the author made, to make that pass because the story didn’t feel like it was done yet.

I must say I'm surprised to find @PennyThompson using such a number of beta readers with her latest work, because I thought she was bloody good from the get go, why would she seek so much input? The confidence thing, perhaps? I don't know.

She clearly enjoys the social aspect of writing that arises from interactions with beta readers and other writers. I don’t think it has anything to do with skill.

When I write, my writing is inevitably going to be influenced by things I've read.

This is an unhelpful generalization, and an apples-to-oranges comparison. Of course your writing will be influenced by every single experience you had as a human; that’s what’s great about it, and why even the 1000th rendition of mom in a backseat can be surprisingly original

But these random thoughts, stimuli and experiences that make up the inchoate mess that is the human mind are quite different from concrete, targeted feedback aimed directly at a particular work with an expectation, express or implied, that you should change it because it’s “wrong” in some way.

I just don’t think it’s very comparable, and framing it as it’s all the same results in tacitly disregarding the idea of artistic ownership that @AwkwardlySet was alluding to.

 

[THBGato]

I think the most I've changed a story due to beta-reader/editor (where's the line?) feedback is Thirty. I ended up writing 5 different versions and the final draft resulted in an entire character being cut.

I definitely feel it's a better story as a result. It also holds my personal record for highest score at 100 votes (4.97) and is my second most viewed and favourited story.

Is it still my story? Well, yeah. In the sense that anything is my story. Nothing in it is original, because originality is impossible. But I put the words in my own order to retell the separated-in-childhood-friends-to-lovers trope. So, at the very least, it's my text (except for the bits that I lifted shamelessly from song lyrics).

 

[TheRedChamber]

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but the most important concept I find in feedback is that of the 'cold read'

Give your story to your beta-reader. Tell them as little about it as possible. If it's a regular beta reader you can probably get away with simply title, category and description to match what someone clicking on the story would see. Do not tell them your own insecurities with the story. You should ideally be giving them the best version of the story you can - if you 'know' there's an obvious problem then fix it first. Otherwise let them tell you about your story. Remember that direct emotional responses to a story are valid. It's nice if a reader can articulate why and the best beta-readers are usually able to, but don't disregard simple comments like 'I was bored' or 'I was confused' just because you think they shouldn't have been.

Another key pillar of beta-reading is the concept of 'I won't be offended by any changes you suggest. You shouldn't be offended if I don't implement any of them.' If one of my readers suggests a substantial change to a story, I try to respect that by at least giving it serious consideration - playing around of my mental map of the story to at least understand why they think it would work. When a story has problems though, I might let it sit for six months and then publish it anyway, secure in the knowledge that my own muse isn't going to throw out a better solution.

If you're doing reciprical beta-reading, it's often a bad idea to start a feedback sentence with 'If this were my story...' because it's not and inevitably, the writer isn't going to take your suggestions (and if they do, it's almost impossible to read a second draft because they will still have implemented them 'wrongly') Even though we know it's a bad idea, writers who do a lot of beta-reading for each other end up falling down that rabbit hole anyway.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The more complex a story is, the more helpful a beta reader can be to me. I recently wrote a chain story chapter, which has 3 or 4 sets of characters, and the story flipped between them a fair bit as well as the timeline involving a fair bit of 'meanwhile...' I knew what everyone was doing when because I'd spent a month writing them. But would a first-time reader follow along?

At the same time there were a number of sexual and emotional scenes. Were they appropriately climactic at various times, or would a reader feel like a rollercoaster with the scariest bit near the start and then the latter half dying down so much it was boring in comparison? When reading others' drafts, I often end up writing "This is the good bit! Finally X gets to do Y! More detail, please!" Sometimes mentioning certain parts of the intro are slow or repetitive.

Recently I've been writing the story of a guy who was a minor character in a series and was mostly cut out, and cut out of another story too. So I had lots of material about his relationship with the protagonist of those over 20 years. But that's not really the story here, and a beta reader correctly pointed out that it's distracting at the start of a story, all this text about someone who isn't really involved in this story. I think a lot of it will get weaved in eventually, but not at the start, for sure.

Another story I've had beta-read, and the beta pointed out various paragraphs or sections that were unclear until re-read (v helpful), but the main takeaway was they didn't like the plot. I considered, but I've decided I like the plot anyway, so I'll finish the story. Similarly, I've provided feedback including that I hate X type of story, and this was similar to that so my bias could be showing, but if you're doing that then this scene felt kinda long and that one.kinda short...

I tell readers I don't need proofreading, though if there's obvious wrong words thanks to autocarrot or missed quotes, feel free to point out. But it's useful knowing when a phrase is alien to readers so I can decide whether to explain it or not. Apparently 'get one's leg over', ie to have sex, was alien to a recent beta, who figured it out from context. I may ensure it's clear from context.

An actual editor would have demands and be focused on making a story into what they wanted to sell, as opposed to making my own story work better, though ideally they'd be the same thing.

 

[StillStunned]

though if there's obvious wrong words thanks to autocarrot or missed quotes

Hehe.

 

[iwatchus]

Thinking about the line between advising and collaborating makes me think of the 70's musical act Loggins and Messina.

Kenny Loggins was talented, but a little raw when the studio signed him to a contract. They asked Jim Messina, who was an accomplished artist and producer at that point, to mentor him, help him refine his style. The mentoring went far enough and deep enough that Messina started get co-authoring credits on the songs. By the time Loggins's first album was nearly finished, they realized Messina had co-written every song, as well as performing on every recording. They decided to form Loggins & Messina, which was very popular, until Jim Messina cut off the end of his thumb building a treehouse for his kid and Loggins finally went solo.

caveat: I did not try to confirm any of this now. These were the stories that were circulating at the time. And fifty some years have passed since then, YTMV

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I think the most I've changed a story due to beta-reader/editor (where's the line?) feedback is Thirty. I ended up writing 5 different versions and the final draft resulted in an entire character being cut.

I definitely feel it's a better story as a result. It also holds my personal record for highest score at 100 votes (4.97) and is my second most viewed and favourited story.

Is it still my story? Well, yeah. In the sense that anything is my story. Nothing in it is original, because originality is impossible. But I put the words in my own order to retell the separated-in-childhood-friends-to-lovers trope. So, at the very least, it's my text (except for the bits that I lifted shamelessly from song lyrics).

This is an excellent example of what I was talking about.