BDSM or not?

[KillerMuffin]

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=11172

I thought not, but after the recent discussion, I now admit that this is probably BDSM, depending on your point of view. Is it? Why do you think yes or no?

 

[artful]

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=11172

I thought not, but after the recent discussion, I now admit that this is probably BDSM, depending on your point of view. Is it? Why do you think yes or no?

NOT!!! It is certainly a case of kidnap, rape and torture, but it is not BDSM. How could you POSSIBLY be confused on the issue ? This thread is ONLY a *bait* thread.
(ONLY my opinion of course!)

 

[morninggirl5]

It's Nonconsent.

There are quite a few stories labeled BDSM here that should really be placed in the Nonconsent category.

 

[WriterDom]

Most definitely bdsm. There were no whips or chains.

 

[cellis]

My vote is not!

 

[KillerMuffin]

I thought I had a handle on this thing, but apparently I don't. I am trying to get it figured out again. Snideness, sarcasm, and dorkiness isn't going to get me unconfused here, it's only going to get me confused and angry. Rather than get myself enlightened, I'll be full of misinformation and more than happy to spread it about as gospel.

Thank you for those who answered. I see elements of BDSM in it. It's got the whips and chains, of course. It's got the dom and submissive. It's got a woman enjoying what's done to her. It's one of those stories that I had thought wasn't BDSM until the recent discussions and then I became not so sure.

I'm still confused and I will be for a while.



Thanks for your help, artful, you're a real pal. Remind me to never pay attention to you again because you have nothing to add but ridiculous posturing. I do my trolling on the GB, if you'd like to start a fight with me, please do so there. Have a nice day.

 

[artful]

KM

I thought I had a handle on this thing, but apparently I don't. I am trying to get it figured out again. Snideness, sarcasm, and dorkiness isn't going to get me unconfused here, it's only going to get me confused and angry. Rather than get myself enlightened, I'll be full of misinformation and more than happy to spread it about as gospel.

Thank you for those who answered. I see elements of BDSM in it. It's got the whips and chains, of course. It's got the dom and submissive. It's got a woman enjoying what's done to her. It's one of those stories that I had thought wasn't BDSM until the recent discussions and then I became not so sure.

I'm still confused and I will be for a while.



Thanks for your help, artful, you're a real pal. Remind me to never pay attention to you again because you have nothing to add but ridiculous posturing. I do my trolling on the GB, if you'd like to start a fight with me, please do so there. Have a nice day.

I apologise for offending you. I truly thought it was a *bait* thread. I am not trying to pick a fight with you,...or anyone else for that matter.
I think there were more people than I who thought the same thing. My sincerest apologies to you.

 

[cymbidia]

I see elements of BDSM in it. It's got the whips and chains, of course. It's got the dom and submissive. It's got a woman enjoying what's done to her. It's one of those stories that I had thought wasn't BDSM until the recent discussions and then I became not so sure.

I'm still confused and I will be for a while.

To my mind, Muff, though it's definitely a skillfully wrought story by someone who understands the nuances of power relationships, it's clearly nonconsensual because the protagonist, passive though she is, did not ever given her consent to any of the things done to her, except, possibly, the bit of foot sex at the very end. In the rest of this story, however, she's dazed and confused, and actively tries to avoid whatever the rest are doing to her, including digital penetration by the sheriff.

Nonconsensual, all the way.

Later chapters might be different, if she grows to want this kind of life and becomes an active participant in her own debauchery, but in this bit of the story, that simply was not the case.

 

[artful]

A question

Nonconsensual, all the way.

Later chapters might be different, if she grows to want this kind of life and becomes an active participant in her own debauchery, but in this bit of the story, that simply was not the case.

Are you saying that someone kidnapped, who CLEARLY in the beginning did not consent, but LATER, through many possible variations, came to desire BDSM activities, could be a simple EPISODE of how she came into BDSM ? (just asking)

 

[cymbidia]

Artful, i see this story as just entertainment.

If this were reality then i would be aghast and on the phone with the authorities. The line between fantasy and reality lies along fully informed consensual lines.

In my life, in recent times, there has been an occasion when i thought someone i knew of was consenting to being a participant in a poly relationship of a D/s nature - but in reality, that person honestly did not understand what she was consenting to, and so, was confused and scared and completely unable to make an informed choice in the matter. In essence, her decision to say "yes, go ahead and do that" to her partner was born of ignorance about what she was saying yes to, and fear that he would sneak around and do it if she didn't agree.

That is not a consensual relationship.

In a like manner, though fictional (i hope), the protagonist in this story was not capable of consenting to her enslavement.

In a fictional sense, for the purposes of entertainment, yes, someone could be nonconsensually kidnapped and later come to crave and enjoy the sensations inherent in her slavery. Later, perhaps, she could tell the story as a part of an explanation of how she got to be where she was.

But that's the stuff of fiction.
Fiction is not reality.

Kidnapping is a crime, a nonconsensual practice, and so it is not within the realm of anyone's definition of SSC BSM, is it?

 

[DRxBlue]

i'm kinda new at this

BDSM is something i'd know nothing about if it hadn't been for you, KM. Your short treatise on the subject, followed by a couple of encounters with Risia's prodigious powers of intellect led me to this forum.

i got to like it here very quickly and i've done heaps of homework. From what i've learned, basically all the sources agree that BDSM as it exists today should be built on the SSC model.

That's the only way that it can be a lifestyle and not just kinky play, slavery, torture or abuse.

This story seems to be clearly a kidnapping, rather well told, and (damn me) i'd like to know what happens next.

Since NonConsent is an available category, that would be the place to put it. The rules seem to blur a bit in the Novels and Novellas category. Depending on the length the author has planned, that might be good too.

But i think it clearly violates the basis of what BDSM purports to stand for.

Blue

 

[artful]

Artful, i see this story as just entertainment.

If this were reality then i would be aghast and on the phone with the authorities. The line between fantasy and reality lies along fully informed consensual lines.

In my life, in recent times, there has been an occasion when i thought someone i knew of was consenting to being a participant in a poly relationship of a D/s nature - but in reality, that person honestly did not understand what she was consenting to, and so, was confused and scared and completely unable to make an informed choice in the matter. In essence, her decision to say "yes, go ahead and do that" to her partner was born of ignorance about what she was saying yes to, and fear that he would sneak around and do it if she didn't agree.

That is not a consensual relationship.

In a like manner, though fictional (i hope), the protagonist in this story was not capable of consenting to her enslavement.

In a fictional sense, for the purposes of entertainment, yes, someone could be nonconsensually kidnapped and later come to crave and enjoy the sensations inherent in her slavery. Later, perhaps, she could tell the story as a part of an explanation of how she got to be where she was.

But that's the stuff of fiction.
Fiction is not reality.

Kidnapping is a crime, a nonconsensual practice, and so it is not within the realm of anyone's definition of SSC BSM, is it?

Quite right,...and I agree with you 100%. That's why I thought this was a *bait* thread in the first place.

 

[cymbidia]

Honestly, Artful, Muff rarely posts anything at all in this forum just to be provocative.

We all have our off moments, of course, ( - some of us more recently than others) but or the most part, Muff's contributions in this place have been considered and non-inflammatory. She has a sincere outsider's interest in understanding our motivations and needs.

 

[WillowPuss]

Most of what I was going to say has already been said.

I would not class that story as BDSM.
It has BDSM overtones (or should that be undertones?) but Shawn is a non-consenting participant in most of the tale.

 

[artful]

Honestly, Artful, Muff rarely posts anything at all in this forum just to be provocative.

We all have our off moments, of course, ( - some of us more recently than others) but or the most part, Muff's contributions in this place have been considered and non-inflammatory. She has a sincere outsider's interest in understanding our motivations and needs.

It WAS my mistake,...I hope she accepts my apology.

 

[Never]

First off, I agree that the story should be in non-consent.
Thing is, as much as I love hopping on bandwagons, I'm a might confused about people's answers.

This story was replete with D/s and S&M.
Think of it this way, if a gay man goes out and rapes another man, it's still homosexuality, isn't it? If a man rapes a woman, it is still heterosexuality, isn't it?

People on this forum constantly say that one's dominance/submission/sadism/masochism/etc. is inborn. That means it's still functioning whether a person wins the noble prize, runs a marathon, or rapes another person. This story is about BDSM even if the non-consent overrides that fact when it comes to placing it in a category or the morality of the actions.

 

[Sandia]

Never, hon, if a gay man rapes another man, it's still rape, even if he's gay.

I think they're just trying to say they don't want rape or nonconsent confused with BDSM.

 

[MsWorthy]

If this were reality then i would be aghast and on the phone with the authorities. The line between fantasy and reality lies along fully informed consensual lines...

But that's the stuff of fiction.
Fiction is not reality....

Kidnapping is a crime, a nonconsensual practice, and so it is not within the realm of anyone's definition of SSC BSM, is it?

In my opinion, these are the most important words spoken in this discussion. Many women have rape FANTASIES, but we all know that rape fantasies are far from what rape is actually about. Just as bdsm non-consent FANTASIES are not what bdsm is actually about.

No woman wants to be raped, just as no woman (or man) wants to be forced into any type of bdsm interaction - mental, emotional, or physical (if you doubt that, ask yourself if you would enjoy being humiliated by your boss in front of your co-workers or slapped on the street by a stranger).

FANTASY is a wonderful thing. It is exciting and can get our juices and imagination flowing, which can lead to great sex, but fantasy is NOT REAL. Fantasies about nonconsensual bdsm are fun because we control the players and the play. It may seem to be force (or non consent), because in our minds, we can make it extreme and still pleasurable, but remember the fantasizer is in control in the fantasy.

Think of it this way, if a gay man goes out and rapes another man, it's still homosexuality, isn't it? If a man rapes a woman, it is still heterosexuality, isn't it?

Never, I mean no personal insult to you, but this statement sends a dangerous message. RAPE is not about sex or sexuality. It is a crime and horribly damaging no matter the gender or sexual orientation of the offender.

 

[MsWorthy]

this may "go without saying" but...

Because so many "bdsmers" are excited by the fantasy of non-consent, the line between force and "play" force (the illusion of force) can easily become blurred in someone's mind.

I think the line between force and "play" force is distinctively mental and emotional.

I know of a woman who had strong fantasies of kidnapping and rape. She was in a bdsm relationship and told her domme of her fantasy and her wish to have it actually happen in reality.

~does she really want to be kidnapped and raped? If so, one would think she would have made herself vulnerable in a dangerous area of town or mentioned to seedy-looking strangers that she thinks being raped and kidnapped would be exciting.~

As she arrived home from work late one night, she was forced from her car, blindfolded, gagged, bound at the ankles and wrists with duct tape, and thrown into the trunk of a car.

~Did this excite her?~

She was terrified and fought her bindings fiercely. When the car stopped she was pulled roughly from the trunk and carried into an apartment. She fought; trying to kick, scream, and gouge at her kidnappers eyes.

~Is this bdsm?~

As she fought she managed to land a blow, and heard one of her kidnappers swear. She recognized the voice. It was a friend of her domme's. She realized at that instant that this was her birthday gift from her mistress - her much desired FANTASY of rape and kidnapping.

She continued to struggle and fight as though she didn't know what was happening, but immediately she was filled with sexual pleasure. She no longer went for her kidnappers eyes.

~now is it bdsm?~

She is still physically fighting and being forced physically to comply, but it has ceased to be force because mentally and emotionally she has consented, freely. Her physical resistance will still be strong but not intended to cause serious damage.

This is the line that is difficult to see when you aren't the one in the situation and the one which can be so confusing to someone new to bdsm.

Had these kidnappers been strangers to this woman, or had she known them but did not want this interaction with them, but LATER come to enjoy what was being done to her - I would call this a crime and not bdsm.

Why?

Because in that state of mind, having been victimized and in a situation where she had no choice but to fight and perhaps be killed or give in and live, her consent is not freely given. It is consent given when she had little other choice. She is not fighting physically but mentally and emotionally she has been manipulated, frightened, and tortured. In this state she can not give consent.

The line between bdsm and abuse is the ability to freely give or refuse to give - mental and emotional consent. It is the physical aspect that is confusing and may not tell the entire story.

I thought I had a handle on this thing, but apparently I don't. I am trying to get it figured out again.

I'm still confused and I will be for a while.

Killermuffin, I hope I did not confuse the issue for you more. I really would like to help.

 

[cymbidia]

The line between bdsm and abuse is the ability to freely give or refuse to give - mental and emotional consent. It is the physical aspect that is confusing and may not tell the entire story.

These words are true.

Additionally, the ability to freely give or to refuse to give varies from day-to-day, even between two who are emotionally bonded and know each other well.

It is why we have stop words.
It is why we talk so much with our partners.
It is why we fill ot play checklists.
It is why we explore the edges, those places of fuzziness between too much and oh gods more more more.

Sometimes we wander into abuse, either giving or recieving, and we never see it coming. I've been there. So have many of us. (Though we've discussed this subject in detail on this board at other times, the newer members of our community haven't added thir voices to the sum total of our knowledge around the subject and if they have stories and info for us in this matter, i invite them to speak out.)

In truth, most of us who push into previously uncharted territory in a BDSM D/s sexuality/lifestyle/way of relating to and with our partner(s) encounter the scary edge of "is this abuse or hard use?" on occasion. It just happens.

We simply to need to remember that fantasy is all well and good but reality is where we live. We have to remember that we owe ourselves and our partner(s) truth and saneness when enaging in the kinds of things we do with each other. And we have to try to help those who may not be able to see the difference between use and abuse as clearly as do we.

Otherwise, i say, let the party continue! Bring on those rape fantasies, those kidnap fantasies! Let me struggle and scream against your strength, your bonds, your roughness. Oh yeh baby! Let's do it!

 

[Never]

Sandia:
" Never, hon, if a gay man rapes another man, it's still rape, even if he's gay."
Oh please, do NOT twist my words around that way. I was in no way implying that if a man rapes another man it's not rape and you know this.

MsWorthy:
"Never, I mean no personal insult to you, but this statement sends a dangerous message. RAPE is not about sex or sexuality. It is a crime and horribly damaging no matter the gender or sexual orientation of the offender."
No, rape is not about sex, but it is sex. I'm sending no dangerous message, simply one that doesn't feel good. The story contains BDSM, the fact that it's rape does not lessen that fact.

 

[artful]

Rape

Whether it be sexual or of any other form, denotes
SOMETHING taken by FORCE. Non-consentual! Possibly against their will. However it is STILL non- consentual,...and that being the case, can never be construed as BDSM.

I agree with MsWorthy's assessment that even though there may be an outward physical resistance, it is the MENTAL aspect which decides
the issue.

Clearly the beginning of MsWorthy's story denotes
a PLANNED experience by the Dom/me, to satisfy the sexual fantasy of the sub. As stated,...the sub had no idea of the planned event, thus stated, there was no way in which the sub COULD have consented.

Later, through gathering certain information through her senses, the sub DID participate willingly of her OWN free will. At some point, she
CONSENTED.

As with so many events, truly it IS the mental part which makes the differece. All that aside, whether or not BDSM aspects, or VANILLA only sex
was involved, is immaterial. Whether or not the sub enjoyed it, is immaterial to the question.

It is clear cut the act was kidnapping,(rape=being
taken by force), THAT being the case, I would offer that BDSM was never involved, even if the sub enjoyed it. My reasoning is, "She was offered
no choice." Pleasure was FORCED upon her.
(jmho)

 

[KillerMuffin]

Apology accepted, artful. Thank you. I appreciate that.

I think I should define my interest in BDSM.

I'm not a BDSMer, I'm not a sociologist with a microscope either. I'm a writer and a lot of what I write is a power struggle, pure and simple, between the protagonist and him/herself and/or the protagonist and antagonist. It's very important to me do delineate what is BDSM in my stories because most of what I write is erotica. Some of my D/s stories are mainstreamed rather than BDSM simply because the leather isn't in evidence, but they're still BDSM.

Every relationship has D/s in it. There's always the one with more power and the one without. The ways people react to this power balance is what--I think--defines BDSM and every other kind of relationship.

It like the one thing I have yet to understand, what does the Dom get out of it? The power rush? But does s/he truly have the power? Um... let's not go there.

Anyway, my writing takes on one of two stances. It's about the internal relationship in the protagonist (most of what's posted here). My longer work tends to be strongly D/s. A dom and sub locked in some sort of conflict they have to resolve. That's an apt description for everything over 15,000 words that I've ever written.

Now, I could write it without knowing a lot about BDSM, power struggles are easy to write about, actually. But to write them well, you need to understand how power exchanges work, how doms and subs sort themselves out, how it all goes together to make a healthy relationship. And the best place to get this information currently is the BDSM community who spends an inordinate amount of time acknowledging the existence of the power exchange whereas no one else outside of marital therapists ever bothers to give it much thought, let alone analysis and intelligent reasoning.

And that's why I'm here.

This discussion is very helpful. I'm very glad to see a discussion rather than a fight. Thank you.

 

[artful]

Thank you KM

Apology accepted, artful. Thank you. I appreciate that.

 

[Little Girl]

I think this story goes against the basic rules here of sane, safe and most importantly CONSENSUAL I don't think this is BDSM, I think it is non-consent at no point in this story do I see anything saying she consented.