Are acts of service sexual?

[CutieMouse]

I was talking to a Dom online last night and we were discussing that I don't want to stop dating at the moment and am not interested in a contract type relationship, but he expected a sub to ONLY sub to him.

My response was I agreed when it came to sexual submission, but I didn't feel I'd be able to stop doing acts of service for some people who are very dear to me. I cater to/take care of/and sub to them as an expression of my love and respect for them. I know right now- it would just about kill me to stop it. I'd be miserable.

His response (since it was primarily a woman friend I was speaking of) was to ask if my service subbing was a sexual thing. I'd already explained I don't serve her sexually, but rather domesticly. He would have an issue if my acts of service were sexualized because that would make him uncomfortable. Okaaaaay.

So it made me think. *Are* acts of service as a sub a sexual thing also? I think for me it is and isn't. I get similar pleasure from knowing my friends will unexpectedly come home to a clean house with dinner in the oven, as I do to serving someone sexually. The act of pleasing triggers me in both situations. So I couldn't really answer his question very clearly, and my hamsters started regenerating to focus on the questions it created in my head. LOL

(Note to self- when you forget to capitalize "He/Him" except at the beginning of a sentence and you tend to stay very aware of such things, it probably means this guy didn't leave a very strong impression and doesn't need THAT much energy in the grand scheme of things. LOL)

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Click me.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Ok, i'll ponder out loud and see where it leads.

I do not see the acts of service as a sexual thing, I see them as different facets of submission, but, unless you are doing these things butt-naked or dressed only in a skimpy little maid's outfit, for the express purpose of a scene (a discovery that things aren't being done right and therefore punishement needed etc) it is not sexual.

Yes your submissive nature gains pleasure from having performed a service for your friend,. But unless said service was done with the expectation of a sexual reward for a job well done, or a punishement of some sort for a job badly done how can it be sexual?

Do you get "wet" after your friend tells you how much she appreciates the help?

In short, i think the two are seperate.

As with all my comments, they are seldom completely thought through as I write them, so feel free to disagree or clarify a point. I also reserve the right to change my mind on a point should subsequent discussion warrant it.

 

[shaymless]

I tend to respond to the dominance in a person rather than their sexuality, so for me the D/s portion of BDSM is not at all sexual. I've spent many a happy hour doing service for a female dominant with nary a sexual thought or feeling and still felt fulfilled as a submissive.

So my answer is: no, for me. Service acts are not necessarily sexual. They are submissive.

Insert usual disclaimers here,
shay

 

[graceanne]

I agree. If every act of service was sexual, I'd never stay up with my sick child all night again. For that matter, I do service acts for my mother and my sisters and my brothers. That's also not sexual. Actually not all service acts I do for Kenny are sexual either. Believe me I get no sexual feelings for rubbing Vicks Vapo Rub on his chest when he's sick. Or washing his socks, or making his lunch. You get the idea.

 

[graceanne]

I tend to respond to the dominance in a person rather than their sexuality, so for me the D/s portion of BDSM is not at all sexual. I've spent many a happy hour doing service for a female dominant with nary a sexual thought or feeling and still felt fulfilled as a submissive.

So my answer is: no, for me. Service acts are not necessarily sexual. They are submissive.

Insert usual disclaimers here,
shay

I don't know if I think that acts of service are just submissive either. My husband is great with me and being sick, he's doing stuff for me all the time. It's not submissive, it's caring. I care, not lust (although in K's case theirs that too ), for the people I do things for. So I'd say that acts of service is showing caring or love. Not just lust.

 

[shaymless]

don't know if I think that acts of service are just submissive either. My husband is great with me and being sick, he's doing stuff for me all the time. It's not submissive, it's caring. I care, not lust (although in K's case theirs that too ), for the people I do things for. So I'd say that acts of service is showing caring or love. Not just lust.

I agree completely. I also enjoy caring for my friends and family in small ways

I was speaking primarily in a BDSM context. I get a different feeling from opening my mouth as an ashtray or being a foot stool than I do from taking care of a sick friend or running errands for an elderly relative.

The former is submissive for me because I responded to someone's dominance. The latter is just being a good person.
If my best friend told me to open my mouth so she could flick her ash on my tongue, I'd tell her to get f*cked. And not by me

Hope this clarifies

shay

 

[shaymless]

total hijack

And YAY I'm not a virgin anymo'.

 

[graceanne]

I agree completely. I also enjoy caring for my friends and family in small ways

I was speaking primarily in a BDSM context. I get a different feeling from opening my mouth as an ashtray or being a foot stool than I do from taking care of a sick friend or running errands for an elderly relative.

The former is submissive for me because I responded to someone's dominance. The latter is just being a good person.
If my best friend told me to open my mouth so she could flick her ash on my tongue, I'd tell her to get f*cked. And not by me

Hope this clarifies

shay

LOL Ah, that's awefully close minded of you. I would let my best friend put her ashes in my mouth. (NOT) On the other hand, I can totally see her asking, just for the shock value of such a statement. *giggles*

And yes, it does. Clarify things that is. lol

 

[graceanne]

Re: total hijack

And YAY I'm not a virgin anymo'.

So . .. who got your cherry?

 

[Kajira Callista]

I have a different view. I find doing anything for my Dominant sexually stimulating. When given, during and when completing a task i am aroused. It doesnt matter if it is acknowledged or not, i dont need a "good girl" or permission to come or any reward. It has to do with doing it for Him i think... and it seems to be a response i can not stop from happening.
Doing things for other people doesnt bring the same physical response though. I just am considered Ms Dependable and ppl always come to me when they need stuff. I do it because i enjoy pleasing and helping other ppl.

 

[CutieMouse]

I have a different view. I find doing anything for my Dominant sexually stimulating. When given, during and when completing a task i am aroused. It doesnt matter if it is acknowledged or not, i dont need a "good girl" or permission to come or any reward. It has to do with doing it for Him i think... and it seems to be a response i can not stop from happening.
Doing things for other people doesnt bring the same physical response though. I just am considered Ms Dependable and ppl always come to me when they need stuff. I do it because i enjoy pleasing and helping other ppl.

That makes perfect sense to me, and I've realized this week I'm the same way. sigh. I'm still having a surreal week....

 

[Sir_Winston54]

[snip] I find doing anything for my Dominant sexually stimulating. When given, during and when completing a task i am aroused. It doesnt matter if it is acknowledged or not, i dont need a "good girl" or permission to come or any reward. It has to do with doing it for Him i think... and it seems to be a response i can not stop from happening.[/snip]

From a PYL's point of view, I think this type of reaction is a good thing, for both me and a pyl. It certainly doesn't/wouldn't bother me to know that my pyl is excited/aroused/stimulated while doing a task for me.

I believe that both members of any long-term relationship - D/s or 'nilla - need to gain satisfaction (of some sort) from the relationship, if it is to have any chance of survival. If my pyl is aroused by performing the tasks that I set her, then she is gaining a measure of satisfaction besides the sense of accomplishment of that comes from doing something right, or well. The more satisfaction she receives from the relationship, the more likely it is to "work."

Additionally, from a purely selfish point of view, if I know that she is aroused from doing a task for me, it simply makes it that much more convenient for me to either reward her with complete satisfaction (e.g., orgasm), or to use her to accomplish my own gratification. (And I've found that in most instances, an aroused pyl is, for some reason, much more likely to please me physically, or to please me to a greater degree, than one who simply "accepts" what I wish done, or to do. {This does not, obviously, include the quick-fuck scenarios, but that's not usually my forte, anyway, except perhaps for the occasional quick face-fuck.})

So - IMNSHO - I think it's perfectly appropriate, in some service relationships, for the pyl to be aroused or gain some measure of sexual satisfaction from performing service.

But that's just me YMMV

 

[catalina_francisco]

My response was I agreed when it came to sexual submission, but I didn't feel I'd be able to stop doing acts of service for some people who are very dear to me. I cater to/take care of/and sub to them as an expression of my love and respect for them. I know right now- it would just about kill me to stop it. I'd be miserable.

His response (since it was primarily a woman friend I was speaking of) was to ask if my service subbing was a sexual thing. I'd already explained I don't serve her sexually, but rather domesticly. He would have an issue if my acts of service were sexualized because that would make him uncomfortable. Okaaaaay.
[/COLOR]

Hello CutieMouse,

I found your post to be interesting and also puzzling to me. Although I can see that basic subservient needs will be answered when performing service orientated services for others. I do not see it as being submissive unless the persons you are subservient to are actually dominating.

As a PYL I would never allow my pyl to submit to anyone else without my permission. It has been my experience that most Dominants have similar thought patterns. To me it being sexual or not is absolutely irrelevant.

However fulfilling subservient needs by helping others without them actually taking control, without them being Dominant to me would be perfectly acceptable as long as those subservient acts do not intervene with a pyl’s prime responsibility, which is of course the serve their PYL.


However of course it is for the PYL and pyl to make their own agreements.

Francisco.

 

[graceanne]

Re: Re: Are acts of service sexual?

Hello CutieMouse,

I found your post to be interesting and also puzzling to me. Although I can see that basic subservient needs will be answered when performing service orientated services for others. I do not see it as being submissive unless the persons you are subservient to are actually dominating.

That's a really good point. Just because you're doing something for someone doesn't mean that you are subbing to them. Even if they are a dom/me, it's not like they are standing in leather, cracking a whip over you. (now there's a mental picture - *giggles*

 

[CutieMouse]

I define it as subbing to M for instance, because she was the first one to notice it. She doesn't expect it or demand it, but we've talked enough about how I click that she noticed my expression/continence/whatever as me being in "happy subbie land" even though it was just doing stuff for her. LOL

It's probably not a *true* submission in the same way it would be for a Master/PYL, but it's subbie enough that she commented on it, as did a few other people who know me well enough to know that part of me. I wanted to be clear with the gentleman I was speaking with that I didn't consider that to be something I'd be willing to cease doing, so we could negotiate where we saw ourselves at.

Comparing what I do for M to helping out someone else this week doing similar service acts was fascinating though. With M I get no sexual response from it at all... from this other person? Achingly frustrated but still happy to be doing a good job. LOL

 

[catalina_francisco]

Please do not take this personal, because it is not meant as such. Let me start by saying that I have absolutely no problems with your definition of submission, you are a unique individual and so is your own definition of submission.

There is one point I would like to raise though, what about the person you are submitting to? Have you taken into account their feelings and wishes? The moment you use them to have your submissive feelings fulfilled you are involving them in a BDSM scene which they might well have strong moral objections to if they would be aware of your intentions.

When you service them (sound as if you are servicing their car ;-)) you know the persons involved and I am sure that if you knew they would have strong moral objections you would not get yourself involved in such. I just want to point out that it is important to take the person’s feelings, thoughts, morals and ethics into account.

One of the basic rules which is IMHO important to follow when doing scenes and playing is that you never involve a person against their wishes and knowledge and this certainly applies to NON-BDSM persons.

Francisco.

 

[NCShin]

I'm with francisco on this...

I would feel that you were cheating if you were subing to anyone else without my direction to do so.

So I'd agree with whoever you were talking with. Honestly if you want to continue with the person you're with, then you aren't ready to look for someone else.

Then again, you could keep looking and find a dom who wouldn't mind, i'm sure there are plenty who wouldn't.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... There is one point I would like to raise though, what about the person you are submitting to? Have you taken into account their feelings and wishes? The moment you use them to have your submissive feelings fulfilled you are involving them in a BDSM scene which they might well have strong moral objections to if they would be aware of your intentions...

Francisco.

Excellent point. Especially this... "The moment you use them to have your submissive feelings fulfilled..."

Using someone to fulfill MY submissive needs? I can't recall ever doing this nor would I ever knowingly do it. It smacks to me of forcing myself (even subtly) on a Dominant, in order to satisfy my own desires.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Excellent point. Especially this... "The moment you use them to have your submissive feelings fulfilled..."

Using someone to fulfill MY submissive needs? I can't recall ever doing this nor would I ever knowingly do it. It smacks to me of forcing myself (even subtly) on a Dominant, in order to satisfy my own desires.

Agreed ADR. To some extent I would feel as though it were taking control from the Dominant or person chosen to whom to submit to. It may just be a matter of taste but I feel to submit to another I at least have to involve them in the process of acknowledging and accepting my submission. Caring is all good IMO, and I doubt there is anyone who does not do something for someone they feel needs or would appreciate help or assistance at some point, but I don't identify it as submission otherwise that makes us all, Dominants included, submissives.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

Agreed ADR. To some extent I would feel as though it were taking control from the Dominant or person chosen to whom to submit to. It may just be a matter of taste but I feel to submit to another I at least have to involve them in the process of acknowledging and accepting my submission. Caring is all good IMO, and I doubt there is anyone who does not do something for someone they feel needs or would appreciate help or assistance at some point, but I don't identify it as submission otherwise that makes us all, Dominants included, submissives.

Catalina

Yes, exactly and very well stated.

As strong as my need to submit sometimes becomes, as much as I occassionally ache to give myself to someone, I could never use another to fulfill this. I have to know that He knows, accepts and most importantly, WANTS my submission. I don't want to get into the hearts and flowers of all this but, for me, this is not just a casual thing.

I would want Him to want me as much as I would want to submit and please Him.

I also want to add that I have not read this thread previous to Francisco's post. I have no idea how off topic I am here or if I am. If I am, I apologize.

 

[CutieMouse]

This is why I love Lit. Now I have new perspectives to think about. I'm not offended in the least and appreciate the discussion greatly.

The gentleman who origionally prompted the thought in my head and I have agreed we don't spark each other enough for it to be worth persuing things. As for M- it doesn't bug her. I know it doesn't because she'd tell me and when we've discussed it she's said it's not annoying or bothersome, she sees it as a mix of subbing-type behaviour and us being best friends. I need to examine that some more, because ya'll made some good points.

Actually I'm starting to think maybe I need to keep sitting in my head and learning more before I try this whole sub thing IRL in any way shape or form- even taking care of friends. Sigh. Every time I start to feel like I've gotten even a little of my kink sorted out it twists again and I start wondering when I'll finally get all the knots undone.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Sometimes it is also a lot of fun to just try out some mild stuff in a safe environment. A very good tradition is to find a mentor. My advice would be to find a female sub mentor and take your time but also do not be afraid to try things out. It is a long road where you will be surprised many times; I have been doing this for a while and still learn new things and new ways every day.

Thing is to not be afraid and be open for new experiences and new knowledge and never think you know everything. In a way I envy you, there are so many wondrous and new things for you to discover, so many delightful surprises.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

I have a very different outlook and value system, apparently.

Personally, I think that any time a submissive has an opportunity to focus on service, getting better at it, refining their sense of service, is a good opportunity. I hate being obligated to fulfill every "subbie need" for someone, that's not why I'm here.

If someone else can reinforce my submissive's sense of "place" without necessarily conflicting with my values and rules for that person, I'm in favor.

I have a girl who periodically gets sent to me by her wife because I "keep her in line" and also because I challenge her and meet her maso-service needs without it being all on her wife to meet them. Sometimes we play with a sexual component, often not. She never knws which it might be, and while the sexual motivates her a lot, she knows that whining about it will only kill her chances of getting any kind of sexuality added to the kink.

 

[dragonlace]

For me when i do things for others, its because of my giving nature. I am a giver as well as a submissive, i tend to give freely of myself but that doesn't mean i submit to anyone other than my Master. I enjoy helping others and doing things for others but I do it of my own free will not because i am submitting to them.

When doing service oriented things for Him i tend to be more enthusiastic about those things and i want them to be done right and well so He will be pleased but they are not always sexually arousing things and then sometimes they are. Sometimes the simplist thing will be sexually arousing and at other times its just a normal request. I guess it depends on my mood and the way the task is brought about.

If for instance He were to tell me to wash the dishes of course i would do it but then too if He were to pull my hair and forcefully grab me and whisper it into my ear then i would be full of sexual tension the entire time i was doing it. So i guess it all depends on the circumstances surrounding the task.