Asking for it

[adrina]

There are a lot of things that people of all genders should be able to do in a perfect society- tell a cop without a body cam to go fuck himself, for instance. However, in the society we actually live in, they aren't prudent. In the abstract, I certainly favor women wearing sexy clothes or nothing at all in public, so I believe strongly that they should be perfectly safe doing so. Then I go to Walmart and I rethink my position...
Mating displays always carry risk. To say that a woman should take precautions for her own safety is not the same as saying she is 'asking to be raped,' if she wears a short skirt. She is, however, trying to attract the attention of potential sex partners, and ought to have a plan in case she attracts the attention of someone both undesirable and violent. It's not a matter of principle, it's just common sense.

So... women shouldn't dress sexy or attractively out of common sense. This is the takeaway from that. It's not prudent to dress in a manner that we feel is attractive. (Side note: women don't dress sexy only to attract men, sometimes we just like to feel sexy or attractive for ourselves.)

See this is the double edged sword of "of course not, but..."

The only reason the "mating displays" carry risk is because the rapists don't know it's not okay to rape.

 

[DrDelirium]

So... women shouldn't dress sexy or attractively out of common sense. This is the takeaway from that. It's not prudent to dress in a manner that we feel is attractive. (Side note: women don't dress sexy only to attract men, sometimes we just like to feel sexy or attractive for ourselves.)

See this is the double edged sword of "of course not, but..."

The only reason the "mating displays" carry risk is because the rapists don't know it's not okay to rape.

That's what you got from that? Robber's don't know it's okay not to rob, otherwise we wouldn't need locks. There's a moral principle, and then there's practical life. Traffic laws give the right of way to pedestrians. I still look both ways before crossing the street.
You certainly have the right to dress any way you want to. Nobody has the right to rape you. Nobody has the right to rob you. Take no precautions. It's your right not to. And the fact is, you probably will not have anything truly horrible happen most of the time. Go for it.

 

[adrina]

That's what you got from that? Robber's don't know it's okay not to rob, otherwise we wouldn't need locks. There's a moral principle, and then there's practical life. Traffic laws give the right of way to pedestrians. I still look both ways before crossing the street.
You certainly have the right to dress any way you want to. Nobody has the right to rape you. Nobody has the right to rob you. Take no precautions. It's your right not to. And the fact is, you probably will not have anything truly horrible happen most of the time. Go for it.

The problem with comparing rape to robbery or hit n runs or any other myriad crime is that the victim of the robbery or hit n run etc aren't held responsible for being the victim of the crime. Nor is the perpetrator pretty much guaranteed to not only not be prosecuted, but if so found not guilty.

Yes be cautious, be aware, take self defense... even lock the proverbial damn door. But be aware that no matter what you do, you will be blamed for your rape by the authorities and you will have almost no support by the law. Up to and including processing the evidence before it is destroyed.

See Pscyhe's and Bronzeage's posts.

1 in 5 women will be raped in the US.

Nearly 1 in 10 women experience it at the hands of their partner.

Those statistics scream that women taking precautions aren't enough.

 

[DrDelirium]

The problem with comparing rape to robbery or hit n runs or any other myriad crime is that the victim of the robbery or hit n run etc aren't held responsible for being the victim of the crime. Nor is the perpetrator pretty much guaranteed to not only not be prosecuted, but if so found not guilty.

Yes be cautious, be aware, take self defense... even lock the proverbial damn door. But be aware that no matter what you do, you will be blamed for your rape by the authorities and you will have almost no support by the law. Up to and including processing the evidence before it is destroyed.

See Pscyhe's and Bronzeage's posts.

1 in 5 women will be raped in the US.

Nearly 1 in 10 women experience it at the hands of their partner.

Those statistics scream that women taking precautions aren't enough.

That's a whole different issue than the OP.
On that global level, what do you propose? What's an appropriate response? I don't think that most men believe it's okay to rape women. Period. What do you propose about the men that do it anyway? What do you propose for the potential victims? That's the real issue, isn't it? What do you think would improve the situation?

 

[adrina]

That's a whole different issue than the OP.
On that global level, what do you propose? What's an appropriate response? I don't think that most men believe it's okay to rape women. Period. What do you propose about the men that do it anyway? What do you propose for the potential victims? That's the real issue, isn't it? What do you think would improve the situation?

Probably the number one thing to help stop rape is to catch the rapists which is done by processing the damn backlog of rape kits. Which also points to how law enforcement treats rape. When less than 10% of rapes are reported and of those reported, less than 5% end in a guilty verdict we have to look at how law enforcement and we as a society treat rape and rape victims.

And one of the first things we can do is stop saying "but" at the end of our discussions about rape.

Rape is bad. No buts.

Rape is not the victim's fault. No buts.

Rape is not caused by what a woman is wearing. No buts.

Rape is caused by a rapist raping. No buts.

 

[Noor]

Unless a woman walks up to you, says "Fuck me now, please" starts stripping and pulls you down, she is not asking for it. If she wants to stop and says so, then she is no longer asking for it.

 

[DrDelirium]

Probably the number one thing to help stop rape is to catch the rapists which is done by processing the damn backlog of rape kits. Which also points to how law enforcement treats rape. When less than 10% of rapes are reported and of those reported, less than 5% end in a guilty verdict we have to look at how law enforcement and we as a society treat rape and rape victims.

And one of the first things we can do is stop saying "but" at the end of our discussions about rape.

Rape is bad. No buts.

Rape is not the victim's fault. No buts.

Rape is not caused by what a woman is wearing. No buts.

Rape is caused by a rapist raping. No buts.

Of the two of us, you are the only one to use the 'b-word' in this discussion. I am entirely in favor of processing rape kits and jailing rapists. Law enforcement does have a problem prosecuting rapists. They also have a problem prosecuting armed robbers. They have a really bad problem prosecuting white collar criminals, especially mass-murdering politicians. It's almost as if 'law enforcement' agencies had a different purpose than enforcing the law. Like, oh, say, defending a system of privilege. Naah....

 

[adrina]

Of the two of us, you are the only one to use the 'b-word' in this discussion. I am entirely in favor of processing rape kits and jailing rapists. Law enforcement does have a problem prosecuting rapists. They also have a problem prosecuting armed robbers. They have a really bad problem prosecuting white collar criminals, especially mass-murdering politicians. It's almost as if 'law enforcement' agencies had a different purpose than enforcing the law. Like, oh, say, defending a system of privilege. Naah....

Technically you did. However = but.

I'm not wanting or trying to irritate an ally in the fiasco of how we as a society treat rape. I apologise if it seems like I am attacking you.

You asked how I believed we could change things. That is how I believe we can change things. Discussions regarding rape (and oddly abortion) always have the "yes but..." thing going on. It is beyond frustrating. Especially as I have witnessed many women I know battle the atrocities of being raped. Even the most well intentioned people can still dangle that but. I had to be educated about that from one of my friends - just how much damage that three letter word can do.

 

[Lancecastor]

Unless a woman walks up to you, says "Fuck me now, please" starts stripping and pulls you down, she is not asking for it.

Bullshit.

Women are the masters of non verbal and indirect communication.

They say "i want you to take me" in thousands of ways.

Or at least, actual women in real life do.

 

[stickygirl]

There is a hidden ‘but’ in the OP because women are encouraged through pretty much every media to show more flesh but to do it wisely. I’m not suggesting every Vogue spread or packet of nylons should carry a health warning “Showing too much flesh could get you assaulted” because every woman knows that risky dress and behaviour will attract more attention. What we can forget when our guard is down, is that a percentage of that attention will be coming from a person who interprets it as a personal invitation.
Unknown assailants are statiscally rare and the victim frequently knows the attacker. I didn’t actually say the woman was raped, partly because it raises this whole other tranch of discussion which is an open and shut case and we just end up arguing over which body part is removed…
What do we tell our teenage daughters? I’m sure the advice runs like this “Be independent ( but don’t undermine your boss )” “Wear whatever you like ( but never go out alone )” “Go on the pill ( but make him use a condom anyway )”. So as always, our aspirations must always be tempered by common sense. It’s a jungle out there so don’t dress as the meal.

 

[Lancecastor]

Unknown assailants are statiscally rare and the victim frequently knows the attacker.

Exactly.

Actual rape is very rare....faux after the fact nonconsent (buyers regret) is what most media and feminist orgs call "rape".

 

[DrDelirium]

Technically you did. However = but.

I'm not wanting or trying to irritate an ally in the fiasco of how we as a society treat rape. I apologise if it seems like I am attacking you.

You asked how I believed we could change things. That is how I believe we can change things. Discussions regarding rape (and oddly abortion) always have the "yes but..." thing going on. It is beyond frustrating. Especially as I have witnessed many women I know battle the atrocities of being raped. Even the most well intentioned people can still dangle that but. I had to be educated about that from one of my friends - just how much damage that three letter word can do.

I'll give you 'however.' BUT- It isn't possible to have a conversation about complex ideas without conjunctions. 'But' also = 'and.' Rape is, in real life, a complex issue. Reducing it to "Rape bad. Period." does nothing to solve the problem.
Both my professional and personal lives have had a lot of focus on helping people. I have learned in the process that it's largely futile to help people who won't help themselves. I'm willing to assign 100% of the MORAL responsibility of rape to rapists, a stance, btw, that relieves me of it. I think that practical responsibility is more widely distributed. Conflating the moral responsibility of rape with assuming some responsibility for self-protection is self-defeating.
It is all very well to complain about having a burden of self-defense, but in a world where threats exist, those that don't assume any of this burden are entirely dependent on others. This hardly seems like a sound feminist position. In fact, it would seem to justify old-school patriarchal control.
To take the politics of gender out of it for a moment, there was a gentleman recently who thought that he could live among wild bears. They ate him. Rather predictably, I might add. It's difficult to frame a wild bear eating a dumbass as a moral issue, but on a pragmatic level, the responsibility belonged entirely to the meal.
Rape is a much more complex issue. It's not always possible to tell who the bears are until it's too late. Pretending there are no bears, though, is not helpful.

 

[latecomer91364]

No matter how she's dressed or what she does, a woman is never 'asking for it' unless she verbally asks for it. Period. Plain and simple.

 

[neci]

I'll give you 'however.' BUT- It isn't possible to have a conversation about complex ideas without conjunctions. 'But' also = 'and.' Rape is, in real life, a complex issue. Reducing it to "Rape bad. Period." does nothing to solve the problem.
Both my professional and personal lives have had a lot of focus on helping people. I have learned in the process that it's largely futile to help people who won't help themselves. I'm willing to assign 100% of the MORAL responsibility of rape to rapists, a stance, btw, that relieves me of it. I think that practical responsibility is more widely distributed. Conflating the moral responsibility of rape with assuming some responsibility for self-protection is self-defeating.
It is all very well to complain about having a burden of self-defense, but in a world where threats exist, those that don't assume any of this burden are entirely dependent on others. This hardly seems like a sound feminist position. In fact, it would seem to justify old-school patriarchal control.
To take the politics of gender out of it for a moment, there was a gentleman recently who thought that he could live among wild bears. They ate him. Rather predictably, I might add. It's difficult to frame a wild bear eating a dumbass as a moral issue, but on a pragmatic level, the responsibility belonged entirely to the meal.
Rape is a much more complex issue. It's not always possible to tell who the bears are until it's too late. Pretending there are no bears, though, is not helpful.

rape is not a complex issue. if there is no consent, it is rape.
yes. we can teach our daughters how to protect themselves, how to stay in groups, how to look after each other. we can teach our boys that no is no, we can teach them respect, we can teach them to watch out for those that give men a bad name. there are things we can do to combat rape culture, but rape is actually a very simple concept. it is the basic violation of a person's right to sovereignty. Women/men are not meals in clubs or off the street to be taken as pleased and devoured without consent. Period.

 

[Iamsubmissive]

I'm going to give what will probably not be a very well received opinion but it feels like common sense, to me at least. Although there is a such thing as cause and effect. The cause isn't always intentional. The effect isn't always the predicted response. Using logic to come up with a hypothesis don't always gets you close to the correct result. You have to factor in all the elements in a particular situation, many of which aren't often known.

Does a woman in a slutty outfit have a higher chance of being raped than a woman wearing conservative attire? Depends. Does the potential rapist have a fetish for miniskirts and high heels or does he like the girl next door type? Does he want revenge on his abusive librarian mother? Does the location of the encounter offer the opportunity for the rapist to commit the crime? Logically, you can avoid danger if you are aware of it. But chances are there are numerous threats you have no way of knowing about.

A rapist isn't a man or woman taking cues from his/her victim. A rapist is a rapist on their own accord...doesn't matter what someone else does, says, or wears.

That being said, a woman should be able to wear whatever makes her feel good about herself. But stereotypes do exist, so it shouldn't be shocking if you dress provocatively and then receive some kind of attention. The other downfall of stereotypes is that some women think they have to dress a certain way to get that attention. You can be sexy and alluring without revealing clothing, and without purposefully attracting the wrong kind of attention. But if you feel good 'being you' in skimpy outfits...go for it. Be comfortable with who you are, how you're dressed, and ignore all the opinions or advances of stupid people.

 

[trysail]

Fact:

There are bad people in the world. Be forewarned and prepared.
(Please don't shoot the messenger)
​

​

 

[Lancecastor]

neci et al should start wearing the hijab so they don't get raped (by a white guy).

 

[IrezumiKiss]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/00/39/fc/0039fc9131e0e62bfd927353318a9cc2--crime-stop-it.jpg

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

There are a lot of things that people of all genders should be able to do in a perfect society- tell a cop without a body cam to go fuck himself, for instance.

If only. I'm with you on this. Mass incarceration of black men is not okay.

I am entirely in favor of processing rape kits and jailing rapists. Law enforcement does have a problem prosecuting rapists. They also have a problem prosecuting armed robbers. They have a really bad problem prosecuting white collar criminals, especially mass-murdering politicians. It's almost as if 'law enforcement' agencies had a different purpose than enforcing the law. Like, oh, say, defending a system of privilege. Naah....

I'm with you on this. Dismantling racist, oppressive systems is important.

I'm willing to assign 100% of the MORAL responsibility of rape to rapists, a stance, btw, that relieves me of it. I think that practical responsibility is more widely distributed.

I enjoyed reading this conversation between you and Adrina, and I'm glad stickygirl asked the question. (A brave question, for sure.)

I'm also glad you mentioned privilege and personal responsibility because it has me thinking more about how we (everyone) can approach rape and rape prevention as a shared responsibility.

Intentional within-group conversations have the potential to make real progress, I think, particularly in their ability to raise awareness of harmful beliefs/attitudes and hold each other accountable to do better.

I'm not saying we all need to host a workshop or anything. I just think there are a lot of everyday opportunities when issues are raised (friends/family/coworkers make remarks, insults, jokes, etc...) when we can have that awkward, uncomfortable but necessary conversation and maybe influence the attitude and behavior of someone close enough to us to value our input/opinion.

In the same way white people discussing race and privilege with other white people is a good way to dismantle racism and white supremacy, men talking with other men about consent and coersion and rape is a good way to prevent rape and dismantle sexism.

Women and brown people (and immigrants, the poor, LGBTQIA) are more vulnerable in many ways because the (imperfect) world we live in puts some groups more at risk than others. I think the world is a better place when we each willingly accept personal responsibility for the safety/protection of others, and it seems to me you were maybe implying or saying something along those lines.

So, yeah. Good talk. Thank you, everyone. I enjoyed reading this and thinking more about it very much.

 

[stickygirl]

Thanks for picking up on the point of shared responsibility, because in a half-decent society, and I suspect written in the US constitution, is a requirement for every person to take responsibility for the well-being and safety of others, since we are all members of that society. Our political leaders and those who administer the law are the instruments of that collective responsibility.

I'm always using anecdotes for illustration ( not always successfully ) but I can think of numerous instances when I was in the company of men and hearing what was said - about women, about rape... the infamous 'locker room talk'. I am have been in a questionably privileged position in being witness to it: the perfect fly on the wall, and often what I heard made me sick to the core.

It's not easy to speak up and take issue with a joke in bad taste, or to defend homophobic or racist views, because the mood can quickly turn against you. It's not easy, but always worth doing, because nearly always when the group disperses, someone will come up and thank you.

 

[DrDelirium]

If only. I'm with you on this. Mass incarceration of black men is not okay.



I'm with you on this. Dismantling racist, oppressive systems is important.



I enjoyed reading this conversation between you and Adrina, and I'm glad stickygirl asked the question. (A brave question, for sure.)

I'm also glad you mentioned privilege and personal responsibility because it has me thinking more about how we (everyone) can approach rape and rape prevention as a shared responsibility.

Intentional within-group conversations have the potential to make real progress, I think, particularly in their ability to raise awareness of harmful beliefs/attitudes and hold each other accountable to do better.

I'm not saying we all need to host a workshop or anything. I just think there are a lot of everyday opportunities when issues are raised (friends/family/coworkers make remarks, insults, jokes, etc...) when we can have that awkward, uncomfortable but necessary conversation and maybe influence the attitude and behavior of someone close enough to us to value our input/opinion.

In the same way white people discussing race and privilege with other white people is a good way to dismantle racism and white supremacy, men talking with other men about consent and coersion and rape is a good way to prevent rape and dismantle sexism.

Women and brown people (and immigrants, the poor, LGBTQIA) are more vulnerable in many ways because the (imperfect) world we live in puts some groups more at risk than others. I think the world is a better place when we each willingly accept personal responsibility for the safety/protection of others, and it seems to me you were maybe implying or saying something along those lines.

So, yeah. Good talk. Thank you, everyone. I enjoyed reading this and thinking more about it very much.

I have nothing against shared responsibility, but a lot depends on how the sharing is done. I don't think that, in the original scenario, I have any moral responsibility. I don't think that I have any pragmatic responsibility either unless I'm in a position to alter something in the scenario- for instance, escort the girl home. But I have no responsibility if she refuses. If people won't accept some responsibility for their own safety, they can't pass the burden on to others.
As someone who has intervened in similar situations, and intervened when guys were getting bullied, I have to tell you that such interventions are not without risk. Nor are they always welcome. I have had several painful experiences of both kinds.
I think we all accept the idea that there can be negative consequences for risky behavior, and in most instances we talk about Darwin Awards and have very little sympathy when it goes bad. I think there is a lot of extra heat regarding rape because our society has massive unresolved conflicts regarding the intersection of personal responsibility, freedom of choice and simultaneous sexual license and a deep strain of Puritanism. I don't expect this to get sorted out any time soon, and in the meantime I advise those I care about to behave prudently.

 

[stickygirl]

I have nothing against shared responsibility, but a lot depends on how the sharing is done. I don't think that, in the original scenario, I have any moral responsibility. I don't think that I ...snipped...
the intersection of personal responsibility, freedom of choice and simultaneous sexual license and a deep strain of Puritanism. I don't expect this to get sorted out any time soon, and in the meantime I advise those I care about to behave prudently.

The way you've presented your point makes it sound as if you wash your hands not just of the responsibility, but your conscience too, which I'm sure is not the case because you sound like a decent man.
Surely no one could be unaffected, nor wish this or that had happened when news of an assault on someone at the same party is reported the next day? Of course idle speculation is fruitless, but don't we all react to the news with some empathy? As others have alluded, life is never simple and no one plans to be assaulted: we do what we feel will mitigate the risks. For instance if the offer of an escort home was refused by a woman who was clearly the worse for drink, then you might ignore the refusal, knowing that he or she was putting themselves in danger.

 

[Tigersman]

The guy's attitude is a clear reflection about how he was raised. He was being a total asshole.

 

[DrDelirium]

The way you've presented your point makes it sound as if you wash your hands not just of the responsibility, but your conscience too, which I'm sure is not the case because you sound like a decent man.
Surely no one could be unaffected, nor wish this or that had happened when news of an assault on someone at the same party is reported the next day? Of course idle speculation is fruitless, but don't we all react to the news with some empathy? As others have alluded, life is never simple and no one plans to be assaulted: we do what we feel will mitigate the risks. For instance if the offer of an escort home was refused by a woman who was clearly the worse for drink, then you might ignore the refusal, knowing that he or she was putting themselves in danger.

Feeling empathy doesn't have anything to do with 'conscience' or responsibility. That would be 'guilt.' When I say I don't feel responsible, it doesn't stop me from feeling empathy with someone's pain when something bad happens to them.
Intervening with people who don't want help is often problematic. It's hard to imagine a scenario in which I would force a drunk stranger into my car against her will. And a sober woman who thinks she 'should' be able to walk down the street alone in the middle of the night? How would that work out?
People have the right to do dangerous, foolish and self-destructive things, and they exercise that right pretty frequently. A lot of those exercises involve sex, oddly enough.

 

[Beth87]

honestly the idea that material or skin cells can COMPEL or otherwise force a man to rape someone is simply ridiculous. Rapists rape end of. decent human beings can go around not raping people and they do it without having to think...no i must not rape today. its not a great ordeal for them to avoid raping.

whether a woman (in this example) is raped because she is wearing a bikini or because she is dressed like a nun depends entirely on the rapist themselves. Some men rape women who wear very little because they can get away with it...people blame the victim for not wearing bin bag to hide her body. Other men rape women who dress modestly because this offends them. This woman obviously thinks shes better than everyone else or is uptight, i must destroy this woman.

ive been raped for asking for it with my short skirt and sexy smile. Ive been raped because if a guy walks me home so i feel safe, sex should be his reward. Ive also been raped because i needed taking down a peg for being too frigid. FYI if a guy is saying a girl is frigid because she rejects him...he acknowledges she HAS rejected him. This completely rules out any prior flirting because he knows she doesnt consent to sex.

This stuff is so fecking simple i dont get why we keep having to have these discussions. Is she actively consenting and legally able to consent? no? thats rape