Are you flesh or are you spirit?

[BlackShanglan]

That was a good line (from the movie Ladyhawke). It came back to me as I was thinking about SelenaKittyn's comments on menstruation, body, and spirituality, and what sort of philosophy they seemed (more globally) to enunciate. It seemed to me an interesting one tying body and spirituality together, an approach quite different to my own.

I think of myself as essentially gnostic with the 'small g' - in fact, probably the poster-horse for the concept of gnosticism when taken to mean not a specific sect or order, but the general concept that the physical world is of minor importance and the spiritual and mental worlds of much greater significance. Tied to that is an idea that it is possible to concentrate too strongly on the concrete and physical world, and that this can distract one from more important non-material goals. I don't think of the body or the physical world as inherently bad, mind you; more as mostly unimportant in relationship to other ideas. This is, of course, strangely at odds with my essentially Wildean aesthetic philosophy, but let's leave that aside. What it all has me wondering is how others here see the ideas of the material, intellectual, and spiritual realms of experience - how they are related, where and how they connect, whether that's a sensible division of things at all and which if any should be privileged.

Thoughts? Where do you stand?

Personally, I'm so unattached to my body and the physical world that it's ludicrous. I'm the sort of person who has bruises and scrapes all over for which I can identify no known source, and I get edgy simply from having too many things in my house. I don't like it when my possessions start to pile up on me. I'm very interested in things of the mind and spirit, but my body seems to me largely an annoyance; it has difficulty keeping up with the rest of me, and it's something like a battered old car that one is simply stuck riding around in. I'd much rather fly.

Shanglan

 

[cloudy]

Personally, I'm so unattached to my body and the physical world that it's ludicrous. I'm the sort of person who has bruises and scrapes all over for which I can identify no known source, and I get edgy simply from having too many things in my house. I don't like it when my possessions start to pile up on me. I'm very interested in things of the mind and spirit, but my body seems to me largely an annoyance; it has difficulty keeping up with the rest of me, and it's something like a battered old car that one is simply stuck riding around in. I'd much rather fly.

yes.

I would say more, but you've already said it too perfectly for me to have anything to add to it.

 

[BlackShanglan]

yes.

I would say more, but you've already said it too perfectly for me to have anything to add to it.

Seriously? How interesting! I don't know why, but for some reason you're one of the last people I would have guessed I would hear that from. Perhaps it's that you have such a concrete sense of personality to me - riding in barrel-dashes, making dumplings (GOOD dumplings - finally had some), writing stories. I "see" you in the physical world so much - although now that I think of it, that story I read of yours told me all I needed to know.

That adds another question to my list, actually. Some cultures seem to perceive the spirit world as more of a tangible location than others. Some Celtic approaches envision a place you can actually travel to, as in Oisin's journey to the faerie world. That's an interesting way of envisioning the connection; I wonder if it was intended literally, metaphorically, or some of each.

Shanglan

 

[cloudy]

Seriously? How interesting! I don't know why, but for some reason you're one of the last people I would have guessed I would hear that from. Perhaps it's that you have such a concrete sense of personality to me - riding in barrel-dashes, making dumplings (GOOD dumplings - finally had some), writing stories. I "see" you in the physical world so much - although now that I think of it, that story I read of yours told me all I needed to know.

That adds another question to my list, actually. Some cultures seem to perceive the spirit world as more of a tangible location than others. Some Celtic approaches envision a place you can actually travel to, as in Oisin's journey to the faerie world. That's an interesting way of envisioning the connection; I wonder if it was intended literally, metaphorically, or some of each.

Shanglan

I think that maybe I don't see them as quite so separate as some do. I think of them as overlapping, sort of, with both having some reach into the other.

Hard to explain, but maybe that makes it a little clearer.

ETA: Like you, I have scars that I couldn't tell you how they got there, not because I don't remember, but because I've never known. I pay very little attention to the physical part of me, unless it stops working, for some reason. Then I just want it fixed so that I can continue on as I was.

I've been fairly athletic most of my life (VERY athletic when I was younger), and in a strange way, that's almost spiritual. You reach a place where it truly is mind over matter to continue, or to win. Even barrelracing has a component of the spiritual: you have to almost be in a state of communion with your horse to do well...both of you focusing as one being, and not two.

(glad you liked the dumplings )

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think that maybe I don't see them as quite so separate as some do. I think of them as overlapping, sort of, with both having some reach into the other.

Hard to explain, but maybe that makes it a little clearer.

(glad you liked the dumplings )

*nods* I was thinking that myself about the overlapping. That is, you seem to negotiate both worlds with ease - and I hope with fewer bruises than I garner.

Shanglan

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, I would like to say I'm more flesh than spirit.
Except that here I am on the internet...
And when my work gets physical, I realise just how out of shape I am become

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I love the thought of you as a gnostic, Shang...

There's a Jungian idea/theory that our pathway to the spiritual comes through our "inferior" function. In your case, Shang, (and in mine as well) it appears that would be sensate. The body. No accident that this post appears on Literotica, which is all about sex, and sex so inherent to the body...

I am extremely dissociated and disembodied, actually... I understand living in my head, and would rather, truly. I am an intuitive first, a thinker second... body is last.. my little moon time essay might have sounded so harsh because that's how I punish myself... through the body... <shrug>

but I know, too, at least if Jung was onto something, that my body is also my way into that spiritual realm... a very push/pull and love/hate relationship...

I do have a bias... I believe we are all looking for that spiritual realm... and I mean that in the truly gnostic sense... I mean "the divine"... whatever/however that comes to or into you...

 

[impressive]

I (as in my consciousness -- or "spirit," if you will) am one with my body, but don't give a rat's ass about "things." I can no more separate my self from my physical body than I could distance my body from my spiritual being. However, in terms of "stuff" -- it's inconsequential. Feelings matter to me.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I love the thought of you as a gnostic, Shang...

There's a Jungian idea/theory that our pathway to the spiritual comes through our "inferior" function. In your case, Shang, (and in mine as well) it appears that would be sensate. The body. No accident that this post appears on Literotica, which is all about sex, and sex so inherent to the body...

*nods* I think that's the intriguing bit to work out - which informs which, and how. Wilde has Lord Henry Wotton advocate curing the soul by the means of the senses, and the senses by means of the soul; while I'm not sure it flows back and forth so easily, or whether the results would be good if it (looking at Wilde's ending to the novel, I'm not sure he does either), it seems to touch on something undeniable about how one's physical, mental, and spiritual existence interact with each other.

I seperate out spiritual and mental, by the way, in order to distinguish between what I see as the intuitive, faith-based, emotive, and non-material world of the spirit and the rational, logical, theory-based, judging and evaluating world of the intellect. I think that there is a great deal of cross-flow between them, as with the body, but I think of them as being qualitatively different things.

I am extremely dissociated and disembodied, actually... I understand living in my head, and would rather, truly. I am an intuitive first, a thinker second... body is last.. my little moon time essay might have sounded so harsh because that's how I punish myself... through the body... <shrug>

Interesting. Do you think that's tied into the theme of celebrating the body there - a desire to remove that punitive aspect? It's a tricky one for someone like me; I don't think of my body as punitive per se, or something that needs to be punished, but at times it's just damned unhelpful. I notice it mostly when it's sick or achy or limiting.

but I know, too, at least if Jung was onto something, that my body is also my way into that spiritual realm... a very push/pull and love/hate relationship...

I do have a bias... I believe we are all looking for that spiritual realm... and I mean that in the truly gnostic sense... I mean "the divine"... whatever/however that comes to or into you...

There's some very interesting stuff that goes on at the turn of the last century that I often go back to with this idea, and in the modern world as well. I think Yeats embodies it best for me. I heard Roy Foster give a talk on him once that seemed to me immensely cogent. His point was that Yeats, who wrote in his autobiography that his violently atheistic father "tore from [him] the gentle faith of his childhood," spent much of the rest of his life looking for something to take its place. He tried poetry, theatre, politics, the occult, and all manners of ceremonies and rituals tied to all manner of things. I think that Foster is right that it looks a lot like a man trying to find something to give depth and meaning to his experiences. Perhaps there's something in human nature that will always crave some higher or nobler thing to shape itself around; it's intriguing to me to see the wide range of things people choose for that purpose.

Shanglan

 

[BlackShanglan]

I (as in my consciousness -- or "spirit," if you will) am one with my body, but don't give a rat's ass about "things." I can no more separate my self from my physical body than I could distance my body from my spiritual being. However, in terms of "stuff" -- it's inconsequential. Feelings matter to me.

Mmm. Good distinction between the physical self and the external physical world. Do you mean "feelings" as in emotions, "feelings" as in physical sensations, or both?

 

[impressive]

Mmm. Good distinction between the physical self and the external physical world. Do you mean "feelings" as in emotions, "feelings" as in physical sensations, or both?

Feelings as in sensations -- encompassing both. There is no difference in result, only in catalyst.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I would say that flesh and spirit are equally imortant. We need both to be complete. If we're too much flesh, then we eat and drink and party too much, we become greedy, we only think of the pleasure and never care about the consequences for ourselves or others. If we're too much spirit, we don't appreciate the wonders of the physical world, and we get worn out, stressed, burned-out, and depressed.

A balance of the two make us appreciate the world and our role in it, both that which we can see and touch, and that which we can only feel and sense.

 

[entitled]

i just AM.

i'm comfortable both in the physical world and in the spiritual world. There are times when one calls more than the other, and needs more tending, but they're fairly rare and usually easy to take care of.

What does that make me?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

i just AM.

i'm comfortable both in the physical world and in the spiritual world. There are times when one calls more than the other, and needs more tending, but they're fairly rare and usually easy to take care of.

What does that make me?

Winnie The Pooh.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Winnie The Pooh.

I like it.

 

[entitled]

Can i be Eeyore instead?

 

[BlackShanglan]

I would say that flesh and spirit are equally imortant. We need both to be complete. If we're too much flesh, then we eat and drink and party too much, we become greedy, we only think of the pleasure and never care about the consequences for ourselves or others. If we're too much spirit, we don't appreciate the wonders of the physical world, and we get worn out, stressed, burned-out, and depressed.

A balance of the two make us appreciate the world and our role in it, both that which we can see and touch, and that which we can only feel and sense.

I like your idea about balance. It brings up another area of interaction between the spheres - appreciating the physical world on both physical and spiritual levels. Or perhaps that's not what you intended - I'm slipping into my own mindset, perhaps, in that my appreciation of natural beauty is inevitably tinged with a spiritual cast. But what an excellent point on the results of neglecting the body. I can remember my mother telling me that living too long just in the mind was like running the car off of the battery - it couldn't continue forever without recharging.

Shanglan

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I firmly believe that body and soul are linked together like twins. Siamese ones, if you want. If one suffers, so does the other. If one is happy, the other one feels it, too.

Take psychosomatic diseases, for instance. Say that you're extremely stressed at work.It's not looking up anytime in the nearest future. You're worried and tense. Your soul doesn't feel good. You're sad and miserable, and you want nothing more than to just throw your pads and folders on the floor and run away, but you know you can't do that. There are bills to be paid. Food to be bought.

Your body doesn't give a rat's ass about your bills. It does, however, carea great deal about it's best friend Your Soul. So, as a good friend, your body decides to help give soulie a chance to rest and relax and get back in shape. How? By getting really sick. Just as things at work is at its ultimate stress level, your body suddenly starts to feel bad. Your stomach hurts. You get a migraine. You throw up. You can't keep any food down. You get diarrhoea(sp?). And if you don't listen to THESE signals, your body's gonna get REALLY desperate and trip over something, breaking a leg to make SURE you stay home and get some rest, so that Body & Soul will get some quality time, and a chance to take a few deep breaths together.

And yes, I do believe that it's vice versa when it comes to positive things. Your soul sees a beautiful sunset, and your heart starts to beat faster. Your body smells fresh-baked bread, and your soul smiles as you remember your grandmother baking fresh bread and serving it with jam and milk...

As for Winnie The Pooh, he actually IS a symbol for the taoists, because he just IS.

 

[entitled]

*ponderates*








Exactly. Or at least close enough.

 

[BlackShanglan]

So, as a good friend, your body decides to help give soulie a chance to rest and relax and get back in shape.

I had no idea that this discussion could be so cute. I very like it, though. I certainly get plenty of the soul-affecting-body stuff. It's harder for me to come up with instances in my own life of it work the other way, but I suppose that a really good massage or a superb meal might fit the bill.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I had no idea that this discussion could be so cute. I very like it, though. I certainly get plenty of the soul-affecting-body stuff. It's harder for me to come up with instances in my own life of it work the other way, but I suppose that a really good massage or a superb meal might fit the bill.

A nice backrub from someone you like gives your body physcial pleasure, while the soul gets off on knowing that someone who cares about you is doing something because he or she wants you to feel good, ie an act of love. Good example there, Shang.

 

[rgraham666]

If she's Eeyore, I want to be Tigger.

I've generally had the Buddhist perspective on possessions, do you own them or do they own you?

And being a big fan of balance, neither spirit nor flesh rules in my case. Both have their place, their advantages and disadvantages, but neither of the two rules all the time.

In fact, I suspect that separating them is another manifestation of the Western drive to tie down and label everything in existence. Sort of an ISO 9000 for the universe. This creates a border between the two when they are simply parts of a whole thing.

 

[TxRad]

I was going to make a joke about my body being to full of spirits sometimes but I've had to cut back on that as it hurts to much anymore.

In my younger days I was more physical and as I've grown older, I've turned inward to the mental and spiritual areas. I now pause to smell the roses as the saying goes. That's not to say that I didn't appreciate beauty before but now I have a greater depth from which to view it.

I've called myself an agnostic most of my life but the truth is I do believe in a higher power but I have no truck with religion. Organized anyway. Being American Indian (I want say part Cloudy) I have always been involved with the path and spirits of my ancestors and the myths and stories that that entails.

Every person IMHO has to have something spiritual to put their faith in. If for no other reason that moral support and a reason to think that things will always get better.

I've said a lot but I'm not sure I've really said anything of importance.....

Time to think somemore.....

 

[Svenskaflicka]

My body, my soul, and myself, are all going to bed now. Night, night.

 

[gauchecritic]

One quite unappetizing view of body and soul is the distinction which 'and' brings.

Being of the mind that the body 'creates' the soul I am extremely loath to fully accept my own tenets. Because the implication is, that I have never existed before and will never exist again. I imagine that the greatest comfort of religion is that of immortality, which, rather unfortunately for many people, implies going on as yourself. However attractive that seems I can't fully accept it, which is quite terrible.

Fortunately (for my peace of mind) I also believe in the universal conscience, which gives me leaway to at least partly become flesh again. A sort of force generated by all living things which surrounds us and penetrates us, (I've been watching Star Wars again) and which we become a part of, when we leave.

What does this have to do with the question?

A long while ago I casually studied the theory of body language and discovered that naturally assumed stances, whilst indicating our thoughts can also affect our thinking.

In general, when we are unsure or against someone or something being told to us we form a physical barrier. Turning the body slightly away, folding arms etc. and it appears that actively opposing your own body, making yourself face forward, uncrossing your arms, has a positive, accepting effect on your outlook. I've tried, and it does often work. There are lots of other unconscious signals (and the girlies are so much better than the blokes at interpreting them "It's not what you said, it's the way you said it.")

And this ties in rather neatly with a theory that seems nice to me and also with the view of body and soul/intellect being indivisible and therefore mutually supportive.

That the whole body is responsible for thought, rather than only the brain or mind.

So, if this is true, then body is soul.