Arcs and flaws

[ElectricBlue]

As someone for whom plot is a challenge, I find that inspiring. I have had a whole set up for “the next one” for several weeks, and I still have not worked out “what will happen.”

In real life, do you wait to work out what will happen, or do you just keep going and see what happens? That's how I write - keep going and see what happens. Something always does - that's how life works, too. Little slices of life, is how I see most of my stories. With sexual fantasies happening, instead of train wrecks and job promotions. It's not the front page of the paper!

 

[Bubo_bubo]

As someone for whom plot is a challenge, I find that inspiring. I have had a whole set up for “the next one” for several weeks, and I still have not worked out “what will happen.”

I have the opposite problem. Plot seems to keep happening in my porn.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

In real life, do you wait to work out what will happen, or do you just keep going and see what happens? That's how I write - keep going and see what happens. Something always does - that's how life works, too. Little slices of life, is how I see most of my stories. With sexual fantasies happening, instead of train wrecks and job promotions. It's not the front page of the paper!

In real life, do you wait to work out what will happen, or do you just keep going and see what happens? That's how I write - keep going and see what happens. Something always does - that's how life works, too. Little slices of life, is how I see most of my stories. With sexual fantasies happening, instead of train wrecks and job promotions. It's not the front page of the paper!

In real life or in real life writing? In real life, i try to ”look down the road as far as I could“ as Frost writes. In real life writing, I mostly write scenes with my people. I know how things will eventually end but not how to get there so I sort of just listen to them say and do whatever with the goal (if there is one) of exploring their reactions and enjoying spending time with them.

When i did the Greek fantasy (my story rather than a retelling, btw, as I have come to know that I accidentally sent at least one person on a wild goose chase for the “original myth”), I started with a vague idea of how it would end but it morphed in detail when I started on the last segment. I had at first no plan or thought to use Dionysus, but he somehow just crept in there at the last minute because I remembered him from Euripides’ “The Bacchae.” I did not, however, succeed in conveying the strange, mesmerizing menace of that original character. Unfortunately. If i redid that story even though i was told not to, i would probably stick him in there sooner and try for it in a serious way. As far as “the sex” was concerned, I was just trying to imitate what I read and also trying to see if I could write it with anything resembling verisimilitude.

Thank you for the question. It was fun to think out the answer.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sick of conflict in the real world and sick of it in fiction. A couple of years ago, I started reading romance novels because I couldn't stand the torture porn masquerading as Nordic Noir, edgy thrillers. I don't care if the detective is a glass-ceilinged female who is never taken seriously. It's torture porn.

When I say "conflict", in this context, I don't mean specifically violent conflict.

Romance is mostly low on violence, especially on that kind of "torture porn" violence. But one of the most popular patterns for a romance story is "can their love for one another overcome the forces trying to divide them?" and in storytelling terms that's conflict, whether those forces happen to be armed soldiers, meddling rivals, or just their own hangups.

Some of the conflicts I've encountered in romances:
- He wants to tell her the truth about who she is, but he's afraid that if he does she'll reject him
- She makes a bad impression on his family and then has to overcome that
- She's an older woman who's lost most of her friends and a previous lover to old age, and is afraid of getting attached to another woman her old age for fear of going through that loss yet again.
- He travels a lot, she can't because she has an elderly father, and she needs somebody who's going to stay
- She's insecure and can't accept his love because she can't believe somebody would find her lovable
- He's an escort and hates what he does (and I, in turn, hated the way this particular trope was handled, but that's another matter)
- He's falling in love with her but doesn't want to act on it because he's afraid of being like his asshole father.
- They married young, for the wrong reasons, it ended badly. She faked her death and ran off to fight in the American Revolution, disguised as a man. Then by chance they meet again and realise they do care for one another, but need to get past the past hurts they've caused one another.

Also a couple where the romance itself is relatively straightforward, but interacts with some conflict outside the romance: two people each have their own struggles, but when they get together, they form a partnership and help one another through those challenges.

A long life well lived. Sex with people you care about. Elvis comes to mind. "What so funny 'bout peace, love, and understanding."

Elvis did a great cover, but Nick Lowe wrote and originally performed that one.

 

[ElectricBlue]

In real life or in real life writing? In real life, i try to ”look down the road as far as I could“ as Frost writes. In real life writing, I mostly write scenes with my people. I know how things will eventually end but not how to get there so I sort of just listen to them say and do whatever with the goal (if there is one) of exploring their reactions and enjoying spending time with them.

Both, I reckon. I call a lot of my stuff "urban erotica" because much of it is very day to day, about ordinary people going through their tedium of life. I wrote the first Floating World story during a very bad professional time, where I did not enjoy going to work. The women in the morning cafes (the story opens with three 98% true vignettes - the 2% being a fantasy sentence or two in each vignette) were the only people keeping me sane.

Having said that, my content also goes were gender changing mermaids go, alien angels and astronauts, fantastic gentleman spiders, and a very long take on the Arthurian myth. So some of it is more made up!

 

[JGittes]

Elvis did a great cover, but Nick Lowe wrote and originally performed that one.

Nick Lowe also produced Elvis's cover.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Nick Lowe also produced Elvis's cover.

That I did not know. Got to hear Nick Lowe talking about the song and then performing it live a few years back, that was pretty good!

 

[SimonDoom]

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sick of conflict in the real world and sick of it in fiction. A couple of years ago, I started reading romance novels because I couldn't stand the torture porn masquerading as Nordic Noir,

I think this misunderstands what people are getting at when they use the word "conflict." Every romance novel I've ever read and every romance movie I've ever watched has conflict. "Conflict" in a romance novel simply means a barrier of some kind that prevents the lovers from getting together in the beginning. It's something that gives the lovers a challenge to surmount so that they can end up together. Every single romance I've ever watched or read fits this model. It doesn't have to be edgy or violent or dark.

In the classic gothic romance, the heroine is a plucky ingenue or is poor, and the hero is a wealthy or powerful man who has a secret. Pride and Prejudice. Jane Eyre. 50 Shades. Gone With The Wind.

Class differences are often important and are a source of conflict. That's true in all four stories I mentioned. A more contemporary twist is the Julia Roberts/Hugh Grant romantic comedy Notting Hill, where he's a middle-class book store owner in London and she's a world famous rich actress. The comedy and conflict of their differences drive the story.

In Groundhog Day Bill Murray's character encounters the conflict that he wants to become a better person and woo the Andi MacDowell character, but he keeps repeating the same day, over and over. This is a different kind of conflict, because it's an externally driven plot device, as opposed to conflict based on social differences. The extra conflict in the romance is driven by the fact that he starts out as a terrible person, and he must somehow convince her within the space of a single day that he's not.

In The Thorn Birds, the principal conflict is that the man is a priest and is much older than the woman who falls in love with him. He has moral and religious duties that forbid their union.

In most (though not all) great stories, characters go from point A to point B. Conflict is simply whatever accounts for the space between the two points and makes getting from one to the other interesting.

 

[SamScribble]

I think this misunderstands what people are getting at when they use the word "conflict." Every romance novel I've ever read and every romance movie I've ever watched has conflict. "Conflict" in a romance novel simply means a barrier of some kind that prevents the lovers from getting together in the beginning. It's something that gives the lovers a challenge to surmount so that they can end up together. Every single romance I've ever watched or read fits this model. It doesn't have to be edgy or violent or dark.

In the classic gothic romance, the heroine is a plucky ingenue or is poor, and the hero is a wealthy or powerful man who has a secret. Pride and Prejudice. Jane Eyre. 50 Shades. Gone With The Wind.

Class differences are often important and are a source of conflict. That's true in all four stories I mentioned. A more contemporary twist is the Julia Roberts/Hugh Grant romantic comedy Notting Hill, where he's a middle-class book store owner in London and she's a world famous rich actress. The comedy and conflict of their differences drive the story.

In Groundhog Day Bill Murray's character encounters the conflict that he wants to become a better person and woo the Andi MacDowell character, but he keeps repeating the same day, over and over. This is a different kind of conflict, because it's an externally driven plot device, as opposed to conflict based on social differences. The extra conflict in the romance is driven by the fact that he starts out as a terrible person, and he must somehow convince her within the space of a single day that he's not.

In The Thorn Birds, the principal conflict is that the man is a priest and is much older than the woman who falls in love with him. He has moral and religious duties that forbid their union.

In most (though not all) great stories, characters go from point A to point B. Conflict is simply whatever accounts for the space between the two points and makes getting from one to the other interesting.

If it is the word conflict that leads to misunderstanding, why not stop using the word conflict? Just a thought.

 

[SimonDoom]

If it is the word conflict that leads to misunderstanding, why not stop using the word conflict? Just a thought.

Because it has an extremely well-understood meaning in the context of literature, and the term has been used for a long time in this regard. What better word is there?

Google "conflict in literature" and you'll find many examples of this.

"Conflict" in the broad sense simply means things that oppose each other. It does not imply violence.

Some people who like to take a taxonomical approach describe six different conflicts that recur in literature:

1. Character v. self. Internal conflict. I want to have sex with person A but my scruples tell me I shouldn't.

2. Character v. character. 2 or more characters in conflict with each other. I want to have sex with person A but some difference between us keeps us apart.

3. Character v. nature. I want to have sex on top of a mountain but the weather is making it difficult to get there.

4. Character v. the supernatural. I want to have sex with a ghost.

5. Character v. technology. I want to prove I'm better at sex than a robot.

6. Character v. society. I want to have sex with person A but society disapproves of it.

All of these can have a role in erotica, but the conflicts that occur most often in erotica are:

1. Conflict between the main character and the character's personal scruples/morals about what one should or shouldn't do.
2. Conflict between two characters who are attracted to one another but have some kind of difference to overcome.
3. Conflict between a character and society's morals or mores.

I think "conflict" is just the right word to describe this rather broad set of situations.

 

[astushkin]

Some people who like to take a taxonomical approach describe six different conflicts that recur in literature:

1. Character v. self. Internal conflict. I want to have sex with person A but my scruples tell me I shouldn't.

2. Character v. character. 2 or more characters in conflict with each other. I want to have sex with person A but some difference between us keeps us apart.

3. Character v. nature. I want to have sex on top of a mountain but the weather is making it difficult to get there.

4. Character v. the supernatural. I want to have sex with a ghost.

5. Character v. technology. I want to prove I'm better at sex than a robot.

6. Character v. society. I want to have sex with person A but society disapproves of it.

That's a helpful way to look at it. My first novel had dramatic conflicts --- a love-hate hurdle for the erotic component, as well as a background revenge plot. In contrast, the novel I just finished writing is more understated in its conflicts, so I was fretting over arcs and flaws, worried that I hadn't given it enough bite. Looking at this list, it does actually have conflict types 1 and 6. Feeling better about having challenged myself to write something more subtle.

In conjunction with your recent thread about including taboo elements in writing, the thoughts expressed in this thread about conflict in stories inspired a thought experiment: I imagined a Lit story completely free of conflict... maybe about an established happy couple who have a nice romantic weekend getaway, everything goes perfectly --- good conversation, fun activities, no fights, and they have fulfilling vanilla sex. It's a pleasant scenario, and I would sign up for it in real life with my guy --- but if I were looking around on Lit for an erotic read, I'd give that story a pass. When reading, some sort of conflict in the story is more appealing to me personally.

 

[ElectricBlue]

3. Character v. nature. I want to have sex on top of a mountain but the weather is making it difficult to get there.

4. Character v. the supernatural. I want to have sex with a ghost.

Lol. At first brush, I misread No.4 as "goat" not "ghost", possibly because yesterday I saw a cute vid of a bloke on a high mountain path coming across a pair of inquisitive goats - and your No.3 had set my brain up for an unnecessary confluence. But, it being a Simon post, anything could be up for grabs... But not here on Lit, not goats.

 

[SimonDoom]

Lol. At first brush, I misread No.4 as "goat" not "ghost", possibly because yesterday I saw a cute vid of a bloke on a high mountain path coming across a pair of inquisitive goats - and your No.3 had set my brain up for an unnecessary confluence. But, it being a Simon post, anything could be up for grabs... But not here on Lit, not goats.

"Goat." Hmmm. You know, EB, I don't judge.

 

[SamScribble]

Because it has an extremely well-understood meaning in the context of literature, and the term has been used for a long time in this regard. What better word is there?

Google "conflict in literature" and you'll find many examples of this.

"Conflict" in the broad sense simply means things that oppose each other. It does not imply violence.

Some people who like to take a taxonomical approach describe six different conflicts that recur in literature:

1. Character v. self. Internal conflict. I want to have sex with person A but my scruples tell me I shouldn't.

2. Character v. character. 2 or more characters in conflict with each other. I want to have sex with person A but some difference between us keeps us apart.

3. Character v. nature. I want to have sex on top of a mountain but the weather is making it difficult to get there.

4. Character v. the supernatural. I want to have sex with a ghost.

5. Character v. technology. I want to prove I'm better at sex than a robot.

6. Character v. society. I want to have sex with person A but society disapproves of it.

All of these can have a role in erotica, but the conflicts that occur most often in erotica are:

1. Conflict between the main character and the character's personal scruples/morals about what one should or shouldn't do.
2. Conflict between two characters who are attracted to one another but have some kind of difference to overcome.
3. Conflict between a character and society's morals or mores.

I think "conflict" is just the right word to describe this rather broad set of situations.

Gosh, sometimes when I come to Lit I wonder how on earth I have managed to earn a pretty decent living from my pen these past 60 and a bit years.

 

[ElectricBlue]

"Goat." Hmmm. You know, EB, I don't judge.

This, from the man who wrote Penis Fish!?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Gosh, sometimes when I come to Lit I wonder how on earth I have managed to earn a pretty decent living from my pen these past 60 and a bit years.

It's those young whipper snappers you've got to watch, Sam.

 

[Bubo_bubo]

"Goat." Hmmm. You know, EB, I don't judge.

"But you fuck one goat..."