Are the young people going to vote?

[Boxlicker101]

If soldiers' graves are a justification for interfering, we British have soldiers' graves in virtually every country in the world except Switzerland.

We did not repatriate our dead but assume that wherever they lie is forever England (or Scotland, Wales or Ireland).

Og

PS. It is about time we invaded Switzerland.

Og, I think you would have to admit that many of the soldiers in those graves were killed by people defending themselves against aggression. Most of the British wars up through the Boer War were matters of British aggression in the name of their national interests. That's not a complaint, by the way, just an observation.

 

[Edward Teach]

Teach:

~lucky

p.s. Student... A little older than 25... Second time voting, though I've been eligible to vote 3 times. The internet has made all the difference on my activity and interest in politics. Obviously getting older has something to do with it, but having access to unbiased and biased information in the privacy of my own bedroom, without emotions behind it and having the ability to apply it to what's most important to me has made me feel very confident and fulfilled by having voted today.

I must say that you appear to be maturing quite well, Lucky. If at any time I can help you further feel fulfilled, please, please, do not hesitate to let me know.

day or night


Eddie The Helper

 

[Guest]

I must say that you appear to be maturing quite well, Lucky. If at any time I can help you further feel fulfilled, please, please, do not hesitate to let me know.

day or night

Eddie The Helper

Eddie the Helper???

(don'tcha mean Eddie the Horndog?)

 

[Edward Teach]

Eddie the Helper???

(don'tcha mean Eddie the Horndog?)

Horndog Helper, it's a little like Hamburger Helper but a little more interactive.

I can probably getr you a sample.



Eddie The Foundout

 

[Guest]

Horndog Helper, it's a little like Hamburger Helper but a little more interactive.

I can probably getr you a sample.

Eddie The Foundout

Will you wear your leather swashbuckler pants?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
Hey, guess what, young people don't hold conservative values.

Notably, untrue.

People able to get into universities can usually hold their own in a debate pretty well.

Highly, highly, highly, dangerously untrue.

 

[LadyJeanne]

MSNBC reported that the same percentage of 18-29 year olds voted in this year's election as in the last - 17%

I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.

 

[Edward Teach]

Will you wear your leather swashbuckler pants?

Of course and my broad sword and my long waistband sash


Ed

 

[Moon Shadow]

What happened to Native Americans was inevitable; they way it happened was unconscionable. Every country has had native populations that have been conquered, even if you have to look back a couple thousand years. With this mentality, I'm amazed that most of Europe and part of the British Isles aren't still pissed at the Romans for conquering them. There are plenty of reasons to be anti-American, but this one is a bit overdone.

Sure, for thousands of years different populations conquered each other. Still, there are not so many cases where conquerers exterminated native populations almost to the end. For example, do British exist today? - Yes! Do Romans ruined their life? - No! Do Indians exist today? - Almost NO! Did US ruined their life, take everything from them, put them to live in ghettos? - YES! Some people would name it genocide!

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Notably, untrue.

#

Highly, highly, highly, dangerously untrue. [/B]

Read my later position. If you look at college students with "conservative" views, most notably those who vote Republican, they also tend to be more liberal in those views. This is because they are young and they don't draw on the wealth of "how things were" when forming judgements. Thus, a college republican tends (in my observation) to be less anti-homosexuality and whatnot.

#

Based on personal experience. Results may vary.

 

[Moon Shadow]

Moon Shadow...my oh, my...have you got a case of anti americanism...Eat your big Mac and Freedom Fries and salute the Arche De Triomphe... I lifted my leg to it while motoring through Paris holding my nose.

To be anti-american today is most common thing everywhere in the world. That's a thing you Americans firstly have to think about. What happened with mutual understanding, with toleracy, with respect others' political will? US became a brutal global policeman who's only arguments are power, force, guns, killing! Live for a while out of US and try to put yourslef into a skin of other nations and you'll know what their feelings are!

When mentioning Big Mac, and all other junks, including a culture based on instant values (supported with money and force), unfortunatelly it seems those are the main things US is able to offer the world today. Very sad.

Btw, never consume any of US junk products and don't care for someone's motoring through Paris...

 

[oggbashan]

Og, I think you would have to admit that many of the soldiers in those graves were killed by people defending themselves against aggression. Most of the British wars up through the Boer War were matters of British aggression in the name of their national interests. That's not a complaint, by the way, just an observation.

'Many of the soldiers' is true. 'Most of the British Wars up through the Boer War' is not. Most losses were defending ourselves or other European Nations against aggression e.g. the Napoleonic wars, The Crimean War, and earlier conflicts that led to an independent Netherlands; Spain and Portugal (our oldest ally) free of French rule; and Egypt from becoming the Mahdi's fundamentalist state. We didn't lose many soldiers in the last mentioned compared with the Mahdi's forces.

All those wars, including the Boer War, had fewer British deaths than WWI or WWII.

Our record in New Zealand, in Southern Africa against the Zulus, and in Australia against the largely unresisting Aborigines, should be condemned along with the slaughter of Native Americans by the US and of other Natives in the New World by Spain.

Our national interests meant that we were unwilling to see a Europe united against us. We lost more soldiers in Europe than anywhere else.

As for the American War of Independence, the War of 1812, WWI, WWII and the Falklands War - in none of them was the UK the 'aggressor'.

Our worst aggression was the Opium Wars against China. That was a shameful episode that is often ignored in our history books.

I know we were the aggressor many times. We were also the bringers of freedom, independence and eventual democracy to many parts of the world and worked hard to destroy the slave trade that we had profited from in the past.

Og

Edited for PS: We do have British troops graves in Switzerland from aircrew and others who died in WWII. They did not die fighting the Swiss but the Swiss gave them hospitality and graves if necessary.

 

[McKenna]

Sure, for thousands of years different populations conquered each other. Still, there are not so many cases where conquerers exterminated native populations almost to the end. For example, do British exist today? - Yes! Do Romans ruined their life? - No! Do Indians exist today? - Almost NO! Did US ruined their life, take everything from them, put them to live in ghettos? - YES! Some people would name it genocide!

I can't help but feel you're misinformed. I would suggest you research your argument before you jump on the "I Hate America" bandwagon. Why don't you jump on that same badwagon concerning Australia and their aborginials, or Sweden and theirs, or China, Mongolia and Japan and theirs? Mexico? Canada? South America? It seems to me your main objective is to perpetuate your message of hate. America can't help but be in the spotlight, and along with that kind of fame comes the airing of all the skeletons in the closet. It is put under a microscope and analyzed minutely, and any information gathered is used against it maliciously or politically. Under such conditions, it would be impossible for any country to come out without glaring faults.

No one is relegated to a "ghetto." They're given the same opportunity to get anywhere in life they wish to get as me or my immigrant, non-American husband. If anything, there are more social programs set up to help Native populations than there are to help caucasian. Again, I repeat, what happened to the Native Americans was inevitable; the way it happened was unconscionable. I don't disagree it was a horrible thing or that atrocities were committed; I disagree with it being a continual argument to hate the U.S. You also must remember that not all Americans participated in what you term the "genocide." It would be like hating Germany and all Germans because of the Nazis. If England, France, Spain and eventually the newly-formed country of America hadn't expanded over the North American continent, some other country would have. That's my point.


In case you need help with the vocabulary-
inevitable: impossible to avoid or prevent
unconscionable: beyond prudence or reason

 

[Boxlicker101]

'Many of the soldiers' is true. 'Most of the British Wars up through the Boer War' is not. Most losses were defending ourselves or other European Nations against aggression e.g. the Napoleonic wars, The Crimean War, and earlier conflicts that led to an independent Netherlands; Spain and Portugal (our oldest ally) free of French rule; and Egypt from becoming the Mahdi's fundamentalist state. We didn't lose many soldiers in the last mentioned compared with the Mahdi's forces.

All those wars, including the Boer War, had fewer British deaths than WWI or WWII.

Our record in New Zealand, in Southern Africa against the Zulus, and in Australia against the largely unresisting Aborigines, should be condemned along with the slaughter of Native Americans by the US and of other Natives in the New World by Spain.

Our national interests meant that we were unwilling to see a Europe united against us. We lost more soldiers in Europe than anywhere else.

As for the American War of Independence, the War of 1812, WWI, WWII and the Falklands War - in none of them was the UK the 'aggressor'.

Our worst aggression was the Opium Wars against China. That was a shameful episode that is often ignored in our history books.

I know we were the aggressor many times. We were also the bringers of freedom, independence and eventual democracy to many parts of the world and worked hard to destroy the slave trade that we had profited from in the past.

Og

Hi, Og.
I know that the British conquests in Africa usually ultimnately benefitted the conquered lands. I think the same can be said about most conquests in history; the conqueror made the trains run on time, so to speak. A big exception to that rule is Hitler. I think another exception would be the British conquest of India.

I would have some quibble about the Napoleonic Wars. This was a series of wars, beginning with what was called The Wars of the French Revolution, in which European nations, including England, attacked revolutionary France in hopes of restoring the French monarchy. The various kings and emperors saw the Anerican Revolution and the French Revolution as a disturbing trend and wanted it stopped and reversed.

The attacks brought Napoleon to power and cost the European nations territory when they were defeated. Various coalitions continued to attack France but Napoleon was ultimately defeated as the result of his invasion of Russia. He won when he was the victim of aggression but lost when he became the aggressor.

The Crimean War was the result of the Russians building a huge naval base at Sebastapol. This threatened the balance of power in the Black and Med. Seas so France, England, The Ottoman Empire and Sardinia attacked and destroyed the base. In the long run, it was defensive because it prevented Russian expansion but England was never actually attacked.

The attacks against Scotland and Ireland were 100% aggression.

Many other wars were fought, mainly to prevent any one European nation from becoming dominant. As you say, they were to keep Europe from uniting against England. Fortunately, the wars were largely successful.

In any event, this is all history now.

 

[Moon Shadow]

I can't help but feel you're misinformed. I would suggest you research your argument before you jump on the "I Hate America" bandwagon. Why don't you jump on that same badwagon concerning Australia and their aborginials, or Sweden and theirs, or China, Mongolia and Japan and theirs? Mexico? Canada? South America? It seems to me your main objective is to perpetuate your message of hate. America can't help but be in the spotlight, and along with that kind of fame comes the airing of all the skeletons in the closet. It is put under a microscope and analyzed minutely, and any information gathered is used against it maliciously or politically. Under such conditions, it would be impossible for any country to come out without glaring faults.

No one is relegated to a "ghetto." They're given the same opportunity to get anywhere in life they wish to get as me or my immigrant, non-American husband. If anything, there are more social programs set up to help Native populations than there are to help caucasian. Again, I repeat, what happened to the Native Americans was inevitable; the way it happened was unconscionable. I don't disagree it was a horrible thing or that atrocities were committed; I disagree with it being a continual argument to hate the U.S. You also must remember that not all Americans participated in what you term the "genocide." It would be like hating Germany and all Germans because of the Nazis. If England, France, Spain and eventually the newly-formed country of America hadn't expanded over the North American continent, some other country would have. That's my point.


In case you need help with the vocabulary-
inevitable: impossible to avoid or prevent
unconscionable: beyond prudence or reason

Thanks for giving me help with the vocabulary

See, every action has it's reaction. It's obvious many people in world today are angry or they don't like what US do. Please, for that kind of feeling must be some reasons (hope I don't have to explain those reasons too much, you sound like a very intellegent person). OK? And one thing: no one here, neither do I, hate America or Americans themselves.

When mentioning all those states, like Australia, Mexico, Canada, states of South America, etc, I'm completely agree there used to live native people before Europeans or others had come. Actually, there's no place in the world where in some past processes of moving or melting different populations weren't actual. Indeed, native american Indians came from Asia, didn't they?

But, the fact is US Indians, differently of Indians of South America for example, were sistematicaly beaten off in the past. And when talking about present day, you say there are many social programs for help to native population! Does that talk something to you? Why such programs have to be set up anyway? Maybe because the native populatons in US today are really, in many aspects of life, sitauted on social margins!

And here I come to my point! US did what it did! That was an inevitable process and the history couldn't be returned. Indeed, same or similiar "sins" could be find for many nations and countries in the world, as you mentioned also. No need to go further than Germany case. So, here is my main point of this discussion: instead of stopping killing, instead of being a world leader cultivating mutual understanding, respect to others' cultures, others' way of life, others' political will, instead of being tolerate, instead of admitting own mistakes, US gone mad. US became a world lider promoting selfish politic and economic interests, promoting a pure force and power in solving problems, promoting own way of life against ways of life other nations!!! And that's why many people can't stand US arogance and that's why many people US actions in the past like destroying Indians, leading war in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc, analize minutely and take quite maliciosly!

Btw, instead of being what you are, living comfortable in US, how about being an Iraqi right now? An Iraqi scared to death, afraid of US military force? Ever thought about every single life in the world destroyed in the name of so call "US democracy"?

 

[McKenna]

Thanks for giving me help with the vocabulary

See, every action has it's reaction. It's obvious many people in world today are angry or they don't like what US do. Please, for that kind of feeling must be some reasons (hope I don't have to explain those reasons too much, you sound like a very intellegent person). OK? And one thing: no one here, neither do I, hate America or Americans themselves.

When mentioning all those states, like Australia, Mexico, Canada, states of South America, etc, I'm completely agree there used to live native people before Europeans or others had come. Actually, there's no place in the world where in some past processes of moving or melting different populations weren't actual. Indeed, native american Indians came from Asia, didn't they?

But, the fact is US Indians, differently of Indians of South America for example, were sistematicaly beaten off in the past. And when talking about present day, you say there are many social programs for help to native population! Does that talk something to you? Why such programs have to be set up anyway? Maybe because the native populatons in US today are really, in many aspects of life, sitauted on social margins!

And here I come to my point! US did what it did! That was an inevitable process and the history couldn't be returned. Indeed, same or similiar "sins" could be find for many nations and countries in the world, as you mentioned also. No need to go further than Germany case. So, here is my main point of this discussion: instead of stopping killing, instead of being a world leader cultivating mutual understanding, respect to others' cultures, others' way of life, others' political will, instead of being tolerate, instead of admitting own mistakes, US gone mad. US became a world lider promoting selfish politic and economic interests, promoting a pure force and power in solving problems, promoting own way of life against ways of life other nations!!! And that's why many people can't stand US arogance and that's why many people US actions in the past like destroying Indians, leading war in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc, analize minutely and take quite maliciosly!

Btw, instead of being what you are, living comfortable in US, how about being an Iraqi right now? An Iraqi scared to death, afraid of US military force? Ever thought about every single life in the world destroyed in the name of so call "US democracy"?

Although I can understand your fear and the basis for your argument, I still think you're lumping Americans into one barrel, which isn't fair. Often times my government does things that I vehemently disagree with. (Continued presence in Iraq, for instance.) Yes, I agree America seems to be a self-serving country, especially in the world-view. Yes, we tend to think our way of life is better than that in other nations -something I don't agree with, but I'm in the minority. I love this country. I love the opportunities available to me here. I cringe at some of the things my country does in the name of democracy, but it's still the best place I've ever lived or been acquainted with. If you or anyone else wants to take that as arrogance, you're welcome to your opinion. The United States will continue to be a target for hate and jealousy so long as it remains a super-power; that's part of what a country must accept while being one of the world's most powerful nations.

But take heart, I for one believe that slowly but surely more and more minds are opening to reality of what America is becoming, which is something removed from what it could potentially be. This election has taught me one thing, that our country seems very nearly split down the middle on many issues, including the type of leader we wish to have lead us.

And some day the U.S. will fall, just like every other nation of power has done before it. In another 100 years I predict China will be the World Super Power, and the United States will be just another "has-been." We'll get what's coming to us, eventually. And then thousands (millions?) of Americans will pay for the mistakes of a few hundred politicians. Please be careful of lumping all of us Americans into one mold. It just isn't fair.

 

[Moon Shadow]

Although I can understand your fear and the basis for your argument, I still think you're lumping Americans into one barrel, which isn't fair. Often times my government does things that I vehemently disagree with. (Continued presence in Iraq, for instance.) Yes, I agree America seems to be a self-serving country, especially in the world-view. Yes, we tend to think our way of life is better than that in other nations -something I don't agree with, but I'm in the minority. I love this country. I love the opportunities available to me here. I cringe at some of the things my country does in the name of democracy, but it's still the best place I've ever lived or been acquainted with. If you or anyone else wants to take that as arrogance, you're welcome to your opinion. The United States will continue to be a target for hate and jealousy so long as it remains a super-power; that's part of what a country must accept while being one of the world's most powerful nations.

But take heart, I for one believe that slowly but surely more and more minds are opening to reality of what America is becoming, which is something removed from what it could potentially be. This election has taught me one thing, that our country seems very nearly split down the middle on many issues, including the type of leader we wish to have lead us.

And some day the U.S. will fall, just like every other nation of power has done before it. In another 100 years I predict China will be the World Super Power, and the United States will be just another "has-been." We'll get what's coming to us, eventually. And then thousands (millions?) of Americans will pay for the mistakes of a few hundred politicians. Please be careful of lumping all of us Americans into one mold. It just isn't fair.

Seems you took words from my mouth I intended to say but I didn't (just because my well maners). Yes, all imperies fall. That's a simple rule. Remember Persians, Romans, Byzantine, Otomans, etc. Every epoch has it's rulers. In present day it is US. Indeed, somewhere it is OK for world to have a leader, but that leader have to be like a shepard and not to be - like you say - self serving on account of herd.

And, maybe you haven't noticed, I said I don't hate Americans themselves. That means I don't lump all of you into the same barrel. That also mean I'm not jealous, or something like that, because US have super-power. That kind of power - a power of money, of force, of industry - means nothing to me. I've always held real power comes from the heart of every single human.

 

[McKenna]

Seems you took words from my mouth I intended to say but I didn't (just because my well maners). Yes, all imperies fall. That's a simple rule. Remember Persians, Romans, Byzantine, Otomans, etc. Every epoch has it's rulers. In present day it is US. Indeed, somewhere it is OK for world to have a leader, but that leader have to be like a shepard and not to be - like you say - self serving on account of herd.

And, maybe you haven't noticed, I said I don't hate Americans themselves. That means I don't lump all of you into the same barrel. That also mean I'm not jealous, or something like that, because US have super-power. That kind of power - a power of money, of force, of industry - means nothing to me. I've always held real power comes from the heart of every single human.

With power comes responsibility. I'm not sure we (America) are living up to that end of the bargain anymore.

-Mck, who's feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Seems you took words from my mouth I intended to say but I didn't (just because my well maners). Yes, all imperies fall. That's a simple rule. Remember Persians, Romans, Byzantine, Otomans, etc. Every epoch has it's rulers. In present day it is US. Indeed, somewhere it is OK for world to have a leader, but that leader have to be like a shepard and not to be - like you say - self serving on account of herd.

And, maybe you haven't noticed, I said I don't hate Americans themselves. That means I don't lump all of you into the same barrel. That also mean I'm not jealous, or something like that, because US have super-power. That kind of power - a power of money, of force, of industry - means nothing to me. I've always held real power comes from the heart of every single human.

When you make blanket statements about a country or people, you are by definition lumping them all together. When you comments are unifromly negative, adding the disclaimer, but I don't hate america or americans comes off as dishonest.

Attacks upon policy or politicians can be worded in a way that imples no broader dislike or they canbe worded to imply that the policies or politican are symptematic of the people as a whole.

Just shy of 50% of Americans did not vote for Bush. I would guess here at the Ah, the percentage of Bush voters is in single didgets.

An effort should be made by anyone commenting on America, American policies or American political figures to not make blanket statements. On this particular forum, the majority of people who read your comments are the very ones who struggled to keep the events you are so upset about from happening.

A few of us, myself included, might deserve your angst, but the vast majority who read and post here certainly do not.

-Colly

 

[Colleen Thomas]

In the 2000 election, only 17 percent of Americans aged 18-25 turned out to vote. But in this election -- with all the attendant hype about mobilization and energizing the youth vote -- it's estimated a whole 17 percent of those aged 18-25 voted. Kids. I hope Bush brings back the draft.

Random comment from a site with reaction to the news of Kerry's concession.

-Colly

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

In the 2000 election, only 17 percent of Americans aged 18-25 turned out to vote. But in this election -- with all the attendant hype about mobilization and energizing the youth vote -- it's estimated a whole 17 percent of those aged 18-25 voted. Kids. I hope Bush brings back the draft.

Random comment from a site with reaction to the news of Kerry's concession.

-Colly

Neverending line at all polling places as far as I saw on our campus. I'm willing to bet the standard, polls over, go home cutting off of students occurred again. Youth will be blamed for apathy.

But the youth is apathetic...

Because they've been accused of apathy every day of their lives by the shining flower children and they have no real forum to rebut because no one gives a fuck what the youth think unless it's to comment on the dumbest of our number. Fucking world.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Neverending line at all polling places as far as I saw on our campus. I'm willing to bet the standard, polls over, go home cutting off of students occurred again. Youth will be blamed for apathy.

But the youth is apathetic...

Because they've been accused of apathy every day of their lives by the shining flower children and they have no real forum to rebut because no one gives a fuck what the youth think unless it's to comment on the dumbest of our number. Fucking world.

The majority of people in that age group are not college students. They dropped out of college, graduated already or never went. Those who are students should be voting by absentee ballot unless they commute to class from their permanent homes.

If they are working, they are in the same position as other working persons. If, for whatever reason, they are unemployed, they have plenty of time to vote.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Neverending line at all polling places as far as I saw on our campus. I'm willing to bet the standard, polls over, go home cutting off of students occurred again. Youth will be blamed for apathy.

But the youth is apathetic...

Because they've been accused of apathy every day of their lives by the shining flower children and they have no real forum to rebut because no one gives a fuck what the youth think unless it's to comment on the dumbest of our number. Fucking world.

'On campus' are the operative words here, I think. I'm willing to bet that college students voted much higher in numbers than 17%. However, there is a vast sea of young people that never made it onto a campus or went to college, and they don't vote either.

 

[cantdog]

At least they didn't vote for either of those two fellows. They can hold their heads up for that. Shining flower children or not, neither party has taken up their issues. The youth were discounted and they did it right back.

Give them somebody who gives a fuck if they live or die, if they prosper or fail, and they'll respond like anyone else does.

 

[Moon Shadow]

With power comes responsibility. I'm not sure we (America) are living up to that end of the bargain anymore.

-Mck, who's feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment

Please, don't feel disillusioned nor for a single moment! Just continue to live your life no matter what anyone says. Enjoy your comfortable and all opportunities available to you in your country