Aversion to BDSM...?

[Netzach]

I love how fatalist the BDSM crowd seems to be around here.

It's a simple question of pairing the right stimuli with the desired response.

You can create a turn on for some one! Or do you honestly believe that your sexual preferences and practices have not changed throughout your life.

While sexuality is fluid how well has making gay people be straight worked out over time? Some people adapt to prison sex lives some don't and never will. You can create a turn on a lot of the time, but the idea that you can just turn ANYone on with BDSM is basically doo doo.

If you try pairing stimuli enough with someone who just is NOT into it you will piss that person off and they won't be the kinkier for it. It's demoralizing and it's the right of people not to be into everything the other person is into. That's my point - the attitude that they will be so much better off for embracing everything I like because it gives me wet panties and their reluctance is a hang up to be overcome and not - you know - just THEM - is common and unfair.

 

[teknight]

While sexuality is fluid how well has making gay people be straight worked out over time? Some people adapt to prison sex lives some don't and never will. You can create a turn on a lot of the time, but the idea that you can just turn ANYone on with BDSM is basically doo doo.

If you try pairing stimuli enough with someone who just is NOT into it you will piss that person off and they won't be the kinkier for it. It's demoralizing and it's the right of people not to be into everything the other person is into. That's my point - the attitude that they will be so much better off for embracing everything I like because it gives me wet panties and their reluctance is a hang up to be overcome and not - you know - just THEM - is common and unfair.

Way to use the extreme example to prove a point.

But, fine, don't worry, you're right. Can't THEY change? I'm not saying they will, I'm saying they can. You're saying FUCK even trying, 'cause it's wrong to wanna change someone. I'm saying give them a chance.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Way to use the extreme example to prove a point.

But, fine, don't worry, you're right. Can't THEY change? I'm not saying they will, I'm saying they can. You're saying FUCK even trying, 'cause it's wrong to wanna change someone. I'm saying give them a chance.

But there's a difference between forcing that change, and just letting it happen, is there not?

 

[lovebound]

But there's a difference between forcing that change, and just letting it happen, is there not?

I think that's the point Netzach is trying to make. My problem then lies in the balance of introducing and suggesting certain things and 'letting it happen'. I definitely am not into forcing anyone to like anything - if that were even possible, and it's not - but I know at least perceptions can change. I'm just terribly impatient.

 

[teknight]

I think that's the point Netzach is trying to make. My problem then lies in the balance of introducing and suggesting certain things and 'letting it happen'. I definitely am not into forcing anyone to like anything - if that were even possible, and it's not - but I know at least perceptions can change. I'm just terribly impatient.

Nah. Put a gun to his head, and a blowtorch to his genitals and force him. Did I say that?!

 

[Stella_Omega]

But there's a difference between forcing that change, and just letting it happen, is there not?

baby, you're talking about BDSM.

 

[Netzach]

Way to use the extreme example to prove a point.

But, fine, don't worry, you're right. Can't THEY change? I'm not saying they will, I'm saying they can. You're saying FUCK even trying, 'cause it's wrong to wanna change someone. I'm saying give them a chance.

I'm going on what I've witnessed and been involved in for the last 13 years, instead of what would be nice if it worked in my little pony wishland. But who cares?

YES - sometimes someone comes around to like BDSM and even D/s when they realize that their secret desires don't make them an abusive asshole. Sometimes is the operative word. Also tends to happen swiftly as in "really? You want me to do that?"

98% of what I've seen is someone meeting the partner 1/3 of the way to shut her up at last. It ain't pretty. The sex remains so-so because she knows it's being done to please her, antithetical really to the point.

It bothers me to no end that we treat this kind of thing as a problem with simple solutions, based on how we, as kinked people, think.

 

[teknight]

Nah. Put a gun to his head, and a blowtorch to his genitals and force him. Did I say that?!

I'm going on what I've witnessed and been involved in for the last 13 years, instead of what would be nice if it worked in my little pony wishland. But who cares?

YES - sometimes someone comes around to like BDSM and even D/s when they realize that their secret desires don't make them an abusive asshole. Sometimes is the operative word. Also tends to happen swiftly as in "really? You want me to do that?"

98% of what I've seen is someone meeting the partner 1/3 of the way to shut her up at last. It ain't pretty.

Netz, samples of one make for great biases.

lovebound, just dump this fucker now. Obviously, he's no good for you. Avoid the drama early.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Netz, samples of one make for great biases.

lovebound, just dump this fucker now. Obviously, he's no good for you. Avoid the drama early.

Netz isn't going on one sample, she's in the biz-- remember?

I'm not, but I can add a few more samples to her one.

 

[teknight]

Netz isn't going on one sample, she's in the biz-- remember?

I'm not, but I can add a few more samples to her one.

So, people paying her to get what they can't get from their partners... doesn't bias her? Because she gets a fully random sample of play partners?

Whatever, attitude change is hard to do, and sometimes your attempts result in inoculating the other party to your arguments, so, like I said, lovebound, just dump him now.

 

[Stella_Omega]

My primary partner is not as passionate about BDSM as I am. It's very obvious, when we play; I rarely feel satisfied for myself and play with him for his own sake--so he doesn't feel left out or something like that.

And we've been working on that for two decades.

There are times when I feel pretty fucking stifled. But I haven't dumped the fucker.

Don't give relationship advice, okay?

 

[Netzach]

So, people paying her to get what they can't get from their partners... doesn't bias her? Because she gets a fully random sample of play partners?

Whatever, attitude change is hard to do, and sometimes your attempts result in inoculating the other party to your arguments, so, like I said, lovebound, just dump him now.

Yes, because I haven't played with practically scores of people in my personal life, talked to them, or known them and I haven't been in any relationships myself. BDSM hooker c'est moi. Additionally, I don't know ANY women whose husbands aren't driving them batshit with hinting that they want more kink/control/whippings.

My advice in these situations is advice I got. Do everything you can do, so you don't find yourself wishing there was something you did and didn't do. But accept that this may never change. One bit. Whether you stay or not, I wouldn't presume one fucking bit of insight.

What happened in my case? He got sick of my contortions and the misery and moved on. He is now with a vanilla slightly submissive in personality monogamous chick and I'm with M. Net result - much better.

But what the fuck do I know but people paying me. Way to assume this is the entirety of the "sample" I'm talking about.

Here - how's this. Give him a copy of screw the roses send me the thorns - talk about it every time you're having sex, keep buying nonthreatening fur toys that you find boring because don't worry they're a gateway drug into his natural ManDomness - it's EASY. Be sure to keep bringing it up because you know - communication!

Here's one more reason it doesn't work - how satisfying is it ever going to be to a submissive person to *behaviorally condition* their partner into taking the lead, and isn't that more than a little fucked up in a non-negotiated context? I guess I'm just an asshole who thinks its as bad when the person in question is male as they are when they're a woman who is about to be potentially badgered.

lovebound - I don't think you're about to harangue this dude. I want to be clear. I do think you are about to be told 190 ways to harangue this dude, and I'm arguing that while you enact the persuasion program you stay very sensitive to nonverbal information and his actual feelings. Because I'm a jerk like that.

 

[teknight]

Alright.
I'm a tyro. I know nothing, especially compared to any of you, I have nothing to offer to this conversation.

I apologize for giving misguided advice.

 

[lovebound]

Here - how's this. Give him a copy of screw the roses send me the thorns - talk about it every time you're having sex, keep buying nonthreatening fur toys that you find boring because don't worry they're a gateway drug into his natural ManDomness - it's EASY. Be sure to keep bringing it up because you know - communication!

Here's one more reason it doesn't work - how satisfying is it ever going to be to a submissive person to *behaviorally condition* their partner into taking the lead, and isn't that more than a little fucked up in a non-negotiated context? I guess I'm just an asshole who thinks its as bad when the person in question is male as they are when they're a woman who is about to be potentially badgered.

lovebound - I don't think you're about to harangue this dude. I want to be clear. I do think you are about to be told 190 ways to harangue this dude, and I'm arguing that while you enact the persuasion program you stay very sensitive to nonverbal information and his actual feelings. Because I'm a jerk like that.

Bolded is exactly the reason I'm searching for advice in this matter, because 'conditioning' is definitely not what I want to be doing. And I really appreciate your input, especially as someone who has seen far more than myself. Giving him the book is a bit of a tricky idea as he doesn't really like to read - and we already have a few (tame) toys. What I'd really like to enable him to do is gain more confidence to explore, and part of that is helping him to realize that it's not all about leather and pain. Of course communication is the most important thing.

Netz, samples of one make for great biases.

lovebound, just dump this fucker now. Obviously, he's no good for you. Avoid the drama early.

If this were the second week of some college fling I might consider that advice. But I'm not about to throw out a well established, completely functional, whole relationship because we may run on different tracks in the bedroom. We're compatible on far more levels than just sex - oh, and by the way, I love him.

 

[teknight]

The above advice was in no way, shape or form sarcastic.
I fully do expect you to take my advice as writ of law and execute it without hesitation.

 

[lovebound]

The above advice was in no way, shape or form sarcastic.
I fully do expect you to take my advice as writ of law and execute it without hesitation.

Years from now I'll write a book about how the words of teknight have changed my life... Maybe you'll be in it.

 

[teknight]

Years from now I'll write a book about how the words of teknight have changed my life... Maybe you'll be in it.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/98/223517157_f1e326a093.jpg
Like so?!

 

[DVS]

I had a whole post that I deleted because it was discombobulated. I'm not so sure this one is any better. I guess I'll just say he might not understand the concept, correctly. If you sit down with him and explain things from the submissive's point of view, he might see it in a different light.

But it is true that you can't change someone who just doesn't feel it. If he correctly understands your twist on things and still can't find himself in that role, such is life.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Bolded is exactly the reason I'm searching for advice in this matter, because 'conditioning' is definitely not what I want to be doing. And I really appreciate your input, especially as someone who has seen far more than myself. Giving him the book is a bit of a tricky idea as he doesn't really like to read - and we already have a few (tame) toys. What I'd really like to enable him to do is gain more confidence to explore, and part of that is helping him to realize that it's not all about leather and pain. Of course communication is the most important thing.



If this were the second week of some college fling I might consider that advice. But I'm not about to throw out a well established, completely functional, whole relationship because we may run on different tracks in the bedroom. We're compatible on far more levels than just sex - oh, and by the way, I love him.

yep-- that makes it much tougher.

I was saying via PM-- sometimes you have two imperfect choices and no perfect one, and that's life.

 

[CutieMouse]

Grab a copy of When Someone You Love is Kinky... which I just discovered is apparently now out of print. Crap. Anyway - if you can find a copy, it can be a good book to read to explore how to discuss the subject in a neutral, open dialogue, non-threatening sort of way.

However, having said that - I'm with Netz on this. When these sorts of subjects come up, I always end up wondering why one person's desire to get their partner to be more into XYZ, trumps their partner's desire not to.

It sounds to me like the OP and her partner simply see BDSM differently. They have a couple of options:

1) be happy with what you have
2) compromise and meet in the middle
3) discuss getting certain needs met elsewhere
4) decide the kink is more important than the other stuff and decide what to do from there

 

[midwestyankee]

<snip>

However, having said that - I'm with Netz on this. When these sorts of subjects come up, I always end up wondering why one person's desire to get their partner to be more into XYZ, trumps their partner's desire not to.

<snip>

What CM says here makes a lot of sense - as does the rest of her post but I wanted to focus on this chunk at the moment.

I think that there's a different way to see this than "trumping" the other partner's desire (though we all have seen dozens of threads begun by those who are all about the trumping). I think you have to give the seemingly less interested partner the benefit of ignorance and not try to push something unknown to a point that could damage the relationship. When one partner wants something - say a new house or to try a new hobby and knows far more about real estate or the new hobby than the other, it can create a barrier to relating within the partnership. Both partners need to feel that they're making informed decisions about things that affect the pair. But it's also the case that it's hard to make an informed decision - even about your own desires - until you know the lay of the land (we've met but she's not my type). And it rarely works for the passionately interested partner to do all the informing.

If you, lovebound, can find a good book that presents kink in a dispassionate way and he can absorb it in a mostly objective and curious frame of mind, then you stand a good chance of him understanding what interests you. I gather that this was part of your motive for taking him to the show you visited. That was a good idea. Giving him a chance to get a broader picture of kink without a lot of stimulation and personal associations involved might work a little better.

When Someone You Love is Kinky is a terrific book. I got it for my wife to read and it gave her a much scarier sense of kink than she had had before reading it. And don't despair that it's out of print - there are a lot of used booksellers online and you may very well find a copy for just a few loonies.

Best of luck finding a balanced place for some kink in your life.

 

[where]

I love how fatalist the BDSM crowd seems to be around here.

It's a simple question of pairing the right stimuli with the desired response.

You can create a turn on for some one! Or do you honestly believe that your sexual preferences and practices have not changed throughout your life.

OK, well I kind of know what Netz is saying here.

For some people being into pain is not something that can properly learned. I think however that you can help someone nudge or explore sides which they have previously been resistant to. I'm in a relationship with someone who is very VERY vanilla. He has, over time been open to trying new things and in some cases he has horrified himself at how readily he has taken to doing certain things and how turned on by them he was.

Now I suspect that is simply because he is actually subconsciously into these things anyway. they are, to use the BDSM lingo, limits, but not hard ones. But harder than soft limits, perhaps.

And whilst he may blanche at the idea of tying me up, flogging me, choking me and fucking every orifice, he is actually able to do it. I managed to slowly introduce more and more extreme activities and he's followed. But only so far and only in a direction that he felt he ~might~ be comfortable with. I put a finger anywhere near his asshole, his cock shrivels and he runs screaming. That is never ever going to happen with him and for some people, the whole notion of inflicting violence on someone they love is so repugnant and counter-intuitive that
they are unable to even consider it despite the other half wanting it.

 

[teknight]

It's hard, don't even try.
I'm rejecting the ABSOLUTE negativity of some of the statements made here. Put on your positive hats, peeps.

http://images6.cpcache.com/product/65812156v6_225x225_Front.jpg


ETA: I'm not saying it's easy to do (well, not that easy to do), and he might genuinely not be into some things (MAYBE), but I think you guys are painting too bleak a picture, to where it's not just difficult, but downright impossible and thus stupid to try to influence someone else*, and I'm not sure why that is. That's why I used the term fatalism.


*Have your hard limits ever changed?

 

[where]

It's hard, don't even try.
I'm rejecting the ABSOLUTE negativity of some of the statements made here. Put on your positive hats, peeps.

http://images6.cpcache.com/product/65812156v6_225x225_Front.jpg


ETA: I'm not saying it's easy to do (well, not that easy to do), and he might genuinely not be into some things (MAYBE), but I think you guys are painting too bleak a picture, to where it's not just difficult, but downright impossible and thus stupid to try to influence someone else*, and I'm not sure why that is. That's why I used the term fatalism.


*Have your hard limits ever changed?

no, they haven't.

and I could 'try' and be a domme. I might even do a good impression of it, but I really do think I would hate every moment.

All you can do is let people know that shit they think is like really really bad, isn't actually that bad at all as long as it's SSC. and if it's there in them somewhere, they will let it out.

 

[teknight]

no, they haven't.

and I could 'try' and be a domme. I might even do a good impression of it, but I really do think I would hate every moment.

All you can do is let people know that shit they think is like really really bad, isn't actually that bad at all as long as it's SSC. and if it's there in them somewhere, they will let it out.

See, I don't agree with this "in them" business. I don't see kink as innate. But, you have a right to be wrong.