BDSM: Inclusion or Exclusion, Why?

[MsWorthy]

Is/Should the bdsm community be inclusive or exclusive, and why do you take that position?

Where is the line that separates bdsm from 'nilla? Is it sexual practices? Must one engage in some sort of b/d or s/m to be included? Does "just" mental bondage count?

Is it the power exchange that determines whether one is a bdsmer or not? What about those who play "hard" (edgy) or just like spankings, but do not give up any personal power (they have written the script and are only receiving what they asked for), are they bdsmers?

Should there be a universal line drawn that determines who is and who is not "into" bdsm?

Is this just a way to exclude those who don't think like "we" do or play as hard as "we" do so that we can maintain our position as the "elite?"

~knows that Artful thinks this is too many questions, but is sure he will respond anyway...lol~

 

[Lancecastor]

I think of this....

....as a Sociology question as much as a BDSM question.

I've been involved in organized groups of one sort or another most of my life.

Most groups are tribal in nature and identify themselves to others with some kind of markings or other unique identifying and/or totemistic symbols/behavior....crosses, headgear, garb, handshakes, mottos.....all with a view to being identifiable for what they practise, preach or believe, versus others.

By its' very nature, such practises are "exclusive" in the sense that they mark a territory that is "theirs".

Some groups, by their mandate, are more exclusive than others.....be they religious, social, activity or interest-based.

Some are socially sanctioned and seek to expand their beliefs/practises/membership, others seek to practise their beliefs anonymously or defensively due to marginalization of various kinds.

I think BDSM could generally be labelled as a marginalized and therefore defensive set of practises.

However.....at various and in particular recent times, there have been some limited expansions and acceptances of some BDSM practises that I believe are challenging the mix...creating change in perceptions, both within and without this group.

To some degree this has been going on since the Kinsey Report, The Joy of Sex, etc entered mainstream thinking, discussion, practise and acceptance with the expansion of the sexual revolution and gender issues generally.

As a result of these shifts, expansions....ch-ch-ch-changes....there is some confusion, re-evaluation, debate....and a firming of of lines of definition in some areas, a loosening of the lines in others.

Just as you don't need to be limp-wristed, or wear tight leather, big mustaches and snug white tanks to be identified as a gay male anymore...due to mainstream acceptance expansion....a collar on the street or using the word Master, etc doesn't create shunning in as many places anymore.

And, as in any time of change, some will resist change and wish...or fight for....keeping things "the way they used to be before safe words and weekend do-me subs came along." (for example)

So...what is BDSM? Where is the line?

There it is!

No....it's over here!

Is not! It's there, where it belongs!

One thing is certain....it's getting bigger and it's changing.

Er, two things are certain.....

Cheers;
Lance "Give Kink A Chance" Castor

 

[Never]

If you say you're into BDSM, you are.
If you say you're vanilla, you are.

Last time I checked people decided what they were, 'community' be damned.

 

[Desdemona]

Sometimes the community is inclusive and sometimes exclusive.

I believe we're talking about a moving, ever changing target. Each person defines his or her own sexual identity and attempts to join the group or tribe that best fits that identity. If its a good fit, the community will ultimately accept the new member. It may take some time and effort to find the right fit and gain entre' into the group depending on a wide variety of factors.

 

[Lancecastor]

PS

My personal view is that all communities should be inclusive, open and welcoming.

The more "secrets" there are in a group, the more isolated it becomes.

If you believe in something, you should have the conviction to stand up and say so.

Cheers;
Lance "My name is Lance and I am a freak." Castor

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: PS

"My name is Lance and I am a freak."

Nice to meet you, Lance. Oh, this isn't AA is it?

~MsW who is brain dead from answering Lance's posts~

 

[monster666]

So if I say I am a Martian, then I must be.

If you say you're into BDSM, you are.
If you say you're vanilla, you are.

Last time I checked people decided what they were, 'community' be damned.

 

[Never]

monster666:
"So if I say I am a Martian, then I must be."

No, your place of birth is a fact; it can be proven or disproven. Your sexuality is your opinion.
You can no more tell someone that they are or aren't vanilla then you can tell them their favorite hair color, what type of music they like, or if their nose itches at the moment.

 

[MsWorthy]

So if I say I am a Martian, then I must be.

Monster, I would really be interested in your opinion on the topic.

 

[monster666]

I see. I might use the word choice instead of opinion, but your point is taken - almost. I think our choices and actions together are often defined and labeled according to various standards. It's a double-edged sword, one that provides the protection of company in some cases, and one that provides a stereotype to bash in others. In the end, we just are what we are.

monster666:
"So if I say I am a Martian, then I must be."

No, your place of birth is a fact; it can be proven or disproven. Your sexuality is your opinion.
You can no more tell someone that they are or aren't vanilla then you can tell them their favorite hair color, what type of music they like, or if their nose itches at the moment.

 

[WriterDom]

Should the bdsm community be inclusive?

What do you mean by the bdsm community? I've found bdsm organizations to be very inclusive and welcoming to anyone wanting to join. Just pay your dues and follow a few rules like any other group.

If I nilla couple does bondage 4 times a year, to me, they are nillas dabbling in bdsm. If they want to call themselves Bdsmers, I'm not going to challenge it. To me it's just a description of what we do. Not some elitist title. That's why I never saw vanilla as an insult. It's just a description of what they are not.

 

[artful]

Re: I think of this....

....as a Sociology question as much as a BDSM question.

I've been involved in organized groups of one sort or another most of my life.

Most groups are tribal in nature and identify themselves to others with some kind of markings or other unique identifying and/or totemistic symbols/behavior....crosses, headgear, garb, handshakes, mottos.....all with a view to being identifiable for what they practise, preach or believe, versus others.

By its' very nature, such practises are "exclusive" in the sense that they mark a territory that is "theirs".

Some groups, by their mandate, are more exclusive than others.....be they religious, social, activity or interest-based.

Some are socially sanctioned and seek to expand their beliefs/practises/membership, others seek to practise their beliefs anonymously or defensively due to marginalization of various kinds.

I think BDSM could generally be labelled as a marginalized and therefore defensive set of practises.

However.....at various and in particular recent times, there have been some limited expansions and acceptances of some BDSM practises that I believe are challenging the mix...creating change in perceptions, both within and without this group.

To some degree this has been going on since the Kinsey Report, The Joy of Sex, etc entered mainstream thinking, discussion, practise and acceptance with the expansion of the sexual revolution and gender issues generally.

As a result of these shifts, expansions....ch-ch-ch-changes....there is some confusion, re-evaluation, debate....and a firming of of lines of definition in some areas, a loosening of the lines in others.

Just as you don't need to be limp-wristed, or wear tight leather, big mustaches and snug white tanks to be identified as a gay male anymore...due to mainstream acceptance expansion....a collar on the street or using the word Master, etc doesn't create shunning in as many places anymore.

And, as in any time of change, some will resist change and wish...or fight for....keeping things "the way they used to be before safe words and weekend do-me subs came along." (for example)

So...what is BDSM? Where is the line?

There it is!

No....it's over here!

Is not! It's there, where it belongs!

One thing is certain....it's getting bigger and it's changing.

Er, two things are certain.....

Cheers;
Lance "Give Kink A Chance" Castor

A powerful post which I agree with 100% Lance. I would only add one more thing,..."It is MOSTLY in the mind set, or *The eye of the beholder*, an expressed opinion."

(jmho)

P.S.~I really love it when you and MsW exchange ideas and opinions.(saves me from SO much typing)

P.P.S.~MsW,...you know me TOO well,...I would post as UNREGISTERED,...but you would be able to identify my post anyway.~sigh~

 

[MsWorthy]

Should the bdsm community be inclusive?

What do you mean by the bdsm community? I've found bdsm organizations to be very inclusive and welcoming to anyone wanting to join. Just pay your dues and follow a few rules like any other group.

By inclusive I meant are you are welcomed as one of "us" as opposed to "allowed" to come in because you paid your fee (aside from the need to prove yourself as far as safety goes).

By community I meant any corner that bdsmers claim as their own: munches, fetish clubs, BB, chat, etc.

If I nilla couple does bondage 4 times a year, to me, they are nillas dabbling in bdsm. If they want to call themselves Bdsmers, I'm not going to challenge it. To me it's just a description of what we do. Not some elitist title. That's why I never saw vanilla as an insult. It's just a description of what they are not.

Thank you for your input, WriterDom *smiles*

 

[Never]

monster666:
"I see. I might use the word choice instead of opinion, but your point is taken - almost. I think our choices and actions together are often defined and labeled according to various standards. It's a double-edged sword, one that provides the protection of company in some cases, and one that provides a stereotype to bash in others. In the end, we just are what we are."

I thought about using the word choice but several people have told me that their sadism/dominance/masochism/submissiveness is not a choice. I don't want to use a word that would cause offense.

The BDSM community is going through a period of self-identification, it's only natural to reach for handy labels and definitions but in the end it's self-limiting. I think the community should be there to serve the individual, not pass judgment or proscribe behavior. For instance, I've heard complaint from several subs that when they speak up they're accused of not being truly submissive.

I agree with you: in the end, we

 

[Ebonyfire]

Labels

I look at it this way. I do not care about what labels are presented. I do what I do cause I want to and I can find others who feel the way I do. I only need one or two.

Society, be damned!

Community be damned!

Ebony

 

[artful]

Re: Labels

I look at it this way. I do not care about what labels are presented. I do what I do cause I want to and I can find others who feel the way I do. I only need one or two.

Society, be damned!

Community be damned!

Ebony

EB,...I respect your honesty,...and your opinion,...but I just gotta say,...I don't agree with you on this one.

I want to SHARE myself, my ideas, my opinions,...
with a group of like minded folks. I could never go back to being a loner. I have BEEN there,... further than MOST modern day man(or woman).

I once seceded from SOCIETY for a period of years. That's not a cup of tea I would ever want another taste of. Marvelous sex,...but it was NOT good enough to displace all my needs.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Labels

EB,...I respect your honesty,...and your opinion,...but I just gotta say,...I don't agree with you on this one.

I want to SHARE myself, my ideas, my opinions,...
with a group of like minded folks. I could never go back to being a loner. I have BEEN there,... further than MOST modern day man(or woman).

I once seceded from SOCIETY for a period of years. That's not a cup of tea I would ever want another taste of. Marvelous sex,...but it was NOT good enough to displace all my needs.

I was stating my view. I did not post my opinion about my life for agreement purposes. I do not live my life by committee.

Disagree all you like. It makes no difference to me. Why disagree with how I said I live MY life? Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Labels

I was stating my view. I did not post my opinion about my life for agreement purposes. I do not live my life by committee.

Disagree all you like. It makes no difference to me. Why disagree with how I said I live MY life? Eb

PS - I find that people are only likeminded when they agree with you. YMMV. I survive cause I am a loner.

 

[Sandia]

I've never been too fond of communities myself. Too often I find them limiting and coercive. That doesn't mean I don't feel the pull of them; that I haven't been lulled by the desire to belong. I do, and I have.

I'm not sure how many people are nilla. I'm not sure what nilla is. There's lots of kinks that are not BDSM. And there's lots of folks who are into BDSM who are not part of any community.

I guess I think discussing who is who or what is what can be interesting... or hurtful... depending on how it's done... but in the end, it doesn't matter much. Exclusivity makes your world a smaller place; diversity - or the acceptance thereof - makes you strong.

 

[Rick DeVille]

Labels bore me

 

[RisiaSkye]

I avoid most interaction with even the few RL BDSM groups that I (technically) belong to, because I've found them exclusionary in really stupid ways.

Switches are not, generally speaking, viewed very favorably or treated very well within BDSM groups that I've had the chance to observe or hear about from others. Similarly, bisexuals are not exactly embraced with open arms by the "gay community." These are spaces where one fails to conform to the pre-established categories marked "D/s" and "queer" in ways that people wish--in the ways that reflect the identities of the dominant members of a sub-cultural group.

I got a little reminder of this just today. Tonight, I went to a munch held by a self-identified leather dyke group. I went with a friend and maybe-soon play partner. Or, I should say, I almost went. I was treated with sufficient disrespect and intolerance that I left. I suppose some there felt that my non-dykeness was disrespectful of them. So it goes, so it goes.

Communities exist wherever we make them. They don't have to be exclusionary, except that we make them so.

But, I often find that at the end of the day, I prefer my own company to the difficulties of making a place for myself in a sea of labels and politics.

 

[MsWorthy]

Risia, I am sorry to hear of that happening to you. Had they taken the time to get to know you, I am sure it wouldn't have happened.

I have seen exclusion/freeze out in action and it isn't pretty. Gays exclude bi(s); butch/femme couples freeze out butch/butch and femme/femme; butches exclude andro(s), dom/mes exclude switches (I don't think submissives do this nearly as much with switches as dominants do).

I believe there are times/circumstances when this need for "_____ only" (fill in the blank with any group) space is appropriate, but often the exclusion of other variations of "those like us" is precipitated by fear of comparison and (perceived) loss of identity when similarities are found.

People don't want to be seen as "brown" (a combination or mixture of many desires/talents/traits), they want to be black or white or purple or green (a sharp, distinct, clearly-defined being). They want to stand out in a crowd, and although this is understandable (because they are now more easily recognized), people seem to forget that it is the adaptable one who succeeds in life and recovers more easily from a setback, because these people have many ways of defining themselves and do not feel "lost" when one avenue is blocked.

I am not suggesting that everyone be bisexual, or androgynous, or even that they should switch. We must be who we are and work with what we have. I am suggesting, however, that we open our eyes to the value of more flexible/fluid people and not lose all that they can share with us and our group by excluding them.

 

[cymbidia]

I was treated with sufficient disrespect and intolerance that I left.

I am so sorry, R. I know you went with an open mind and am sorry you were greeted with hostility and suspicion.

 

[petrel]

I got a little reminder of this just today. Tonight, I went to a munch held by a self-identified leather dyke group. I went with a friend and maybe-soon play partner. Or, I should say, I almost went. I was treated with sufficient disrespect and intolerance that I left. I suppose some there felt that my non-dykeness was disrespectful of them. So it goes, so it goes.

This happened to me a lot with my previous partner (female) because I was identified as Bi and also because she was very feminine in appearance we were treated as 'not proper' dykes. I didn't mind that after all who gave a shite about what labels they wanted to use - it was the cold shouldering we both got I found hard. Especially for her - I can stand up for myself and I don't have an issue with walking into a room and starting talking (you'd never guess would you) however my girlfriend was extremely shy and pretty quickly we stopped going out publicly as a couple.

Now re the question of BDSMer's I now think that a BDSMer is someone who gets aroused by the headspace, the power exchange, and the reality of being Dom or sub.

My friend gets aroused by pics of women in leather, men in harnesses and the thought of dildo's etc. They may use those implements and fantasies in their sex life however they would never dream of 'playing' at the stage where either you or your partner is giving over control, when safe words are a necessity in case of bodily injury, where you will be inflicting mental/physical/emotional torment, exhaustion and stretching all limits.
Maybe I’m not explaining myself very well; fetish sex is when you have a fetish about a particular item or act and incorporating that can give you a sexual buzz totally unrelated to whatever else is going on.
Kinky sex is when you enjoy the fantasy of being tied up - you may bring it into reality by actually binding your hands with a scarf but you are not really tied u p - its a prop to enhance the fantasy

Bondage sex is centred around tying someone up - for real, they can't get out of the ropes (or cuffs etc)
BDSM is about power, control, its intense concentration and taking your whole being one or many steps further - you don't play at this you do it.

However having said that - anyone should be able to feel welcome in a community - I think there is some rational for certain parties/gatherings to be 'experienced BDSMer's only'
The event we are organising in two weeks is open to anyone who makes the effort to dress sup a little and who enjoys or thinks they might enjoy kink/fetish
A play party or designated fetish night would however be open only to self identified BDSMer's or vouched for novices - we don't want to scare virgins, or feel that they are judging some of the more extreme stuff that might go on; and we don't want them to be wandering around asking too many questions - that’s what a munch is for - I guess is appropriate places and times for certain mixes of people.

I had a bad experience at a torture garden do a year ago when I got hit on by an American man over for a week or two. He was what I would describe as a swinger luster with mild kink. At a fetish event like this one I don't expect to be hit on except in the politest possible way - are you here with anyone is an okay question but to try and kiss/fondle me with the assumption that because of what I was wearing I was an 'easy lay' or non-monogamous - not fair! and not what any of the BDSMer's I know would have done.

I'm sorry I seem to have ranted a bit and got right of whatever topic I was trying to contribute to. I'll go away now and make tea (the English remedy for all ills)

 

[catalina_francisco]

Interesting discussion..identified with Lancecastor's views well...and it is always nice to revisit the words of those who no longer frequent the board for one reason or another. Any thoughts anyone would care to add?

Catalina