Battles BC

[ishtat]

My guess is youve not tried to ride an African elephant lately.

The Elephants used by Hannibal were a North African sub-species which is now extinct. The were slightly smaller than an Indian elephant and much smaller than their sub Saharan relatives.

Their main tactical importance was that their trumpeting and smell terrified horses thus negating the Roman cavalry.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ISHTAT

Hmmmm. Interesting.

 

[Dragonlipz]

Thanks, I'll check out the series

sounds interesting

 

[R. Richard]

He was one of the greatest tacticians ever. Just not a strategist, he won the battles and lost the war. His invention of the double envelopment that is still taught today in most combat and officer schools around the world was the battle that cost Rome 70,000 dead.

I must disagree with the idea that Hannibal Barca invented the double envelopment tactic. Alexander the Great used a single envelopment and Miltiades used a double envelopment tactic at Marathon.

Hannibal was indeed a great general and a great tactician. He did have some lacks in the strategic area. Strangely, his campaign in the Second Punic War was effectively ended when Gaius Claudius Nero defeated his brother Hasdrubal, using a modified single envelopment.

Perhaps the real genius of Hannibal was in his use of miltary intelligence. He always seems to have better knowledge of the Roman armies than they had of his army. The one single breakdown in his intelligence advantage was when the capture of his scouts led Gaius Claudius Nero to march North and defeat Hasdrubal.

 

[R. Richard]

The Elephants used by Hannibal were a North African sub-species which is now extinct. The were slightly smaller than an Indian elephant and much smaller than their sub Saharan relatives.

Their main tactical importance was that their trumpeting and smell terrified horses thus negating the Roman cavalry.

The Romans did adapt, however. By the Battle of Zama, the Romans had horses that were raised in pastures next to elephants and they were used to them. Also Scipio Africanus arranged for his army to open its ranks and create lanes for the Carthaginian elephants to pass through. The Romans used trumptes and noise from beating on their shields to guide the elephants through the lanes, while the Romans used javelins to remove the elephant riders from the backs of the elephants.

Again at Zama, the Roman and Numidian cavalry first defeated Hannibal's cavalry [aided by the fact that the Carthaginians were too cheap to hire the top quality Spanish cavalry.] Once the Carthaginian cavalry was defeated, the Roman cavalry hit the Carthaginian main line from the rear, in a form of envelopment.

 

[EesomeBeastie]

Didn't help Hannibal that his government's support was lukewarm at best. Then again, he was a bit of a loose cannon and they were afraid he'd provoke Rome into an all out campaign to destroy Carthage (which of course happened).

I visited the site of Carthage when I went on holiday to Tunisia last spring. There's very little pre-Roman left, but I'm glad I went just so I can say I stood there.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Didn't help Hannibal that his government's support was lukewarm at best. Then again, he was a bit of a loose cannon and they were afraid he'd provoke Rome into an all out campaign to destroy Carthage (which of course happened).

I visited the site of Carthage when I went on holiday to Tunisia last spring. There's very little pre-Roman left, but I'm glad I went just so I can say I stood there.

That old saw about flattening the place and sowing salt to kill the soil is mostly propaganda. Yeah, the Romans demolished the city and sold off the population into slavery but when you calculate how much salt it would have taken to really kill the ground, it must have basically been symbolic. Besides, as you pointed out, the Romans came back later and built their own city on the site. It was too good a harbor to abandon.

 

[cloudy]

Didn't help Hannibal that his government's support was lukewarm at best. Then again, he was a bit of a loose cannon and they were afraid he'd provoke Rome into an all out campaign to destroy Carthage (which of course happened).

The entire reason for his fight with Rome, though, was a blood vow to his father.

Note to R.Richard: his brother was Hasdrubal, and the Numidian Cavalry did not fight for Rome, but for Carthage (the Numidian King was Hannibal's brother-in-law).

 

[EesomeBeastie]

The entire reason for his fight with Rome, though, was a blood vow to his father.

Note to R.Richard: his brother was Hasdrubal, and the Numidian Cavalry did not fight for Rome, but for Carthage.

Numidia was split into eastern and western kingdoms. One supported Carthage and the other supported Rome. Interestingly, the eastern kingdom swapped to supporting Rome when they had a new king part way through the Second Punic War, and the westerners changed round also. So when Rome finally won, they gave the now-unified Numidia to the eastern king Massinissa.

 

[ishtat]

The Romans did adapt, however. By the Battle of Zama, the Romans had horses that were raised in pastures next to elephants and they were used to them. Also Scipio Africanus arranged for his army to open its ranks and create lanes for the Carthaginian elephants to pass through. The Romans used trumptes and noise from beating on their shields to guide the elephants through the lanes, while the Romans used javelins to remove the elephant riders from the backs of the elephants.

Again at Zama, the Roman and Numidian cavalry first defeated Hannibal's cavalry [aided by the fact that the Carthaginians were too cheap to hire the top quality Spanish cavalry.] Once the Carthaginian cavalry was defeated, the Roman cavalry hit the Carthaginian main line from the rear, in a form of envelopment.

An interesting sideline is that the Romans knew how effective elephants were in battle because they had been used plenty of times before. Ptolemaic Egypt had used North African Elephants in their battles with the Selucid Empire. They were badly beaten partly because the Selucids were equipped with the much larger Indian elephant. Alexander had also had trouble with elephantine opponents when he tried to advance into India.

However by the time Hannibal came along the Parthian Empire had emerged in Persia 247BC and they cut off the supply of Indian elephant to Rome. Parthia too was much too strong for Rome to attack except on the fringes. It's interesting to speculate as to what Hannibal's reputation might have been had Rome access to Indian elephants