As close to a rant as I get

[Croctden]

You know I’ve noticed an inordinate number of people ranting about people with other views on BDSM (not here). Those who only submit in the bedroom blast full time slaves and vice versa. Those who insist on intense serious relationships frown on those who are casual or polysexual. Extreme Doms get ripped by other Doms. Switches seem to be especially popular targets. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard someone say you can’t be a “real” dominant if you also submit. Did I miss a meeting? Is there a rulebook somewhere? I bet being spanked by a switch feels pretty similar.

This level of intolerance annoys me to no end. With most of the vanilla world pooh-poohing our lifestyle and a sizable percentage of them wanting us arrested or thinking we need psychological help, to mock others for liking a different variety of this wide world we call BDSM kills me. Many could do to remember that no matter what you like, most people like something else. I would like to think that encountering bigotry would make those in the lifestyle less inclined to lash out in fear and anger at those they disagree with or don’t understand.

 

[Marquis]

No tolerance for intolerance?

How closed-minded.

 

[tealsphynx]

I agree that the BDSM community should be more tollerant of it's own members. We need to remember that there are lots of things (activities and such) that are encircled by the term BDSM and that not everything works the same for everyone. We have a member in a group we're a part of that believes BDSM is only as defined by the Old Leather society (god I hope everyone knows what I'm talking about...I could look it up if I need to) And she would sit and lecture about how we're all doing wrong. She especially thought that I, as a young Domme, needed to learn to be harder, to find my badass self. That were I to continue being so soft with my sub I would never find success in the world of Dom/mes, that I wouldn't be respected. I've found the "sweet until you get to know Me" works just fine for me. Adds a psychological edge to subbie. yes I tend to forhet when punishment is needed, but then again he's a little pain slut, so I can't beat him as punishment and I haven't found what I like completely.
I view BDSM like a big buffetm so everyone should stop complaining about what everyone else is getting and enjoy!

 

[rhev]

Untill my current partner, I was never into any bdsm at all. Now, I love it. Would people criticize me for my lack of experience? I doubt my slave would say that I am anything but an exceptional master, I give her what she wants and what she needs.

Peopole who criticise like you say are just impatient fucks that should never have made the comment in the first place.
(yes I realize that was a criticism, but hypocricy is a bitch aint it?)

 

[chris9]

...Old Leather society (god I hope everyone knows what I'm talking about...I could look it up if I need to)...

Please do, I have no idea what you are talking about But then Lit is the only place I go online or off in a BDSM context...

 

[jasonlf]

No tolerance for intolerance?

How closed-minded.

Hah. I'm soooo going to use that.

 

[Marquis]

There is something to be said for camaradarie among those with various kinks, but I refuse to take that to the point where I can't hold an opinion that something is wrong.

I'm reminded of a time when NAMBLA wanted to march in an all-inclusive gay parade and were surprised to find themselves without support.

Some truly bizarre things are done under the flag of BDSM at times. I consider myself very open-minded, but while I am comfortable with BDSM being the red-light district of sexualities I am not ok with it being the ghetto. I think we all owe it to ourselves to as members of the community to be both tolerant and opinionated.

 

[Marquis]

Hah. I'm soooo going to use that.

You already took my av, you're stealing my catch phrases too now!

 

[TaintedB]

Switches seem to be especially popular targets. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard someone say you can’t be a “real” dominant if you also submit.

That's the trouble with talking about sex, something so deeply personal. They probably actually mean "You can't be a real (which means safe, good, satisfying, whatever) dominant to ME." Which is a perfect legitimate thing to say. We all have a right to like what we like for ourselves. Unfortunately, people have a very strong tendency to generalize without even realizing they are doing so: if it's not right for ME, it's not right for ANYBODY. That's why I think the whole idea of considering a group of very different people a community simply because they like to fuck similarly is a ludicous one and bound to failure. Stick a bunch of people together from all walks of life and backgrounds and classes and ages together and if the only thing they have in common with each other is they all love "69'ing," but they IMAGINE that they are a cohesive community with similar goals and outlooks and they expect to all get along splendidly because they all 69, and you will get a roomful of people bitterly fighting with one another as they realize (although not consciously) that they the thing they have most in common are their differences. Same is true of bdsm. Do all of this online as well and the acrimony will be ten times as strong due to the way hiding behind a computer screen and not getting real-life feedback (facial expressions, voice tones) disinhibits people. Socializing online is often worse than being in a bar full of bad drunks. :/

So anyway, because of this tendency to generalize personal preferences and beliefs, various BDSM "communities" will always outlaw some activities as something nobody should do and reward or praise other activities as the good ones that everybody, no matter what their personal preferences and ideas, should do (example: safe, sane, consensual) simply becasue those activities accord with what most members personally approve of or are not scared of. One thing I've noticed from watching bdsm communities online and off, is that, if there is any freedom to them, if they are not completely shutdown and censored or presided over with extreme emotional tyrany, they tend to have strong disagreements among members and then to splinter. Then the splinters splinter. And so on. The censored groups splinter too, but it's usually because of ugly covert actions, private vendettas, whisper campaigns, and the like. This is not the type of thing that turns me on sexually, to put it mildly, which is why I don't like to be a part of any sort of "community" action. It's sooo ugly and it has nothing to do with why people original go together in the first place: to share their sexual enthusiasms.

Back to your original point, Croctden, if you can think of what these people say as not representing anything generically true, just people doing what they always do: generalizing deeply personal desires or attitudes, sometimes even fears, then it becomes easier to accept. After all, despire the fact that there are tons of people who don't like 69 and, if they find themselves in the right forum, might be quite vocal about that point, that doesn't stop the people who get off on it from doing it and enjoying themselves immensely.

So why should what some stranger think about the way you do sex bother you? The very best thing to do if you're sensitive to others' opinions, IMO, is to avoid online communities that talk about sex like the plague. When people start to talk about sex, they go a little insane, IMO.

But that is not the greatest advice because it doesn't take into account that people are lonely, and with our insane weird stressed-out lifestyles, the online thing meets important socializing needs that we don't have the time to get filled in a more leisurly fashion. Probably the best you can do is not hang out in the places that seem particularly hostile to your way of doing sex, or particularly hostile in general. That way you won't be feeling unhappy or pissed off all the time because of what some meaningless stranger whom you'll never meet said. That can be hard to do too, if you already feel that you "belong" there, which is why it's a good idea to lurk someplace for a long time first and then to quickly leave at the fist indication of something really obnoxious to you, like an intoleance for switches.

While it's all very interesting, in some ways I really hate the internet for the way it's made people feel compelled to talk about sex. Every time they do so they run into other people who don't like their ideas or practices and someone ends up feeling bad. On the other hand, via the internet you can occasionally make a lasting friendships with interesting and compatible people you otherwise would never have met. It's a two-edged sword.

 

[YinandYang]

Hmmm I think the less we let our Ego's take over...the better life will be. Each to there own and no judgements.

 

[TaintedB]

We have a member in a group we're a part of that believes BDSM is only as defined by the Old Leather society (god I hope everyone knows what I'm talking about...I could look it up if I need to) And she would sit and lecture about how we're all doing wrong.

That is a "type" you are describing. There's almost always one in every bdsm group. What I find privately hilarious about that type is that usually their ideas about the "good old (guard) days" are horribly inaccurate from a historical perspective. What they imagine about the so called "old guard" ways is nothing at all like what they were actually like. People who weren't there living through that time and with those people (which means most non-male non-homosexual non-WWII-veterans under 60 or 65--practically all of us!) tend to horribly distort that small old leather-motorcyle bar-and-macho-military fetish community with romantic mytholoizations that serve their egos by making them look "hardcore" because they "know" (haha) all about the "old guard." What drek!

For those who don't know about the old guard, try to find a scholarly, non-scene book about the phenomena. _Different Loving: the world of sexual dominance and submission_ had a decent, well-researched chapter about this, but it's short, too short if the subject really interests you. A full book on the subject (again, stay away from the scene authors and scene presses if you want historical reality and not fantasy!) would be much more informative.

 

[TaintedB]

Hmmm I think the less we let our Ego's take over...the better life will be. Each to there own and no judgements.

I think not judging others is impossible if you are human (although you can always deny that you judge others. lol!). But expressing those judgements is another matter: that is entirely within every non-psychotic person's control (it's even within a lot of psychotics' control), whether they believe so or not.

 

[~hellbaby~]

You know I’ve noticed an inordinate number of people ranting about people with other views on BDSM (not here). Those who only submit in the bedroom blast full time slaves and vice versa. Those who insist on intense serious relationships frown on those who are casual or polysexual. Extreme Doms get ripped by other Doms. Switches seem to be especially popular targets. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard someone say you can’t be a “real” dominant if you also submit. Did I miss a meeting? Is there a rulebook somewhere? I bet being spanked by a switch feels pretty similar.

This level of intolerance annoys me to no end. With most of the vanilla world pooh-poohing our lifestyle and a sizable percentage of them wanting us arrested or thinking we need psychological help, to mock others for liking a different variety of this wide world we call BDSM kills me. Many could do to remember that no matter what you like, most people like something else. I would like to think that encountering bigotry would make those in the lifestyle less inclined to lash out in fear and anger at those they disagree with or don’t understand.

Have they been acting up over at dom sub friends again??

 

[O'Mac]

I think the problem is more deep-rooted than perhaps some people would think. I've seen it happen so many times before with different issues, but similar reactions. Some individuals refuse to accept valid disagreement, and instead feel that they should somehow be insulted because others have some the narrow-minded opinion of them and their lifestyle.

I've seen it hapen so many times, and I've been in those sort of situations before. It's stupid knee-jerk reactions that people get into because (as YingandYang mentioned) they let their Egos get ahead of them.

Don't agree with the gay/lesbian lifestyle? You're a homophobe.

Don't want to partake in BDSM outside the bedroom? You're a gutless prude.

Find a distaste for multiple partners? Well, it's obvious you hate polyamorous people.

How did disagreement or non-participation turn into some sort of affront to people's sensibilities? Again, I've found little of these attitudes on the forums here, but they are prevelant elsewhere both online and in the real world.

 

[Masters_aphrodite]

my kink is not your kink

i like to think to each his or her own. i realize that my kink is not necessarily someone else's and in turn theirs may not be mine. i think if everyone would just remember that it would be so simple.

Yes there are a lot of people with their own definitions and those definitions may not agree with others, i am sure we all have them. What it boils down to, for me, is i really do not care what anyone thinks of me except Master. If someone thinks the way Master uses me is wrong or disgusting etc i could really care less. If someone thinks i am not real or less than, etc. still i could care less. i am Master's slave and His opinion is the one that matters.

 

[serijules]

I'll admit to being one that is extremely intolerant of those that are intolerant. heh...

Seriously though, I'm not into labels, but anyone that goes around with an attitude on their shoulders and makes comments about who is a "true" slave or how you can't be "real" if you switch or how poly is a "fantasy"....those are the types that *I* lable as posers in the scene and not real dom/sub/switch/slave/whatever. That probably makes me a hypocrite, but oh well.

 

[tumbledown]

As a newbie, one of the reasons I am limiting my exploration online is just that - I have already run into so many "shoulds". So many rules and expectations. I've never regarded anyone else's mode of sexuality as a model for my own and I'm not about to start now. Yes, I'm curious and love to learn about how others live their sexual lives, and desire connection with others similarly inclined, but I turn away when I see the lists of rules and strict definitions start to appear. I don't really understand why all the strife, but I just wanna do my own thing so I have to let it pass me by.

 

[esclave_PP]

As a newbie, one of the reasons I am limiting my exploration online is just that - I have already run into so many "shoulds". So many rules and expectations. I've never regarded anyone else's mode of sexuality as a model for my own and I'm not about to start now. Yes, I'm curious and love to learn about how others live their sexual lives, and desire connection with others similarly inclined, but I turn away when I see the lists of rules and strict definitions start to appear. I don't really understand why all the strife, but I just wanna do my own thing so I have to let it pass me by.

What a good point you make. Sometimes rules are arbitrary and sometimes they are there for a reason. Things like checklists are really important as a tool for communication between a Dominant and a submissive. Safe words, if decided to be used, are important for safety reasons. There are many positive examples of "rules" but these rules are usually between the couple. I actually abhor rules, I'm a libertarian, and I can't stand when big groups of people tell me what to do. Master is an exception of course I think that conformity is at the base of this discussion. How much do we wish to conform to a norm -- is BDSM considered a norm? That's for a whole other discussion. But my point is this, in your exploration, in our own journeys we have to do what is right for ourselves. If someone doesn't like it, F them. We are all individuals and deserve to express ourselves how we deem fit. I think in our society, people have this compulsive need to please others with their behavior. Fuck that. Be yourself. Only way to be.

 

[WriterDom]

Richard can tell you about the good old days. My history is short, 8 years or so, and I can’t speak to what bdsm used to be. My impression is today there are no rules. Or, perhaps, a better way to put it, is that everyone writes their own rule book. There are bdsm communities, but there is no bdsm community.

More often than not, when you see Doms strutting around like roosters asserting that their way is the only way, there are hens, and all that is needed is the perception of their being hens, lurking in the background waiting to mate with the winner(in the Doms' minds).

It’s just one big cockfight, and who needs all that drama when it can be avoided.

Suppose for a moment, instead of BDSM, there were people who knew about sex, when most others didn’t or if they did, believed it was wrong. Call it SFSN. Sucking Fucking Sixty Nine. You’d probably have a subgroup who believed that only they were sucking and fucking correctly. And it might be true that someone who has sucked and fucked for 30 years does it better than a virgin. It doesn’t mean the virgin should be put down. Just means their adventure is just beginning.

And a bisexual could be the SFSN equivalent of a switch. A male bisexual would probably get a lot more grief in American society than a switch ever would. And I’m not making a judgement, just stating a fact. Can you see 5 football players going out on the town after a win and one asking to be dropped off at the gay bar? It probably wouldn’t go over very well with his teammates.

And before you flame, I don't have a problem with switches, subs, gays or bi, or scat rats. What you do in the bedroom is your business.

 

[MasterNico]

I figure it this way, I'd be a real hypocrit if I gave anyone grief over thier kink.

 

[Croctden]

I don't mind saying "X" is not for me, but the self-righteousness of some. I recognize human nature is to denigrate anyone who seems different no matter how similar they really are, but it still annoys me.

Different personalities is a different issue. I've run into plenty of people involved in BDSM who I just don't like. That's going to be the case in any community. I just wrote this after finding some subs going on and on amongst themselves about lame switches are. I'm not a switch, but give me a break.

Maybe I just need to curl up with a good book by myself more.

 

[serijules]

Different personalities is a different issue. I've run into plenty of people involved in BDSM who I just don't like. That's going to be the case in any community. I just wrote this after finding some subs going on and on amongst themselves about lame switches are. I'm not a switch, but give me a break.

I have gotten to the point where I don't really call myself bi-sexual anymore because of this example, but calling myself a lesbian is not really very accurate. *shrugs*

 

[Miss Pants]

There is something to be said for camaradarie among those with various kinks, but I refuse to take that to the point where I can't hold an opinion that something is wrong.
<snip>

Some truly bizarre things are done under the flag of BDSM at times. I consider myself very open-minded, but while I am comfortable with BDSM being the red-light district of sexualities I am not ok with it being the ghetto. I think we all owe it to ourselves to as members of the community to be both tolerant and opinionated.

Well. I've been lurking here for a few months, and I have learned alot. I've spent many late nights reading the library (so that no one will send me there when I finally come out to play!). And I figured eventually I would. Come out to play, that is. I thought I'd ask a bazillion questions once I got started.

But instead I feel compelled to respond to the Marquis' statement. Particularly, "we all owe it to ourselves to as members of the community to be both tolerant and opinionated." Beautifully and succinctly put.

I don't really have anything to add to that, except to express my appreciation for an open and discriminating mind. I just couldn't let it pass without comment.

Now, I'm off to begin putting words to some of the questions that I have.

Always Curious,
Miss Pants

 

[Netzach]

That is a "type" you are describing. There's almost always one in every bdsm group. What I find privately hilarious about that type is that usually their ideas about the "good old (guard) days" are horribly inaccurate from a historical perspective. What they imagine about the so called "old guard" ways is nothing at all like what they were actually like. People who weren't there living through that time and with those people (which means most non-male non-homosexual non-WWII-veterans under 60 or 65--practically all of us!) tend to horribly distort that small old leather-motorcyle bar-and-macho-military fetish community with romantic mytholoizations that serve their egos by making them look "hardcore" because they "know" (haha) all about the "old guard." What drek!

For those who don't know about the old guard, try to find a scholarly, non-scene book about the phenomena. _Different Loving: the world of sexual dominance and submission_ had a decent, well-researched chapter about this, but it's short, too short if the subject really interests you. A full book on the subject (again, stay away from the scene authors and scene presses if you want historical reality and not fantasy!) would be much more informative.

The few people I know who were actually there then and the more than few people I know who were trained by people who were there are probably the most open minded, sexually deviantly playful, and relaxed about all this stuff that I know in the scene. Yes, there is a time and a place for serious protocol, but they know that not everyone is going to follow the same ones and be trained in the same way. They weren't then, they sure aren't now.

 

[Netzach]

Don't agree with the gay/lesbian lifestyle? You're a homophobe.

Don't want to partake in BDSM outside the bedroom? You're a gutless prude.

Find a distaste for multiple partners? Well, it's obvious you hate polyamorous people.

I agree this is problematic if it's a simple question of personal taste. When someone starts actively trying to fuck things up for me BASED on their personal taste is when the defenses start to come out, and in my mind, should.