Atlantis?

R. Richard

Literotica Guru
Joined
Jul 24, 2003
Posts
10,382
There are a group of islands in the Mediterranean called the Santorini Group. The largest of the islands is Thera. From observation, Thera was greatly damaged at some time in the distant past, presumably by a volcanic eruption. Some students think that the Santorini Group was the basis of the Atlantis legend. If that view is accepted, then the Minoan Civilization was a settlement of the "Atlantean" Civilization of the Santorini Group. The Santorini Group/Cretan civilizations were major influences on all of the early Mediterranean civilizations.

Just a little ancient history lesson for those who might be interested. Comment?

Olive branch solves a Bronze Age mystery
Discovery rewrites history of ancient Mediterranean civilizations
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12502996/?GT1=7938

Science Picture:
View of Santorini, Greece, from Fira. The Akrotiri peninsula (top left) was an area of major Bronze Age settlement that was destroyed but preserved by a massive volcanic eruption, which has now been dated to the 17th century B.C., a century earlier than previously thought.

Compared to the well-studied world of Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey, the civilizations that flourished in the eastern Mediterranean just before Homer’s time are still cloaked in mystery.

Even the basic chronology of the region during this time has been heatedly debated. Now, a resolution has finally emerged -- initiated, quite literally, by an olive branch.

Scientists have discovered the remains of a single olive tree, buried alive during a massive volcanic eruption during the Late Bronze Age. A study that dates this tree, plus another study that dates a series of objects from before, during and after the eruption, now offer a new timeline for one of the earliest chapters of European civilization.

The new results suggest that the sophisticated and powerful Minoan civilization (featured in the legend of Theseus and the Minotaur) and several other pre-Homeric civilizations arose about a century earlier and lasted for longer than previously thought.

The new timeframe also downplays Egypt’s role in the region, suggesting that the cultures of the Levant, the stretch of land that includes Syria, Israel and Palestine, may have been a more important outside influence.

The pair of studies appears in the 28 April issue of the journal Science, published by AAAS, the nonprofit science society.

During the Late Bronze Age, large building complexes appeared on Crete and later on mainland Greece as part of the Minoan “New Palace” civilization. At its high point, this civilization seems to have been the dominant cultural and economic force across the region, as the result of trade rather than military strength.

Science picture:
This collapsed main staircase is one of the remains uncovered at Akrotiri, once a major prehistoric settlement on Santorini.

On Santorini, a major prehistoric settlement called Akrotiri was buried by the Minoan eruption, preserving what’s often called “the Pompeii of the Aegean.” Archeologists have uncovered three- and four-story houses and many other finds there, including an extraordinary collection of wall paintings that offer a glimpse into Minoan life. Women apparently played important civic and religious roles, including joining men in the sport of “bull-leaping,” which seems to have been religiously significant and as dangerous as the name implies.

The people of the Shaft Grave culture on mainland Greece, meanwhile, are known for burying their rulers with an eye-catching array of weapons, tools, pottery and other gold-rich ornaments. One grave contained a face mask that was originally identified as that of Agamemnon, the legendary king of Mycenae who led the Greeks against Troy in the Iliad.

The new findings suggest that it belonged to an earlier chief or king instead.

Also around the same time, major new coastal political systems were growing on Cyprus, fuelled by the island’s important copper industry that supplied the metal-hungry civilizations in the east Mediterranean.

Rethinking the timeline
It’s generally thought that these cultural developments in the eastern Mediterranean occurred during the 16th century B.C., along with the New Kingdom period in Egypt, when Egypt expanded its influence into western Asia.

The new studies suggests that these developments probably took place instead during the preceding “Second Intermediate Period,” when Egyptian power was weak and a foreign Canaanite dynasty even conquered northern Egypt for a while.

According to the new chronology, the Late Bronze Age civilizations in the Aegean and on Cyprus may have developed in association with 18th- and 17th-century Canaanite and Levantine civilizations and their expanding maritime trade world. These cultures were very different from the Egyptians’ in terms of culture, language and religion.

“If the papers published this week in Science are correct, then a critical new historical context may explain aspects of the development, languages, literature, religion and mythology of the Aegean and the later Classical worlds,” said Sturt Manning of the Cornell University and the University of Reading in the United Kingdom, who is the lead author of one of the studies.

The great debate
For more than a century, archaeologists have developed the chronology for this region by painstakingly comparing the various civilizations’ artifacts and artistic styles, such as how spirals were painted on pots or how metalwork was done. To pin the cultural periods to calendar dates, they then linked them to the accepted dates for the Egyptian pharaohs.

Since the 1970s, scientists have been measuring radiocarbon dates from the same areas, which don’t match with this artifact-based timeframe. Because of uncertainty about the dating methods, however, the radiocarbon results haven’t been convincing enough to overturn the archaeologists’ conclusions.

“It’s probably the biggest controversy in eastern Mediterranean archeology,” Manning said.

There has also been an inertia factor. Manning noted that if the existing chronology were wrong, it would mean rewriting the dates in museums and textbooks. And, it would have a more far-reaching effect, requiring a rethinking of some of the basic assumptions about the origins of European history.

“You would have a concertina effect, since you can’t move one part without upsetting the whole apple cart. Thus, it has been said that rewriting the chronology is impossible,” Manning said.

The 'Pompeii of the Aegean'
During the Minoan eruption, the volcano on what is now Santorini spewed ash and rocky debris up to hundreds of kilometers around. It was one of the largest eruptions in recorded history, and some researchers have even proposed that it was the basis for the legend of Atlantis.

The widespread volcanic ash layer offers a reference point that could potentially help line up the ages of various sites in the eastern Mediterranean, but researchers have not been able to date the layer precisely enough until now.


Science picture:
Scientists found this branch from an olive tree that buried in its living position by the volcanic ash.

A remarkable solution to the problem emerged when Walter Friedrich and his graduate student Tom Pfeiffer, both of the University of Aarhus in Denmark, found the branch of an olive tree that was buried in its living position by the ash. The remains of the tree’s bark, leaves and twigs showed that the tree was still alive at the time of the eruption.

“I’ve been working on Santorini for 30 years and this is the first time I have seen such a thing,” Friedrich said.

By analyzing and dating the tree rings, Friedrich’s research team was able to pinpoint the age of the eruption more precisely than ever before, since the outermost ring was formed in roughly the same year that the volcano erupted.

The new timeframe for the eruption is between 1627 and 1600 B.C., a century earlier than archaeological studies have suggested.

“This was one of the biggest eruptions known to mankind, and now we have a precise date for the first time,” Friedrich said.

Before and after the eruption
The new age for the eruption fits in neatly with a much larger series of radiocarbon dates put together by Sturt Manning and his colleagues.

Manning’s team collected a large number of seeds and some tree-ring samples from a 300-year time span that included the Minoan eruption. They put together sets of data in a known sequence from before, around, and after the eruption and used sophisticated statistical methods to define new, more precise dates than before.

Given past controversy, they took a number of precautions, such as analyzing the seeds at two separate labs, to reduce the uncertainty of the earlier radiocarbon studies. The picture now from the radiocarbon seems fairly clear, according to Manning, but in conflict with the established dates and history.

Overall, the radiocarbon results indicate that the formation and high point of the New Palace period of Crete, the wall paintings of Akrotiri, the Shaft Grave period of the Greek mainland, and the political changes on Cyprus all occurred before approximately 1600 B.C. This is not only about 100 years earlier than thought; it also implies that the overall cultural era involved lasted much longer than researchers had assumed.

The new chronology makes the world of New Palace Crete even more important and interesting, Manning said, turning the later 18th and 17th centuries B.C. into an exciting new “cultural cauldron” from which significant elements of European history may have originated.
 
Oh, Santorini :heart:

I've been to that volcano! The water around it is stained with sulfur, and there are hot rocks in certain places.

I think it's really cool that they keep discovering things. The islands are strewn with ruins, as is all of Greece...I love when science helps us learn something more about the past.
 
R. Richard said:
There are a group of islands in the Mediterranean called the Santorini Group. The largest of the islands is Thera. From observation, Thera was greatly damaged at some time in the distant past, presumably by a volcanic eruption. Some students think that the Santorini Group was the basis of the Atlantis legend. If that view is accepted, then the Minoan Civilization was a settlement of the "Atlantean" Civilization of the Santorini Group. The Santorini Group/Cretan civilizations were major influences on all of the early Mediterranean civilizations.

Just a little ancient history lesson for those who might be interested. Comment?
I heard this theory several years ago on the Discovery Channel. I don't know if I believe it or not but it's a good theory with a lot of circumstantial evidence to suport it. Basically, I'm saying that I really don't have an opinion as to whether or not the theory is correct.

I can tell you this much though. I also saw, again on the Discovery Channel, that there's another group of people that have put forward the theory that the 10 Plagues of Egypt were actually caused by the Santorini erruption. Debris from the Santorini erruption was found in Egypt and, if the dating of the Bible is accurate, they occured very near the same time. Again, I don't know if I believe the theory or not but it certainly seems plausable with a lot of circumstantial evidence in its favor.

So, that's my comment. :cool:
All Hail The Discovery Channel...for The Lord did look down upon it and bless it saying, "It is mighty within My sight. Good and worth of My Love."...or words to that effect, anyway.:D
 
You always have to keep in mind that the Atlantis myth is supposedly related to the greks from the Egyptians. The greek version of the myth places Atlantis "Beyond the pillars of Hercules" which is generally accepted to mean beyond Gibraliter, out in the Atlantic. But a lot of scholars belive this is a mistranslation by Salon(?) from the Egyptian to the Greek.

Thera has long been the most "mainstream" explanation for the myth. When she blew, the resulting Tusnami obliterated the Minoans on Crete and their outposts on the greek mainland. I like this particular explanation, because it seems to fit most myths, a kernal of truth, layered over with supernatural interpretation from a pre scientific age.

In as much as any explanation really seems to fit, Thera does. It is of course in the wrong place and inthe wrong time, but in an age when maps were sketchy and time keeping often done in generations, I think it's a solid contender.
 
My favourite book in all the world ("Not The End Of The World" by Christopher Brookmyre) touches on the destruction of Thera and the repurcussions thereof.

One of the interesting facts to come out of the study of that area is that the Philistines were actually one of the more cultured and advanced civilisations of the area, with a fine appreciation of the arts and their reputation has been unjustly slandered over the years.

The Earl
 
Tom Collins said:
All Hail The Discovery Channel...for The Lord did look down upon it and bless it saying, "It is mighty within My sight. Good and worth of My Love."...or words to that effect, anyway.:D


Yeah and those Discovery Channel blessed with MythBusters and MythBusters blessed with Kari Byron, and she is damn good!, Full of grace and beauty, impish of smile and ingenious of mind!

Ok, so I like smart girls who are mischievous and look great in a bikini, sue me ;)
 
Salvor-Hardon said:
Yeah and those Discovery Channel blessed with MythBusters and MythBusters blessed with Kari Byron, and she is damn good!, Full of grace and beauty, impish of smile and ingenious of mind!

Ok, so I like smart girls who are mischievous and look great in a bikini, sue me ;)
Hubba, hubba, hubba! :D
 
TheEarl said:
My favourite book in all the world ("Not The End Of The World" by Christopher Brookmyre) touches on the destruction of Thera and the repurcussions thereof.

One of the interesting facts to come out of the study of that area is that the Philistines were actually one of the more cultured and advanced civilisations of the area, with a fine appreciation of the arts and their reputation has been unjustly slandered over the years.

The Earl

Yeah. The Philistines did have a high culture, and the invasion of the Hebrews was basically the overrunning of a rich, citified civilization by a horde of stone-age barbarians and shepherds from the hills.

I love the part in the bible where the Hebrews run in terror from the Philistine's chariots because they had iron wheels, a metal the Jews had never seen. (The Hebrews didn't know from chariots either.) The only metal they had was bronze, and precious little of that. Their ignorance of chariots and iron is another clue that they'd never actually been slaves in Egypt at all, where both chariots and iron were known.

It was because Philistine culture was so attractive and seductive to the early Hebrews that there are so many tales in the bible of Hebrew Kings back-sliding and worshipping false (i.e. Philistine) gods. Philistines ate pork and shellfish too, and it's thought that the kosher laws were intended to keep the Hebrews from mingling with the more civilized Philistines on the coast and keep them pure to their sheep-tending ways.
 
The thing that particularly interests me about the idea of Thera as Atlantis is what must have been the case if the idea is correct.

Obviously, the inhabitants of Thera reached the island via boats or ships. They then settled Thera and perhaps some of the other islands in the Santorini Group. As inhabitants of a small island it seems resonable that they would try to trade with other peoples in the area in order to obtain things they wanted that might not be available on Thera [copper, for instance.] According to the legends, Altlantis had tall ships and, from historical evidence, advanced pottery.

If Thera was a traditional ancient civilization, only a very few of the people on Thera would actually know how to construct the tall ships and only a relatively few of the people would be skilled in the making of the advanced pottery. These few people then would be the basis of the legend of Atlantis.

In addition, the Minoan Civilization on Crete wold have been the children of the people of Thera.

Thus, a very few people, on a small island would have been the basis of a legend that still lives today. In addition, they would have created the basis of a much larger civilization on Crete. The accompishments boggle the mind!

JMHO.
 
Atlantis was a flying city that left the earth millions of years ago.

Don't you watch the Sci-Fi channel?

:rolleyes:
 
The problem with the Thera explosion as an explanation for the Atlantis myth is that it requires the Greeks to have differentiated between the Minoans on Crete and the Minoan colony at Thera as two separate and powerful (the latter bordering on all-powerful) entities. I don't see that as being particularly likely. Furthermore, there are some discrepancies between the Minoans and the story of Atlantis -- the time frame (according to Plato, Atlantis was destroyed 9000 years before his time) and the war with Athens (of which no evidence of has been found), for example.

Ultimately, Minoan civilisation survived at least a full century after the Thera eruption (which, for those interested, is estimated to be one of the four worst eruptions in the span of human existence, with a Volcanic Eruption Index of 7). Indeed, this revised dating is evidence against the Minoan Thera as Atlantis idea, as it results in the Minoan civilisation (as a whole) surviving for two centuries after the Thera eruption in c.1620 till the Mycenaean conquest in c.1420. It should be noted that a revised chronology itself isn't new, people (including Sturt Manning, the author of the second study) have been proposing an earlier date for the Thera eruption for years (based upon tree ring data in Ireland, carbon dates from the area, and so forth), this is just one more bit of evidence in favour of an earlier chronology, bringing the end of the Middle Minoan III period and the beginning of Late Minoan IA back a century.

The Atlantis myth is an interesting one and tempting to try to fit into reality, but it doesn't fit easily. It's possible that a memory of different traumatic events in the history of the Aegean contributed to the Atlantis myth, as a composite story, but in the end it's a little tale about morality and obeying the Gods. There are those of the opinion that the story of Atlantis isn't a historical story and isn't a story about the greatness of Atlantis, but a story about the greatness of Athens.

(Perhaps we'll come back to Atlantis in a moment)

The interesting part of the studies (which I have not read, although I have read prior information about revising the chronology), at least to me, isn't well covered in that article, which focuses too much on the Egypt question and not enough on what is actually important -- the Levant. An earlier date for the Thera eruption involves a shifting in the relative chronologies of the Aegean -- shifting Late Minoan IA back one hundred years, and presumably Late Helladic I as well -- thus synchronising Late Minoan IA with Late Cypriot I, the Levantine Middle Bronze Age, and the Second Intermediate Period in Egypt, specifically the 15th Dynasty under the Hyksos.

Ergo, the Minoans were at their height when Egypt was in a lower point -- trade between Crete and Egypt went on as found in the archaeological record, but requires a revised dating. Most of which can be done relatively easily, The question then regards the foreign dynasty in Egypt, being of apparent Canaanite extraction, and its relationship with the Minoans on Crete and with their relatives back in the Levant. While the balance of power in the region was not in favour of Egypt, I don't know that a link between Minoan civilisation and the Levant is established, though it does raise some questions. There isn't a much archaeological evidence tying the Minoans and Levantine civilisation together at this point, which seems to be the crux of the issue.

It is also worth pointing out that this doesn't actually solve anything and there are scholars who reject the new dating, just as there have been for decades with regard to the earlier date for the Thera eruption.

Also, this post is getting long.
 
Equinoxe said:
The problem with the Thera explosion as an explanation for the Atlantis myth is that it requires the Greeks to have differentiated between the Minoans on Crete and the Minoan colony at Thera as two separate and powerful (the latter bordering on all-powerful) entities. I don't see that as being particularly likely. Furthermore, there are some discrepancies between the Minoans and the story of Atlantis -- the time frame (according to Plato, Atlantis was destroyed 9000 years before his time) and the war with Athens (of which no evidence of has been found), for example.

One simple explanation is that the Minoans on Crete were a colony of Thera and not the other way around. It seems unlikely that a Minoan colony on Thera would have become more powerful than the much larger Minoan Civilization on Crete. However, if the Minoan Civilization started on Thera, the events are much more reasonable.

As to the time frame question, there has been a great deal of reasearch done on this and several respected sholars have offered reasonable explanations as to why the time frame was wrong [a mistranslation from the Egyptian.]
 
R. Richard said:
One simple explanation is that the Minoans on Crete were a colony of Thera and not the other way around. It seems unlikely that a Minoan colony on Thera would have become more powerful than the much larger Minoan Civilization on Crete. However, if the Minoan Civilization started on Thera, the events are much more reasonable.

As to the time frame question, there has been a great deal of reasearch done on this and several respected sholars have offered reasonable explanations as to why the time frame was wrong [a mistranslation from the Egyptian.]

But the evidence doesn't support that. There is continuity with the Cretan civilisation from the establishment of Minoan civilisation and the beginings of Early Minoan I c.2900 BCE through to the destruction of Knossos and the Mycenaean expansion into Crete. A revised chronology of the Thera eruption redates the whole of Late Minoan IA, and the "New Palace" period of Minoan Civilisation, to the late 17th century BCE, and brings the end of the Middle Minoan period somewhat earlier, but it doesn't imply (and there is no evidence to suggest) a complete change in the material culture or population of Crete subsequent the Thera eruption. The date changes the time frame for the whole of the Aegean by a century. Nor does evidence exist that Thera had in fact been populated by a Minoan civlisation prior to c.2900 BCE. Assuming that Thera colonised Crete and not vice versa is no more reasonable in light of this evidence than it is without it. Although it is reasonable to assume that anyone who survived or fled the Thera eruption ended up on Crete.

Yes, the assumption being that 900 was misread as 9000; 900 hundred years ago being more reasonable, although in this case, still off a bit, especially with a revised chronology sending it back 100 years. A number of scholars object to that interpretation because it requires a sloppy mistranslation from Egyptian; it involves reading something like this:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/equinoxe/hieroglyph900onpapyrus.jpg as: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/equinoxe/hieroglyph9000onpapyrus.jpg

Though, it would be perhaps more reasonable if we assume they read it in hieratic, reading this:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/equinoxe/hieratic900onpapyrus.jpg as: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/equinoxe/hieratic9000onpapyrus.jpg

It's possible, but I think it's unlikely.
 
Last edited:
Uh, Doc, I think that you have the Philistines confused with the Canaanites. Who was it that suggested that the Hebrews were themselves Canaanites who simply took a different fork in the road? Probably the best theory I have heard here. In which case, there was no massacre or annihilation, just a civil war between factions, the city dwellers vs. the rustics. This explains why Jerusalem changed hands so many times, why the languages are so similar, and why there is no proof of an Exodus. It also explains why the names of the chief Canaanite and Hebrew gods were the same: El Shaddai (Almighty God).

There was a bloody civil war, probably triggered by what the rustics thought were excessive tolls and taxes on their trade in wool and mutton, plus other seemingly oppressive financial practices. Most likely, the Hebrews were a Canaanite tribe exploited by the others who simply revolted, destroyed a bunch of Canaanite cities (but not all of them like the Bible claims) and quashed the growing Baalist religion that the Phoenicians exported to Canaan with trade. Probably usury was a part of the complaint too, which explains a lot of the strong economic regulations in the Torah. Why have so many stipulations about trade, weights, measures, etc., unless a bitter experience prompted them? Eventually, as a unifying measure, the gods Yahweh and El Shaddai were merged into one syncretic deity and a monotheistic religion was formed.

But as to the Philistines, they were probably Minoans or Ionians expelled by Mycenaean or Dorian invaders. Their harsh experience forced them to become raiders. All evidence points to them NOT using chariots, but rather shock and raid tactics much like the Vikings, basically on foot. This made them a low-maintenance, mobile, but seafaring force (hence the term "Sea Peoples") until they settled on Canaanite lands not as heavily populated as others and formed colonies, again much like the Vikings did later. It is little wonder that they prompted much of the same hatred and fear as the Vikings did.

Plato probably DID exaggerate the Cretan civilization into much greater than it was. But he was telling a story, a cautionary tale, and he had an agenda. So it's not surprising that he was off on the details. He probably wasn't too worried about that. And people wanted to hear of a great empire, anyway. Athens's glory days were gone, so it was entertaining and inspiring to hear of a similar great civilization that collapsed. Indeed, it was probably intended as an allegory about the decline of Athens.
 
Salvor-Hardon said:
Yeah and those Discovery Channel blessed with MythBusters and MythBusters blessed with Kari Byron, and she is damn good!, Full of grace and beauty, impish of smile and ingenious of mind!

Ok, so I like smart girls who are mischievous and look great in a bikini, sue me ;)


What episode is she wearing a bikini in???????????

Personally, I love her best in pig tails and tight shirt :)
 
Colleen Thomas said:
What episode is she wearing a bikini in???????????

Personally, I love her best in pig tails and tight shirt :)

Both of those work for me. I like how she interacts with the other people and seems to be fun-loving. Plus, she is a redhead, and that is a slight bonus in her favor. Let's say that I have a mild preference for redheads. :D
 
R. Richard said:
The thing that particularly interests me about the idea of Thera as Atlantis is what must have been the case if the idea is correct.

Obviously, the inhabitants of Thera reached the island via boats or ships. They then settled Thera and perhaps some of the other islands in the Santorini Group. As inhabitants of a small island it seems resonable that they would try to trade with other peoples in the area in order to obtain things they wanted that might not be available on Thera [copper, for instance.] According to the legends, Altlantis had tall ships and, from historical evidence, advanced pottery.

If Thera was a traditional ancient civilization, only a very few of the people on Thera would actually know how to construct the tall ships and only a relatively few of the people would be skilled in the making of the advanced pottery. These few people then would be the basis of the legend of Atlantis.

In addition, the Minoan Civilization on Crete wold have been the children of the people of Thera.

Thus, a very few people, on a small island would have been the basis of a legend that still lives today. In addition, they would have created the basis of a much larger civilization on Crete. The accompishments boggle the mind!

JMHO.


The more likely explanation is that Thera was one of many trading outposts established by the minoan culture. In that interpretation Crete, not therea is the fabled Atlantis. And it was swollowed by the sea, in as much as the tusnami reached far enough inland to obliterate most of their cities. If you have seen footage of the tsunami, it's very easy to believe seepheds on the surrounding hills saw thier cities literally swollowed by the ocean. Granted the waters resided, but the shcok of it probably made an indelible impression.
 
Equinoxe said:
The problem with the Thera explosion as an explanation for the Atlantis myth is that it requires the Greeks to have differentiated between the Minoans on Crete and the Minoan colony at Thera as two separate and powerful (the latter bordering on all-powerful) entities. I don't see that as being particularly likely. Furthermore, there are some discrepancies between the Minoans and the story of Atlantis -- the time frame (according to Plato, Atlantis was destroyed 9000 years before his time) and the war with Athens (of which no evidence of has been found), for example.

Ultimately, Minoan civilisation survived at least a full century after the Thera eruption (which, for those interested, is estimated to be one of the four worst eruptions in the span of human existence, with a Volcanic Eruption Index of 7). Indeed, this revised dating is evidence against the Minoan Thera as Atlantis idea, as it results in the Minoan civilisation (as a whole) surviving for two centuries after the Thera eruption in c.1620 till the Mycenaean conquest in c.1420. It should be noted that a revised chronology itself isn't new, people (including Sturt Manning, the author of the second study) have been proposing an earlier date for the Thera eruption for years (based upon tree ring data in Ireland, carbon dates from the area, and so forth), this is just one more bit of evidence in favour of an earlier chronology, bringing the end of the Middle Minoan III period and the beginning of Late Minoan IA back a century.

The Atlantis myth is an interesting one and tempting to try to fit into reality, but it doesn't fit easily. It's possible that a memory of different traumatic events in the history of the Aegean contributed to the Atlantis myth, as a composite story, but in the end it's a little tale about morality and obeying the Gods. There are those of the opinion that the story of Atlantis isn't a historical story and isn't a story about the greatness of Atlantis, but a story about the greatness of Athens.

(Perhaps we'll come back to Atlantis in a moment)

The interesting part of the studies (which I have not read, although I have read prior information about revising the chronology), at least to me, isn't well covered in that article, which focuses too much on the Egypt question and not enough on what is actually important -- the Levant. An earlier date for the Thera eruption involves a shifting in the relative chronologies of the Aegean -- shifting Late Minoan IA back one hundred years, and presumably Late Helladic I as well -- thus synchronising Late Minoan IA with Late Cypriot I, the Levantine Middle Bronze Age, and the Second Intermediate Period in Egypt, specifically the 15th Dynasty under the Hyksos.

Ergo, the Minoans were at their height when Egypt was in a lower point -- trade between Crete and Egypt went on as found in the archaeological record, but requires a revised dating. Most of which can be done relatively easily, The question then regards the foreign dynasty in Egypt, being of apparent Canaanite extraction, and its relationship with the Minoans on Crete and with their relatives back in the Levant. While the balance of power in the region was not in favour of Egypt, I don't know that a link between Minoan civilisation and the Levant is established, though it does raise some questions. There isn't a much archaeological evidence tying the Minoans and Levantine civilisation together at this point, which seems to be the crux of the issue.

It is also worth pointing out that this doesn't actually solve anything and there are scholars who reject the new dating, just as there have been for decades with regard to the earlier date for the Thera eruption.

Also, this post is getting long.

Don'
t know if I have mentioned it before, but Damn Eq, your mind is sexy! :)
 
While we're on the topic of the Philistines and the Sea Peoples:
The connection between the Philistines and the Sea Peoples is sometimes disputed, and revolves around the relation between the Hebrew pelishtim (Philistine) and the Egyptian prst.w ("Peleset" in our interpretation), which is one of the groups mentioned by Ramesses III in the Medinat Habu inscriptions. The extent of the Sea Peoples phenomenon itself is controversial, as there may be a whole series of unrelated conquests going on as well. What is known is that there were attacks throughout the Eastern Mediterranean c.1200 BCE, and various nations were destroyed or severely damaged: Alasiya (Cyprus), Ugarit (destroyed utterly), the Hittites (though, this may be connected with the Phrygians as well), Mitanni (probably connected with more Eastern forces), Mycenaean Greece, and so on. This occurred at the same time as the attacks on Egypt as recorded by Merneptah and Ramesses III, who make reference to attacks throughout the Eastern Mediterranean.

As for the ethno-linguistic affinities of the Philistines, the primary line of thinking (and arguably the largest amount of evidence) connects them with Mycenaean Greece. In terms of material remains, the earliest layers of Philistine settlement (about 1150 BCE) possess pottery of a locally produced variety in the style of Late Helladic IIIC (contemporary Mycenaean) pottery. Linguistically, it's unclear what language the Philistines spoke, but of a handful of terms that survived, they can be reasonably related to Indo-European languages. The Sea Peoples as a whole show greatly varied affinities, some of the material culture is associated with Italic items of the time (weaponry and such), some with West Anatolian, and some even with Central Europe and the Black Sea (ship design). It is worth noting that some of the groups identified as Sea Peoples are mentioned prior to their involvement as Sea Peoples -- sometimes as mercenaries (Ramesses II employed some).

One of the interesting things with regard to the Sea Peoples phenomenon, which has been the subject of a recent theory, is how it relates to the Phoenicians. If you look at a map of the destruction associated with the Sea Peoples and the invasions of around 1200 BCE, there is a rather unexplained gap in Lebanon. To the South, you have the Philistines who settle along the coast, to the north Ugarit is destroyed, and conveniently, cities like Tyre and Sarepta (the best excavated Phoenician site) are untouched; interestingly, the Phoenician island city of Arwad, which had been conquered by the Hittites shortly before the invasion of the Sea Peoples is sacked and returned to Phoenician control at the time of the Sea Peoples. Regardless of whether or not the Sea Peoples were specifically involved with Phoenicia, the Phoenicians did benefit greatly from the elimination of Egyptian, Mycenaean, and Hittite power in the Mediterranean.

In short, there are a lot of theories and a great deal that is unclear about the Sea Peoples (though they are not entirely mysterious).


Colleen Thomas said:
Don'
t know if I have mentioned it before, but Damn Eq, your mind is sexy! :)

Thank you. :eek:
 
Last edited:
Equinoxe said:
While we're on the topic of the Philistines and the Sea Peoples:
The connection between the Philistines and the Sea Peoples is sometimes disputed, and revolves around the relation between the Hebrew pelishtim (Philistine) and the Egyptian prst.w ("Peleset" in our interpretation), which is one of the groups mentioned by Ramesses III in the Medinat Habu inscriptions. The extent of the Sea Peoples phenomenon itself is controversial, as there may be a whole series of unrelated conquests going on as well. What is known is that there were attacks throughout the Eastern Mediterranean c.1200 BCE, and various nations were destroyed or severely damaged: Alasiya (Cyprus), Ugarit (destroyed utterly), the Hittites (though, this may be connected with the Phrygians as well), Mitanni (probably connected with more Eastern forces), Mycenaean Greece, and so on. This occurred at the same time as the attacks on Egypt as recorded by Merneptah and Ramesses III, who make reference to attacks throughout the Eastern Mediterranean.

As for the ethno-linguistic affinities of the Philistines, the primary line of thinking (and arguably the largest amount of evidence) connects them with Mycenaean Greece. In terms of material remains, the earliest layers of Philistine settlement (about 1150BCE) possess pottery of a locally produced variety in the style of Late Helladic IIIC (contemporary Mycenaean) pottery. Linguistically, it's unclear what language the Philistines spoke, but of a handful of terms that survived, they can be reasonably related to Indo-European languages. The Sea Peoples as a whole show greatly varied affinities, some of the material culture is associated with Italic items of the time (weaponry and such), some with West Anatolian, and some even with Central Europe and the Black Sea (ship design). It is worth noting that some of the groups identified as Sea Peoples are mentioned prior to their involvement as Sea Peoples -- sometimes as mercenaries (Ramesses II employed some).

One of the interesting things with regard to the Sea Peoples phenomenon, which has been the subject of a recent theory, is how it relates to the Phoenicians. If you look at a map of the destruction associated with the Sea Peoples and the invasions of around 1200 BCE, there is a rather unexplained gap in Lebanon. To the South, you have the Philistines who settle along the coast, to the north Ugarit is destroyed, and conveniently, cities like Tyre and Sarepta (the best excavated Phoenician site) are untouched; interestingly, the Phoenician island city of Arwad, which had been conquered by the Hittites shortly before the invasion of the Sea Peoples is sacked and returned to Phoenician control at the time of the Sea Peoples. Regardless of whether or not the Sea Peoples were specifically involved with Phoenicia, the Phoenicians did benefit greatly from the elimination of Egyptian, Mycenaean, and Hittite power in the Mediterranean.

In short, there are a lot of theories and a great deal that is unclear about the Sea Peoples (though they are not entirely mysterious).




Thank you. :eek:

Damn, that's a lot of info! Sounds like you have studied a lot more of the recent research into this issue! A lot of my studies have been based on past research, which is probably outdated. So that was helpful knowledge. Cool.

Have to echo Colly's statement about your mind. Nice.
 
SEVERUSMAX said:
Damn, that's a lot of info! Sounds like you have studied a lot more of the recent research into this issue! A lot of my studies have been based on past research, which is probably outdated. So that was helpful knowledge. Cool.

Have to echo Colly's statement about your mind. Nice.

I have done a fair bit of recent research into, yes. This is how I spend a lot of my day (if only I could convince someone to pay me for it).

Thank you!
 
Equinoxe said:
I have done a fair bit of recent research into, yes. This is how I spend a lot of my day (if only I could convince someone to pay me for it).

Thank you!

Write a book, using the research.
 
Severus-- I never heard that economic revolt/civil war theory of the origin of the Hebrews, and it is pretty interesting. Certainly I think we agree that the Hebrews arose somehow out of Canaanite culture and the whole bible stoyr of the Exodus is pretty much fairy tale.

The last best theory I heard was that the early Hebrews were hill people who somehow usurped Canaanite civilization, whether by violent overthrow or infiltration, or more likely, a combination of both.

And you're right about the Philistines and Canaanites and my confusion. The biblical quote is from Judges 1:19, "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." The inhabitants of the valley were Canaanites, as you said, not Philistines. My error.

The Philistnes came later, of course with David, of course, and Old King Cole. (Wait a minute on that last part-- let me check my book)
 
dr_mabeuse said:
Severus-- I never heard that economic revolt/civil war theory of the origin of the Hebrews, and it is pretty interesting. Certainly I think we agree that the Hebrews arose somehow out of Canaanite culture and the whole bible stoyr of the Exodus is pretty much fairy tale.

The last best theory I heard was that the early Hebrews were hill people who somehow usurped Canaanite civilization, whether by violent overthrow or infiltration, or more likely, a combination of both.

And you're right about the Philistines and Canaanites and my confusion. The biblical quote is from Judges 1:19, "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." The inhabitants of the valley were Canaanites, as you said, not Philistines. My error.

The Philistnes came later, of course with David, of course, and Old King Cole. (Wait a minute on that last part-- let me check my book)

I think the Iron Age began long after the explosion on Santorini. It was like 1,000 to 800 BC. Apparently the Iron Age was a bad time all around, a time when many sophisticated civilizations fell.

Gosh, I find it so evocative to imagine sea traders and their cities in the Med 36 centuries ago! What a fascinating and romantic image.
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
Gosh, I find it so evocative to imagine sea traders and their cities in the Med 36 centuries ago! What a fascinating and romantic image.

I find the whole idea of prehistoric trade fascinating. We're so used to the idea of primitive people just fighting and making war that we totally ignore the part that trade played in their lives, a subject that's just now starting to be appreciated and investigated.

The American Indians apparently traded from coast to coast, and Pacific abalone shell has been found in the Mississippi Valley and turquoise fron New Mexico has been found in Canadian Indian jewelry. There was huge trade going on up and down the Mississippi river.

Not only that, but even the Neanderthals traded between the Mediterranean and central Europe. It seems like making a buck is as ingrained an instinct as making war, which is kind of a comforting thought.
 
Back
Top