Are the Trolls Back?

[Guest]

Last night I noticed that my story's rating had taken a sudden plunge. I didn't worry about it because it happens, so sad for me, blah blah blah. It stung, but I'm a big girl. It had happened earlier this month, then two votes were removed and the story rating rose again and it started getting more high votes.

Then a friend of mine noticed that all 8 of his stories had also plunged. He has had more than one story in the top 50 of his catagory for some time and even had made the top ten a few times. It was a little odd, but he was philisophical about it.

Then a second friend sent a message that all 17 of HIS stories (very highly rated in his catagory, at least 2 in the top 10, for long periods of time) had ALSO taken a serious plunge in rating. He's a little miffed, and thought it might be someone personally trying to drop him out of contest competition, but he eventually also went with the "eh, it happens" philosophy. But it did seem....odd.

And I think I smell trolls. It seems that a LOT of stories took sudden dives in rating. I've read in these forums that the editors do a "troll patrol" looking for votes that "look wrong". I don't know what the technical aspect of this is -- I'd hope that there is some way to connect a vote to a membership so that if a particular member is going around just trashing authors via the voting system, or trying to promote a favorite by trashing other authors, it would appear. I can't imagine that it's easy looking for such stuff, given the numbers of stories online and how many a few trolls could trash in a short period. I know I wouldn't want to do it if it was all a matter of judgement calls.

I know also that the voting system is, at least in large part, a popularity contest that can be more about the author than the story. If there were not contests attached to the voting, I don't think I'd care nearly as much as I do. I am not ashamed to admit adding a Literotica award to my writer's resume would be a nice thing. One of the above mentioned writers is a past winner and took me to dinner on his prize money. He displays his award proudly. I am also aware that getting one's story read widely is somewhat dependent on the voting, and since I have career aspirations, that's important to me.

However, this whole "troll" thing makes me think I don't want to make my work subject to voting, that even if I turn out a good story people like, if I don't campaign for friends to vote for me, I won't "earn" any recognition and I"ll end up at the bottom of the pile.

Anyone else have a take on this? Is voting a source of "real" feedback or just a system that can be played to someone's advantage/disadvantage? Are the "people in charge" stuck with the system? Since one can vote without commenting, how useful is voting, really, as a source of feedback?

 

[cloudy]

Anyone else have a take on this? Is voting a source of "real" feedback or just a system that can be played to someone's advantage/disadvantage? Are the "people in charge" stuck with the system? Since one can vote without commenting, how useful is voting, really, as a source of feedback?

yes.

Honestly, even if you do have dreams of making it as an author, how can votes here at Literotica affect that?

The answer is they don't, unless you let them. Roll with it....take it as the flawed system it is, and rely more on feedback from authors you respect.

The trolls are always here, they always will be. Just one of those things where you have to take the good with the bad.

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[Guest]

It's all about numbers

The trolls aren't what concern me -- they are annoyances. What I am talking about is a voting system that is prone to troll abuse.

Owl and Cloudy, your advice is all good. I do ignore the trolls. What I question is the value of the voting system overall. I don't take troll votes as an indictment on my work. I'm certain that if someone really wanted to offer a comment to help me, they'd make a comment. Troll votes are just shitclods thrown by trolls. The muck they toss might be meaningless in itself, but it still messes up the scenery and requires cleaning, and it obscures what is underneath.l

I want to participate in Literotica to get some polish on what I'm writing, to expose it to readers and hear what's said, and maybe have some fun while doing in by participating in the forums and talking to folks. Getting some resume fodder is a bonus, but not something I'm counting on. There are excellent writers here, and honest, hardworking, knowledgable editors. I can read through other authors stories to learn how to (and how not to) write.

If someone really hated my story, really thought I'd done a piss poor job and I'd ruined their day, putting a negative vote would be the LEAST efficient way to make me change. A comment would do more, and would certainly be a better way to warn other people not to read my writing. Trolls have no affect on what I write.

However, trolls DO have an effect, even if I ignore them -- even if everyone ignores them. They affect the numbers which are used by many (even most) readers when selecting what to read. Most people don't go to the END of the story to read the comments before they read the STORY. Do you read book reviews before or after you buy the book and read it?

The numbers make a difference - I've had three years of watching it with my two friends who also post here before I put anything up. If they didn't make a difference, no one would even think about them -- and it doesn't take much to figure out that many people do think about them. If the numbers made no difference, there would be no Top Story lists, no little icons marking "hot" stories, no contests, no ranking by numbers read -- there has been a lot of effort put into collecting that data and using it. If the votes and reader clicks aren't important, why bother counting them?

Cloudy, having ANY award or even an almost ran on a writing resume is a good thing. Editors will look at you more closely and might give you more of a chance. If I don't have voting turned on, I can't be in the running for any Literotica contest, which means no possibility, however remote, of getting that little tidbit for a resume.

However, if voting can be subverted, why do I want to turn voting on? It doesn't really serve a purpose then. So either I want to work with a system that can create disadvantages for me or I skip the system and take the automatic disadvantages that go with that choice. If the numbers weren't important, I woudn't care. I have posted other stories in places that do not use rating systems and depend only on readers sending feedback. But, as I have repeated so many times, the numbers ARE here and DO have an effect -- and perhaps that needs to be looked at.

Meanwhile, I think I'll go eat a cookie.

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[York]

The answer is they don't, unless you let them. Roll with it....take it as the flawed system it is, and rely more on feedback from authors you respect.

I am maybe going slightly off-topic here, but I am interested in this comment about feedback from authors you respect.

I'm a musician and I have regularly had chats about how musicians view music very differently to how non-musicians listen. I recall how I listened to tracks by artists like the Who when growing up and how differently I now listen to them having recorded, mixed, engineered and produced music. My perception is totally different; I now sometimes listen to how a song is put together, what the production is like and wonder how I might have done it differently.

Do people find themseves in the same position with writing? Once they start to write do they think more about the language, the punctuation, the style etc, rather than just enjoying (or not) the story?!

Non-mucisians beyond any shadow of a doubt listen to music differently to musicians. Is the same true of authors and non-authors?!

 

[Guest]

Do people find themseves in the same position with writing? Once they start to write do they think more about the language, the punctuation, the style etc, rather than just enjoying (or not) the story?!

Non-mucisians beyond any show of a doubt listen music differently to musicians. Is the same true of authors and non-authors?!

DoBosco, I am both a writer and a musician, and the answer is, I think, YES. I think someone who wants to "perform" experiences writing (or music) differently from someone with a more casual approach. Knowing more means being able to see more. Just as I listen to how a musician puts sounds together (I'm a vocalist, and I view the voice as an instrument), how they breathe, how they use dynamics and play with rhythms, I look and "listen" for the same kinds of things in writing I read. How does a given author create characters? How do they handle plot, description, dialog? Why is it Jane Austen can make all those damn semi-colons work, while legions of her imitators and sequel writers come out sounding stupid? How does Laura Antonio make a sex scene sizzle and crack while other authors bore me (or make me laugh derisively) with sex scene cliches?

So, at least for me, huge YES. If nothing else, all the wrong notes REALLY stand out when you listen to your own playing.

 

[rgraham666]

Sort of related to this, one of my best stories, which had been rated in the top 10 since it posted lost 72 votes last week. And now sits in the fifties last I checked.

I figure Lit sweeps not only trolls but extra 5 votes as well. That's the only way that I can explain the behaviour I noted.

And I don't care. I've got a ton of comments, most of them pretty damn good.

 

[cloudy]

I am maybe going slightly off-topic here, but I am interested in this comment about feedback from authors you respect.

I'm a musician and I have regularly had chats about how musicians view music very differently to how non-musicians listen. I recall how I listened to tracks by artists like the Who when growing up and how differently I now listen to them having recorded, mixed, engineered and produced music. My perception is totally different; I now sometimes listen to how a song is put together, what the production is like and wonder how I might have done it differently.

Do people find themseves in the same position with writing? Once they start to write do they think more about the language, the punctuation, the style etc, rather than just enjoying (or not) the story?!

Non-mucisians beyond any shadow of a doubt listen to music differently to musicians. Is the same true of authors and non-authors?!

For me, yes. Where I used to read purely for enjoyment, and still do, things jump out at me, like grammar, etc. - it didn't used to happen.

I'll read a phrase that I would have enjoyed before, but now it's so beautiful it sticks in my memory, and won't leave. A careless mistake that I would have skipped over, and forgotten, can ruin a passage for me now.

Definitely akin to a musician listening to music.

Cloudy, having ANY award or even an almost ran on a writing resume is a good thing. Editors will look at you more closely and might give you more of a chance. If I don't have voting turned on, I can't be in the running for any Literotica contest, which means no possibility, however remote, of getting that little tidbit for a resume.

I think you're overestimating the power of Literotica, although I wish it was so. I've won two contests, and a poem took it's category one month. Yet, I still face the uphill battle everyone else does. I admire your optimism, however misplaced I believe it is.

 

[ILCHANTILLY]

Voting ideas

Maybe instead of voting, the stories should be rated on the ammount of times they are read. Since it is very rare that we get feedback in here, maybe that would be the best indicator of a story or poems worth. The best seller list is based on sales, so why not have a Literotica most read list??

Just a thought.

 

[cloudy]

Maybe instead of voting, the stories should be rated on the ammount of times they are read. Since it is very rare that we get feedback in here, maybe that would be the best indicator of a story or poems worth. The best seller list is based on sales, so why not have a Literotica most read list??

Just a thought.

There is one, right here.

 

[Guest]

I think you're overestimating the power of Literotica, although I wish it was so. I've won two contests, and a poem took it's category one month. Yet, I still face the uphill battle everyone else does. I admire your optimism, however misplaced I believe it is.

Entirely possible, Cloudy. I wouldn't put it past myself.

Then again, maybe I'm just wound up because Something Doesn't Work Right. I've been known to get wound about things like that.

Still, since in the little world of Literotica, the numbers DO matter -- even the toughest egos will feel the judgement of others -- I just think they should work as intended. For those who are more fragile, the catch-22 that exists can be much harder. If you are really telling me that posting my stories to Literotica is purely an ego exericise, then you're giving me important information that I need to look elsewhere for a venue, and Literotica is not the place I'd hoped and thought it was.

And, of course, if this place is ever to be something other than "Just literotica", that's what has to happen. Would it be such a bad thing if Literotica -- which has involved the efforts of so many all across the world -- to become a "known" next of new and upcoming erotica authors? Would it be a bad thing to have a Literotica award in your resume be something worthwhile to have? It doesn't have to become an "elitist" organization -- if nothing else, it would add power to the reader, since their actual opinion would be more accurately recorded and made known.

 

[York]

As I've posted elsewhere in a similar thread, I think maybe people should have to be signed in to vote. It would then be easy to make sure they only voted once and suspicious voting to bring down rivals' scores would be easy to spot.

 

[cloudy]

Entirely possible, Cloudy. I wouldn't put it past myself.

Then again, maybe I'm just wound up because Something Doesn't Work Right. I've been known to get wound about things like that.

Still, since in the little world of Literotica, the numbers DO matter -- even the toughest egos will feel the judgement of others -- I just think they should work as intended. For those who are more fragile, the catch-22 that exists can be much harder. If you are really telling me that posting my stories to Literotica is purely an ego exericise, then you're giving me important information that I need to look elsewhere for a venue, and Literotica is not the place I'd hoped and thought it was.

And, of course, if this place is ever to be something other than "Just literotica", that's what has to happen. Would it be such a bad thing if Literotica -- which has involved the efforts of so many all across the world -- to become a "known" next of new and upcoming erotica authors? Would it be a bad thing to have a Literotica award in your resume be something worthwhile to have? It doesn't have to become an "elitist" organization -- if nothing else, it would add power to the reader, since their actual opinion would be more accurately recorded and made known.

I think if you take what the site has to offer, and use it, it's a good thing.

The Story Discussion Board will disect a story for you, just in return for two critiques of other stories. It can be harsh, and mighty hard on the ego, but it will help your writing skills.

The Authors Hangout has been an endless resource for me. Not only do we kid around, but we also talk about writing, participate in writing challenges, get to know other authors (maybe some we feel are better than we are), and I have never, ever asked for help with something there and not been immediately flooded with offers of help, advice, etc. When I need an editor, or just a proofreader, all I have to do is ask. I edit, but most of those I edit for are authors I've met in the AH.

Need help with research? The AH will help you there, as well. The range of ages and experiences is so wide that someone will be able to tell you exactly what you need to know, or at least point you to someplace where you'll be able to learn it.

Several authors there are published (I edit for one of them), and we have four editions of an anthology out for purchase with the proceeds going to a free speech organization - all of it brought together by authors in the AH.

I think too many look at the votes and contests as the end-all be-all, and for me, at least, that's just an extra. The real value of Literotica lies in the people that are striving, just like me, to make an impact on a reader, and are quick to hold out a hand to offer help, or just be a friend.

Why not take advantage of everything that you are offered here, instead of focusing only on votes and contests? I think you would be much more satisfied with the end result if you did. So, yes, it's "just Literotica," but like most things, it is what you make of it.

Just my two cents.

 

[Sissy Adele Howells]

My latest story takes plunge

Hi
I agree my latest story started with a 5 and has plunged to a 3 after only two votes. The way I look at it is that the people who really like your story, don't really vote at all. Why can't a fairer system be used?
SISSY ADELE

 

[kbate]

Hi
I agree my latest story started with a 5 and has plunged to a 3 after only two votes. The way I look at it is that the people who really like your story, don't really vote at all. Why can't a fairer system be used?
SISSY ADELE

It is possible that some people actually read your story and do not like it, even hate it.

If you have two votes, and one is a 5 (your vote?) the other is obviously a one if your average is now 3.

2 votes is not enough to lodge a complaint.

fyi, I voted on your story. :emoticon:

i voted 4 in case you look here.

 

[Sissy Adele Howells]

I did not put in vote

When you say (my vote) do you mean that I put this in? Honestly I didnt. I have never voted on my own stuff. Didnt know you were allowed to. Anyway understand what you mean

 

[kbate]

When you say (my vote) do you mean that I put this in? Honestly I didnt. I have never voted on my own stuff. Didnt know you were allowed to. Anyway understand what you mean

Not an accusation, only a comment. I always vote on my own. I don't know if it counts or gets swept away in the "good troll" sweep, but as with the presidential election, I choose to show that I like my own work, (drivel that it is).

 

[Sissy Adele Howells]

good idea thanks

Hi,
Thanks for your reply. There is no rule to say that you can't vote on your own is there . I enjoy your comments.
ADELE

 

[george55]

Reader's Opinion

I have found many authors on this site do not respond to e-mail. I didn't want to say most but it is true. Because of this, I find myself voting less. Several times when I posted a reply on the public site it would end up with arguments among readers. When i reply privately only a few have taken the time to say thanks, or even say they didn't agree to it. I find myself reading without voting or posting.

I also think a 1-10 voting system is better. A 5 equates to 100 o/o and 4 to 75 o/o. Too much wiggle room and it doesn't say the right thing. Very few stories deserve 100; but 75 equates to a "c" in my book and there is a lt of room in between.

'for what it's worth'

 

[Guest]

I have found many authors on this site do not respond to e-mail. I didn't want to say most but it is true. Because of this, I find myself voting less. Several times when I posted a reply on the public site it would end up with arguments among readers. When i reply privately only a few have taken the time to say thanks, or even say they didn't agree to it. I find myself reading without voting or posting.

I, too, have commented or written to authors who never responded. I make it a point to respond to anyone who comments to me. I think it is important for an author to monitor the comments made and respond, but some people just may not know what to say.

 

[george55]

Reply

"thank you", "ouch", "screw you(f...u)", "I understand what you are saying but I won't change what I've written, it came from inside me(I have actually had this response)"
, the great winner; "where are you published", "let me see your work", "where did you get your education". Any reply is better than none.

One author put a particular age to a car and it was wrong. He didn't understand why it made a difference. I tried to explain if it was important enough to be in the story, it was important enough to be right.

'for what it's worth'

 

[Guest]

The feedback conundrum

"thank you", "ouch", "screw you(f...u)", "I understand what you are saying but I won't change what I've written, it came from inside me(I have actually had this response)"
, the great winner; "where are you published", "let me see your work", "where did you get your education". Any reply is better than none.

One author put a particular age to a car and it was wrong. He didn't understand why it made a difference. I tried to explain if it was important enough to be in the story, it was important enough to be right.

'for what it's worth'

It's a problem to be willing to give feedback to people who say they want it, only to have it rejected. I'll bet a lot of writers who post here don't realize what they do when they ask for feedback, and a fair share of readers don't realize what they do when they give feedback.

There are a lot of "young" writers here -- young as in this might be their first attempt at writing, or their first exposure to an audience that isn't made up of friends, and they haven't had the maturing experiences of someone who has been writing and getting feedback for a while. Not everyone who wants to be a writer or attempts writing is really ready for all the stuff that goes with it -- feedback is a lot harder to take than most of us think, especially on writing because writing is so personal.

Literotica is a pretty good place to learn how to take feedback, but it can also be really tough for people who aren't quite prepared for the realities of it. Even when you are prepared, when you've had practice at it, when you've taken severe rejection and kept on writing, it can tear the heart right out of you. Some people are never able to accept feedback, even when they ask for it. because their writing is just too personal, or they get overwhelmed with feeling like they failed.

As hard as it is to take feedback, it's also tricky to give feedback. You probably know about the whole "sandwich" thing of putting a negative between two positives. After all, even giving feedback on a factual issue can come across as simply a test of dominance -- "I'm right and you're wrong" -- which few people are prepared to accept gracefully.

I got into a discussion with a reader on another story because I had used the American spelling of a word and he'd "corrected" me to the British spelling. I cited the Merriam-Webster I used, he cited the OED as a superior reference (that didn't include the American spelling, according to him. I couldn't check the OED for myself because the online version requires a subscription.) At some point, I had to shrug and let it go because, technically, we were both "right" and neither of us were going to make the other change. As the reader, his choice was not to read my stories. As author, mine was to write to the best of my knowledge and ability. As much as I might want to please readers, I will never please everyone. I can't possibly own every reference, or even the best references.

When I get feedback, I have to pick and chose what I can and can't use. So, was his feedback "useful" to me? Not really, because the only thing he said at all was about the spelling of one word. I could ASSUME that he liked the story since he bothered to comment to me, but it FELT as if his only point was to say "I'm right, you're wrong, and you should change to please me."

It's even more interesting when a story has been workshopped and you get conflicting feedback on the same point. Who's "right"? Well, the one the author picks, be it feedback A, feedback B or what was there originally -- or a whole new approach from the author.

I actually agree with you that if a detail is important enough to put in a story, it's important enough to look up and get right. But it can get ridiculous. I once spent 4 hours trying to determine when terrycloth towels came into common use for a detail in a story. After delving into the history of woven textiles, learning a lot about cloth, and picking up a ton terminology I had to research more to understand, I finally decided the type of towel wasn't that important and the reader could fill in the detail according to what they knew. If the towel had been more important, I'd have spent another two hours on it, or I might have just chosen something and gone with it, right or wrong, because there was more story to write, I couldn't find an answer, and I was fed up with it.

For some readers, that towel detail might have been important. Others would have passed it by without a thought. There's no way to know and a writer has to make a choice at some point. And I've heard some published authors say that they can always depend on a reader somewhere to point out their mistakes

In the end, I guess it's important to realize that some people can be as attached to their feedback comments as the writer is to the work being commented upon. It's a point of friction and conflict. The only way I know to solve it is to back off, either way, and put the writing outside of the person. Not easy, not easy at all, but I haven't found anything else that works for me.

 

[george55]

Strange

Isn't it a shame, the two largest english speaking countries in the world use a different dictionary. I try to make sure the nationality of the author before I put my foot in it.

The one thing I try to give insight on, is the use of the word 'that'. Reading books, edited professionally, the issue does not arise. But amatuers have such a time with it. For myself, I try to highlight every use and decide if used wrong or not needed. It hurts to hear 'that' instead of 'who'. My mother, the vala. for a small school in West Virginia in the 30's, taught me what she thought was the correct use and it has helped in countless papers written over the years. She also had a thing about 'got'. To this day, reading the word hurts my ear.


I do have a question of someone else, because I have received varying opinions. Small point but it has come up often. I always put the period inside double quotations, but outside a single one. My editor says it should always be inside. ?

I gave feedback on four stories yesterday and only received response from author on SOL. Goes to my point.

I appreciate this dialogue.

thank you

scott

 

[Guest]

Isn't it a shame, the two largest english speaking countries in the world use a different dictionary. I try to make sure the nationality of the author before I put my foot in it.

The one thing I try to give insight on, is the use of the word 'that'. Reading books, edited professionally, the issue does not arise. But amatuers have such a time with it. For myself, I try to highlight every use and decide if used wrong or not needed. It hurts to hear 'that' instead of 'who'. My mother, the vala. for a small school in West Virginia in the 30's, taught me what she thought was the correct use and it has helped in countless papers written over the years. She also had a thing about 'got'. To this day, reading the word hurts my ear.

I do have a question of someone else, because I have received varying opinions. Small point but it has come up often. I always put the period inside double quotations, but outside a single one. My editor says it should always be inside. ?

I gave feedback on four stories yesterday and only received response from author on SOL. Goes to my point.

I appreciate this dialogue.

thank you

scott

I'm laughing about the "got" and "That" things. Everyone has grammatical sore points. My latest sticky point is "whose" and "Who's" -- I'm constantly mixing them up. I've finally trained myself to use "its" and "it's" correctly.

I find I often leave "that" out where others think it belongs. I don't think it's always useful, rather causing word clutter instead of clarification. And there's the ever present "Have got" -- which can make many folks with a grammatical bend climb up a wall.

As for the comments, unless the person has the commentary set to mail to them or checks their stats daily, it may be the authors have not yet seen your contributions. I don't see anyone's comments on my story until I go to my stats page and check, and even then it may take me a day or so to think of something appropriate to say in reply. Sometimes "thank you" isn't exactly the right phrase :>

On the period thing, I've always thought it was conditional. I'd have to check references, but my understanding is where end-punctutation goes with quotes depends on the material being quoted and some other factors, such as how it affects readability. In dialog, the period or any end-punctuation goes inside the quotation mark because the period belongs only to the dialog (or inverse comma, as someone across the pond just told me they are called. I'll stick with "quotation marks"). When setting off a phrase or quoting material inside a sentence, I've always understood end-punctuation to go outside the quotation, as the period belongs to the sentence as a whole, not the quoted material.

However, as two widely spaced trips through college and two different editions of of the MLA guidelines demonstrated to me, rules change. When it doubt, I always go for the oldest interpretation of a rule. When in school, I do it like the teacher says just to save arguing. Where nothing else works, I read the damn thing out loud, and listen to see if the punctuation provides the right cues for understandability.

I'm trying to remember the author in question -- A French one, possibly 19th century -- who, when a friend asked what he had done all morning, replied, "I debated and finally removed a comma." When asked what he did all afternoon, he said "I put it back in again." Damn, now I have to go look it up!