CelestialBody
Starlet of India
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2000
- Posts
- 7,904
Arrest Info Here.
- Thread starter lavender
- Start date
shadowsource
A Flash In The Pain
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2001
- Posts
- 1,664
Folks -
The fascists are loose among us. By noon on Tuesday, people were on TV telling us we'd have to give up our civil liberties, and they sounded as if they couldn't wait to see that happen. Well, I don't agree, and I daresay no self-avowed libertarian (left, right, or center) from this board will agree. Sure we can surrender our "right" to carry knives on planes, to fly as cheaply, to board faster. But we don't have to lose our American rights because some foreign fuckheads attacked us - or because some homegrown fuckheads want to murder people among us. These rights truly distinguish us as a culture, as a nation, and as a people. And I think UncleBill will hold my hand on this one: We can and will fight these assholes with whatever it takes, but we will not throw out our rights as citizens in the process.
The Mr.Bates's among us don't care about anyone's rights. Last night, the cops and FBI apprehended a bunch of highly suspicious people at NYC airports. One of them had a visa for his cousin, who lives in a Boston building in which some of the hijackers were staying. The FBI has announced that there is NO connection. Mr.Bates would have lynched the poor bastard. I'm proud that I can still believe that no one will be murdered during the wave of hatred that's sweeping the country.
The fascists are loose among us. By noon on Tuesday, people were on TV telling us we'd have to give up our civil liberties, and they sounded as if they couldn't wait to see that happen. Well, I don't agree, and I daresay no self-avowed libertarian (left, right, or center) from this board will agree. Sure we can surrender our "right" to carry knives on planes, to fly as cheaply, to board faster. But we don't have to lose our American rights because some foreign fuckheads attacked us - or because some homegrown fuckheads want to murder people among us. These rights truly distinguish us as a culture, as a nation, and as a people. And I think UncleBill will hold my hand on this one: We can and will fight these assholes with whatever it takes, but we will not throw out our rights as citizens in the process.
The Mr.Bates's among us don't care about anyone's rights. Last night, the cops and FBI apprehended a bunch of highly suspicious people at NYC airports. One of them had a visa for his cousin, who lives in a Boston building in which some of the hijackers were staying. The FBI has announced that there is NO connection. Mr.Bates would have lynched the poor bastard. I'm proud that I can still believe that no one will be murdered during the wave of hatred that's sweeping the country.
Oliver Clozoff
SirRealism
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2000
- Posts
- 7,468
How about the Geneva convention? As horrible as war is, modern times have brought us the idea that various behaviors are indeed beyond an acceptable limit of inhumanity. For example there are very specific rules concerning the treatment of POW's by their captors.
Obviously, though, we're not dealing with an enemy that recognizes such the legitimacy of such rules. In their minds there is no doubt of the justice and rightness of their cause as well as the utter depravity of their enemies. What makes Western philosophy superior is that we're skeptical.
We in America might think our values are better than theirs, but I'm certainly not convinced enough of the ultimate justice of my guiding principles of Christianity, democracy, and the western intellectual tradition to blindly decide that those that think differently from me need to die. Yeah, I believe American society is superior to Osama bin Laden's, but you know what? Maybe it's not. Maybe his IS better. But despite that opinion, I'm definitely not so convinced that I feel the need to kill myself and others to show the world the rightness of my beliefs. I never give up that necessary kernel of self-doubt.
What will make this struggle so difficult is that this isn't a battle against any obviously targeted group. Past wars have been against nations or alliances of nations. This will be a war against an ideology, a set of values - specifically that set of values that holds that acts of terrorism are justified by a "right" cause.
I'm not exactly sure how a "war" as we think of war now could ever serve to resolve such an ideological conflict. As Roger/Alex rightly pointed out on another thread, we have to be VERY careful to avoid giving the appearance of waging a war on Islam. As it should be more than obvious, religious belief it is a motivation for resistance and bloodshed unlike any other. Holy wars are the worst conflicts imaginable.
We need to remain true to our values of belief in rule of law. The Constitution has served us very well so far. There's no need to abandon it now. Certainly war has led to certain abrogation of Constitutional freedoms in the past. Lincoln suspended the right to writ of habeous corpus and some other basic individual rights we hold dear during the Civil War and he is still regarded as the greatest and most just President in our history. I can live with bending some of the rules in order to carry out the unpleasant task of war, but breaking them is out of the question.
I regard a chief justification of this conflict to be an assertion to every person in the world that basic human rights must be recognized by all. In order to convince those who obviously don't believe such an idea, we have to "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk".
Get that posse-justice shit outta here.
Obviously, though, we're not dealing with an enemy that recognizes such the legitimacy of such rules. In their minds there is no doubt of the justice and rightness of their cause as well as the utter depravity of their enemies. What makes Western philosophy superior is that we're skeptical.
We in America might think our values are better than theirs, but I'm certainly not convinced enough of the ultimate justice of my guiding principles of Christianity, democracy, and the western intellectual tradition to blindly decide that those that think differently from me need to die. Yeah, I believe American society is superior to Osama bin Laden's, but you know what? Maybe it's not. Maybe his IS better. But despite that opinion, I'm definitely not so convinced that I feel the need to kill myself and others to show the world the rightness of my beliefs. I never give up that necessary kernel of self-doubt.
What will make this struggle so difficult is that this isn't a battle against any obviously targeted group. Past wars have been against nations or alliances of nations. This will be a war against an ideology, a set of values - specifically that set of values that holds that acts of terrorism are justified by a "right" cause.
I'm not exactly sure how a "war" as we think of war now could ever serve to resolve such an ideological conflict. As Roger/Alex rightly pointed out on another thread, we have to be VERY careful to avoid giving the appearance of waging a war on Islam. As it should be more than obvious, religious belief it is a motivation for resistance and bloodshed unlike any other. Holy wars are the worst conflicts imaginable.
We need to remain true to our values of belief in rule of law. The Constitution has served us very well so far. There's no need to abandon it now. Certainly war has led to certain abrogation of Constitutional freedoms in the past. Lincoln suspended the right to writ of habeous corpus and some other basic individual rights we hold dear during the Civil War and he is still regarded as the greatest and most just President in our history. I can live with bending some of the rules in order to carry out the unpleasant task of war, but breaking them is out of the question.
I regard a chief justification of this conflict to be an assertion to every person in the world that basic human rights must be recognized by all. In order to convince those who obviously don't believe such an idea, we have to "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk".
Get that posse-justice shit outta here.
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