Being a Better Writer.

[Joe Wordsworth]

Well, by the numbers it doesn't look like I'm terribly good at the writing-thing. I have considered, quite a bit, that I maybe should stick to Philo/Rel as subjects. I don't want to just write da' smut (whamin' and bamin', strictly), both because I don't know that I'd be any good at that either nor does it interest me.

Hmm.

How does one get better at the whole thing? Practice? Time? Study? I've had a number of academic opinions on it (not erotica, mind you) from poets-in-residence and the like, as well as writing instructors. Doesn't seem like there's any rule of thumb better than another.

Most tend to agree its a talent, that you've either "got it" or "you don't".

Admittedly, I'm not comfortable with mediocrity.

 

[impressive]

It might be tough ('specially for the ego), but have you considered putting your work up for public humiliation -- I mean, critique -- in the Story Discussion Circle?

I just did -- with my very first Lit. piece (of shit) that I plan to rewrite -- and it's been very helpful. Of course, I've grown out of many of the problems identified, but it's still nice to have extra eyes.

All in all, it wasn't nearly as painful as I'd anticipated. I'm not enamored of mediocrity, either -- but what I've found is that while some folks paint something as average, others just rave about it. Who ya gonna believe?

 

[wildsweetone]

hmm, some thoughts...

Read lots and then read more and widely.

Write lots and write stretching your own boundaries. Try things you've never tried before.

Hunt out a creative writing course from a reputable place and decide what your goals will be before you begin it.

Be openminded and enjoy learning and writing.

If you're not comfortable where you're at, then get out and start searching for where you'd like to be and work out how to get there.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... I'm not comfortable with mediocrity.

I'm no expert, but I believe that's part of it.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: hmm, some thoughts...

Read lots and then read more and widely.

Write lots and write stretching your own boundaries. Try things you've never tried before.

Hunt out a creative writing course from a reputable place and decide what your goals will be before you begin it.

Be openminded and enjoy learning and writing.

If you're not comfortable where you're at, then get out and start searching for where you'd like to be and work out how to get there.

Ditto. Except I wouldn't do the course.

The secret to writing well is to have a very good imagination and decent technique. To get these things you have to read a shitload and dream and then write.

If your problem is imagination then simply try harder to wonder about the whatifs and if your problem is technique, then read the professionals, watch how they turn phrases and let it permutate to your subconscious.

I also agree with your profs that at the end of the day you most likely either have it or you don't.

 

[McKenna]

How does one get better at the whole thing? Practice? Time? Study?

Maybe a little of all three.

As you age and mature, so does your writing and your "voice" and personal style. I've always been of the opinion if you want to write well, keep writing, and keep reading.

If you don't want to write erotica, don't. There's nothing wrong with trying out other genres until you find the one you're most comfortable with.

Here's another site you might be interested in: writing dot com.

Edited bit: There's a text that is easy to read on writing that I've enoyed, as I've had to use it for two different classes. It's called "On Writing Well" by Zinsser. Lots of good technical advice there, given in good old colloquial English.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I hate not being excellent at something. I feel only the need to try harder, that's why this is frustrating. It seems that "Trying harder" isn't the way to fix it.

Grr.

Or maybe I'm one of those authors who aren't ever appreciated until after they kick.

 

[Weird Harold]

How does one get better at the whole thing? Practice? Time? Study? I've had a number of academic opinions on it (not erotica, mind you) from poets-in-residence and the like, as well as writing instructors. Doesn't seem like there's any rule of thumb better than another.

Most tend to agree its a talent, that you've either "got it" or "you don't".

Admittedly, I'm not comfortable with mediocrity.

Writing well can be learned, but story-telling seems to be a talent you either have or don't have.

If you've got any spark of the story-telling talent, it can be nurtured and honed through a combination of training, practice and study -- all of which take time.

The thing that most academic opinions fail to take into account is that ther are two skills required to write a good story -- Story-telling and Writing. There are a lot of good story-tellers who can't write worth a damn and there are a lot more writers who can't tell a story to save their souls.

I have no idea which skill you need the most work on, but I'd bet you need to work on both -- most new authors do.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: Re: Being a Better Writer.

Writing well can be learned, but story-telling seems to be a talent you either have or don't have.

If you've got any spark of the story-telling talent, it can be nurtured and honed through a combination of training, practice and study -- all of which take time.

The thing that most academic opinions fail to take into account is that ther are two skills required to write a good story -- Story-telling and Writing. There are a lot of good story-tellers who can't write worth a damn and there are a lot more writers who can't tell a story to save their souls.

I have no idea which skill you need the most work on, but I'd bet you need to work on both -- most new authors do.

Spot on, old chap.

 

[cantdog]

Weird is always worth giving an ear to.

Good to hear from you again, WildSweetOne, it seems like it's been a while.

It's a big task, Joe. Split it into manageable sub-tasks. Description: how much? When and how? Sex itself: from whose POV? Interior description or exterior? Which is hotter, the actions or the sensations?

Dialog is the trickiest. I think you need to develop an "ear" for that, and I think you get it by more consciously listening to folks speaking. Then you have to edit, because real speech is tentative, reactive, full of ums and ahhs, and reads poorly. Good dialogue can drive a story, though, and poor dialogue sour it. Take all these one at a time and consider them.

Listen to Mabeuse, too. The internal drive of the characters, their motivation, their excuses to themselves-- character and believability go a long way. You need to see why people do whjat they do. Contrived actions, for the plot's sake, ring false.

But all at once, the problem will be unmanageable. Do a story thinking mostly about authentic dialog and where and how to sneak in description, then another experimenting with the best way to do an intro and change the pacing for effect.

Good, sensible, understandable, reproducible rules for the craft do not actually exist. Quality is very very hard to pin down. Zinsser is all right, and King's On Writing is very good. But you have to feel your way, not think your way, in this realm.

cantdog

 

[Guest]

How does one get better at the whole thing? Practice? Time? Study? I've had a number of academic opinions on it (not erotica, mind you) from poets-in-residence and the like, as well as writing instructors. Doesn't seem like there's any rule of thumb better than another.

Most tend to agree its a talent, that you've either "got it" or "you don't".

Admittedly, I'm not comfortable with mediocrity. [/B]

Try writing with your heart instead of your head. You can learn to use proper syntax and punctuation and all the mechanics you want. You can write a thousand stories. Take a year perfecting a story.

But until you can put your heart into every sentence, your reader won't feel it. And if they don't feel it it's not memorable. If it's not memorable it's not good.

Literature is an art. Not a science. It's about emotion. Not logic.

Learn to write what's in your heart.

Just my oppinion, I could be fucked in the head.

 

[herecomestherain]

Joe Wordsworth wrote

Most tend to agree its a talent, that you've either "got it" or "you don't".

For what it's worth I reckon you've got it. I like your work, "Finally" has some very well drawn observations and a real sense of tension early in the piece. My suggestion would be don't rush or gloss over the sex. Stay with it, indulge the reader with enough detail and your feelings about what's going on.

You've had some great suggestions in the replies above, I'd add a couple more general ones. Read widely, about writing, about women, about sex, non fiction like "How to Write A Dirty Story" by Susie Bright, "Women on Top" by Nancy Friday, visit sites like
anniesprinkle.org
Find a mentor, editor, writing colleague/friend who'll push you a bit and be honest and encouraging.

 

[impressive]

Re: Re: Being a Better Writer.

But until you can put your heart into every sentence, your reader won't feel it. And if they don't feel it it's not memorable. If it's not memorable it's not good.

Literature is an art. Not a science. It's about emotion. Not logic.

Learn to write what's in your heart.

Just my oppinion, I could be fucked in the head.

Right! Recently, I had to give a speech (and I HATE public speaking). I wrote a really, really stirring speech that made me cry every time I tried to read it aloud. When I told my friend that I didn't think I'd be able to deliver it without crying, she advised me to read it over and over until I became sensitized to it.

No way! I didn't WANT to become sensitized. I wanted the audience to know that I FELT my words. After all, if I don't feel them, how can I expect anyone else to?

If you really, truly FEEL your words (as opposed to just THINK them), someone else will as well.

{ASIDE: I would like to know how it feels to be "fucked in the head."}

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Being a Better Writer.

{ASIDE: I would like to know how it feels to be "fucked in the head."}

Get an egg, crack it into a hot skillet and stir it up real fast. Now look at it closely. Do you see that?


It's breakfast.

Does that help?

 

[CharleyH]

Re: Re: Being a Better Writer.

Writing well can be learned, but story-telling seems to be a talent you either have or don't have.

If you've got any spark of the story-telling talent, it can be nurtured and honed through a combination of training, practice and study -- all of which take time.

The thing that most academic opinions fail to take into account is that ther are two skills required to write a good story -- Story-telling and Writing. There are a lot of good story-tellers who can't write worth a damn and there are a lot more writers who can't tell a story to save their souls.

I have no idea which skill you need the most work on, but I'd bet you need to work on both -- most new authors do.

Totally agree. I don't believe that any amount of fiction reading will hone in the talent to write - I read predominantly non-fiction, which helps me, but we all have out own inspirations.

What has helped are good editors who can critique both form and content. Learning from my mistakes has always been beneficial.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Re: Being a Better Writer.

I don't believe that any amount of fiction reading will hone in the talent to write - I read predominantly non-fiction, which helps me, but we all have out own inspirations.

I think reading Fiction CAN help you become a better fiction writer. But reading anything that is well written with a critical eye can help learn what works and what doesn't.

The trick is to read something that is written so well you "get drawn into the story" without actually getting drawn into the story -- to learn how a good writer casts a spell over the reader, youcan't allow yourself to get drawn into his spell; you have to look for the tricks and techniques that make up the spell in order to duplicate them.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Knowing that your writing isn’t very good is the first step towards improving it. There are tons of people out there who think their stuff is just fine when it isn’t. That means they lack the critical sense, which is the one thing you really need in order to get better.

That’s the second step in improving: being able to get specific about what the problems are, and I think this is the difference between good writers and duffers: a good writer recognizes the problems. He feels them on a gut level even if he can’t articulate them or quite know what to do anout them. A duffer doesn’t even see them.

I don’t know if people are born with an inate ability to write or not. I think that some of us are born with a desire to write, a kind of consuming need to communicate, and I know that we’re born with varying amounts of that essential critical sense. Some of us respond quite acutely to the way words and sentences are strung together, and others don’t even notice it. Being a good critic doesn’t make you a writer, but you have to have that critical sense to be a good writer. If you don’t, it’s like trying to be a great painter when you’re completely color blind.

I think everyone learns to write by reading. I know that’s how it worked for me. Ever since I was a kid I could immerse myself in some style of writing and emerge pretty much able to imitate the style. It just seemed like writing was something I understood without trying. To this day, if I want to write poetry, I immerse myself in poetry for a few days, and I just start thinking in poetry. It might not be great poetry, but it’s like a switch is thrown and I shift mental gears. I’ve always had that ability.

So you have to read good authors, but you have to read your own stuff too. No one writes flawless prose the first time through, and for me at least, editing and revising is easily 50% of writing. This is where your critical sense comes in, and I think this is where you separate the writers from the hacks. A writer can obsess over a single word or the rhythm of a sentence whereas it reads just fine to a duffer.

The other thing is, if you ever get to the point where you’re entirely satisfied with what you’ve written, then you’ve stopped developing. Once your ability to write matches your sense of what’s good, you’ve reached the limit of what you can do.

---dr.M.

P.S. It just occurred to me that this post is a perfect case in point. I wrote this in Word, and I went back and revised it maybe 3-4 times to get it to read better. It's not great prose, but still, the very idea of posting something with clunky sentences or wrong words is just very offensive to me, so I'm an overly critical dick when it comes to writing. Whatever quality there is in anything I've written, I think it comes from this overly-dickishness.

 

[oggbashan]

You never stop...

..learning, nor worrying that your stories aren't good enough.

The next one will be the best one - until you've written it - then it is the next one and so on.

A creative writing class and the manuals are useful aids but experimenting and writing more and more is the best way to improve.

Don't be afraid to write something different and fail.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

You never stop...

****! Double post

Og

 

[CharleyH]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Being a Better Writer.

I think reading Fiction CAN help you become a better fiction writer. But reading anything that is well written with a critical eye can help learn what works and what doesn't.

The trick is to read something that is written so well you "get drawn into the story" without actually getting drawn into the story -- to learn how a good writer casts a spell over the reader, youcan't allow yourself to get drawn into his spell; you have to look for the tricks and techniques that make up the spell in order to duplicate them.

Totally agree with your former statement, but it was too early in the morning to seperate this fact from the rest of my sentiment, sorry for implying something different, it was not intentional.

Just as reading copious news articles does not a journalist make, watching reel after reel of dance moves does not a dancer make and reading tons of fiction does not an author make. We have influences - that's all I meant. Without practice - blah.

P.S. Joe, your experience (another thread) about your reaction to the kids you saw is an interesting starting point for a story, erotic or otherwise.

 

[fogbank]

Idea, craft, structure, form.

I'd seperate writing into four distinct areas: ideas, craft, structure, form.

Idea is a pretty obvious area: get better at coming up with ideas. To do this, keep a notebook with you at all times and constantly write down anything remotely interesting that comes into your head. Make mind-maps. Try to see the world from outside your own perspective, do exercises to explore the minds of all your characters, even those that seem secondary or insignificant. Draw maps of buildings or towns in your story. Make your worlds as complete as possible, even if you don't plan on telling all of those details in your story. Consume as much media as possible--not only novels and books, but newspapers, movies, television, comic-books... I love a good string of trailers at a film because it's just a punchy list of ideas, without really exploring any of them.

Craft is a lot more difficult and less fun, usually. For writers, craft means learning language, as intricately as possible. Don't be content to simply learn grammar. Learn the history of your language, learn different types of sentences, make yourself adapt at pointing out misplaced modifiers or subjunctive mood. Do you need to learn all of this? No. Will it make you a better writer? Definitely. Don't be worried that learning these rules will stifle your writing; you still have full freedom to break these rules, but it really helps to understand what rules you're breaking.

Structure is a fun one. I think it's what someone else on this thread was describing as storytelling. Understand how one idea flows into the next, understand how to control the pacing of a story using subtle punctuation, understand the effects of using direct quotations vs. indirect references. The best practice for this is to write, and rewrite. I also find composing things outloud works well. Put the pencil and paper away, and just dictate a short paragraph. Listen to yourself, and refine the telling of it for flow. Suprisingly, words that sound good when spoken often read well, too. I think this is where a lot of writers really fail, though. How many times have you read a story and thought that the idea was good, the language was good, but it just didn't 'click'? That's structure.

Form is the way the entire piece of writing functions. This is where you start to play around with flashbacks, multiple perspectives, different tenses, even formatting. Try writing the same passage in different tenses, to understand how they work. Then have different characters describe the events that took place. As with the 'idea' stage, explore a wide range of media types, but this time, ignore the ideas and pay attention to the form of each--read up on each and find out the rules behind it. For example, the great rule of newspaper journalism: lead, bridge, quote. Almost all newspaper articles start with this formula. Yet when I read fictional newspaper articles that writers have put in their novels, they inevitably break these rules. Understanding different forms will allow you do to amazing feats in your writing, especially in longer works.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Turn something you have written over to Dr. M, Hiddenself or the SDC. Nothing you do to improve yourself will ever top taking a beating from someone you know has the requisite skills and isn't afraid to hurt your feelings with honest, brutal critique.

We learn significantly more from our failures than we do from our successess. For all of the threads that don't apply to writing here, this forum is perhaps the best tool you will ever find for improvement. Part encouragement and praise, but part criticism and constructive instruction on where you can improve.

The only caveat is that you have to have sufficently thick skin to take it and be sufficently open minded to absorb it. Also helps to be humble enough to ask for help.

Experience isn't going to do you any good, if you continue to make the same basic mistakes. To grow from tale to tale, you have to assimilate all of the praise with all of the criticism, spin it all down to get to the basics and use those as a blue print for areas you intend to work on in your next piece.

I'm a good storyteller. I'm not a good writer yet. With thirty odd stories posted here, I am still not up to speed on a lot of basic writing techniques. My ability to tell a story masks a lot of my faults as a writer. Harold is spot on when he says there are really two skills involved. To be really good, you have to hone them both.

Reading the stories here probably won't help a lot, as the quality varries wildly, but reading stories to find authors who have the skills you feel you are missing can help tremendously. I have never known anyone here to be less than giving of themselves when I have questions, need critique or even help with a story.

You can become a better writer. Your limits are bounded only by your imagination, dedication and the amount of time you are willing to invest to improve.

-Colly

 

[Weird Harold]

Idea, craft, structure, form.

I'd seperate writing into four distinct areas: ideas, craft, structure, form.
...
Structure is a fun one. I think it's what someone else on this thread was describing as storytelling. Understand how one idea flows into the next, understand how to control the pacing of a story using subtle punctuation, understand the effects of using direct quotations vs. indirect references. The best practice for this is to write, and rewrite.
...

All very good advice, Foggy, but your description of "structure" isn't what I meant by story-telling. It's part of it, or related to it, but it's not quite synonymous with it.

"Story-Telling" to me is one of those "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" things like Art, Porn, Obscenity, etc. It's the difference between belly laughs and chuckles when telling a joke, or the difference between rapt attention and polite yawns when telling about your summer vaction.

Your version of structure is a good explantion of what to look for, but it takes a "story-teller" to put it all together in a way that turns "merely good" into "Great."

I think Dr_M says it best: "a good writer recognizes the problems. He feels them on a gut level even if he can’t articulate them or quite know what to do about them. A duffer doesn’t even see them." He calls it a "good writer" where I would say a "story-teller," but the idea is the same.