Anyone familiar with publishing Fanfiction?

[Duleigh]

I'm getting some very encouraging feedback from my Geek Pride event entries:
The Gate - A New Green Man Appears by Duleigh
The Gate - Elvish Has Left by Duleigh
The Gate - Going Home by Duleigh
Since this is fanfiction based on a Japanese TV series whose North American rights are owned by Sony, would this be a hassle to self-publish? Would it be worth the hassle?
Thank you in advance

 

[Bramblethorn]

By posting it on Literotica, you already have self-published it. (One could perhaps argue that Laurel and Manu are publishers, but it's a distinction without a difference; in terms of the services they provide and the discretion they apply in choosing stories, Literotica is much closer to self-pub than to trad-pub.)

I suspect what you're really asking here might be "would this be a hassle to self-publish for money?" to which the answer is "yes".

Rights holders often turn a blind eye to amateur fanfic, but if you're trying to make money off their property they will do their utmost to fuck you up. Even if they don't notice, there might not be a lot of money to be made off something you've already posted for free.

 

[KeithD]

As long as you have to go through an acceptance system and some stories are rejected here, the Web site is the publisher, not you. The Web site is producing it to a publishing platform and distributing it. You aren't. This isn't self-publishing here. The author doesn't have the say in whether it is posted to the Web site or not. The base of self-publishing is that the author has that decision.

 

[PennameWombat]

I'm getting some very encouraging feedback from my Geek Pride event entries:
The Gate - A New Green Man Appears by Duleigh
The Gate - Elvish Has Left by Duleigh
The Gate - Going Home by Duleigh
Since this is fanfiction based on a Japanese TV series whose North American rights are owned by Sony, would this be a hassle to self-publish? Would it be worth the hassle?
Thank you in advance

Well, you could post it on AO3 (Archive of Our Own), which is a vast collection of fanfic.

If you mean, could you publish it on Amazon KDP or Lulu or D2D or such and charge money for it? No. Not unless you feel like contacting Sony (to start with) and negotiating a license. Or you feel like rolling the dice and channeling Warren Zevon ("send lawyers, guns and money"). You could always give a parody claim a shot.

My guess is you'll discover it's not worth the hassle to do the latter. The former, go look over the site if you're not familiar with it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

As long as you have to go through an acceptance system and some stories are rejected here, the Web site is the publisher, not you.

By that standard, none of the major self-publishing outlets are "self-publishing", because they all have some kind of acceptance system with a possibility of rejection. For instance:

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G200627450

"Once you’ve submitted your title for publication it will go into review. During review, we check your book to make sure it meets our content guidelines. The review process can’t be expedited or canceled once it’s started. You also won’t be able to make any additional edits at this time. It can take up to 72 hours for titles to be reviewed and published."

https://www.smashwords.com/about/supportfaq

"Smashwords does not accept public domain works, books that advocate hate speech/racism/homophobia, books that advocate illegal activities, or books in which the content includes word-for-word scrapes from Wikipedia or other public domain or content farm sources. ... We have a zero tolerance policy for plagiarism, copyright infringement, underage erotica (erotica featuring children under the age of 18) and PLR."

In practice, any major online self-publishing service that didn't have some kind of pre-publication screening system would be overrun by spammers and the like.

The distinction between self-pub and trad-pub here isn't an absolute, it's one of degree. Outlets like Smashwords and KDP set the bar very low and default to accepting anything that doesn't violate their site policies, whereas traditional publishing is usually much more selective. Trad-pub also typically includes services such as editing and cover design, whereas self-pub leaves authors to organise those for themselves. (On the flip side, trad-pub is much more likely to put restrictions on the author's rights to publish elsewhere.)

In all those regards, Literotica looks much more like self-pub... unless you seriously intend to argue that KDP and Smashwords aren't self-publishing.

This isn't self-publishing here. The author doesn't have the say in whether it is posted to the Web site or not. The base of self-publishing is that the author has that decision.

If you're determined to apply that standard rigidly, then the only true "self-publishing" online is when an author gets their own website and offers books from there. But that's not how most people understand the term.

 

[KeithD]

Self-publishing means the author decides it will be published and covers the cost of doing so. It has been frequently shown that most book packagers will publish a laundry list if the author decides he/she is going to be packaged by them, pays for it all, and gives the packager a profit. You have not self-published when your story is posted to Literotica. Literotica has a selection/rejection program that is in use (see all of the bitching that goes on about that on the discussion board) and the author pays nothing for the story to be put on Literotica's platform and distributed to the site. That is NOT self-publishing.

Those who choose to believe otherwise are free to live their disinformation.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It has been frequently shown that most book packagers will publish a laundry list if the author decides he/she is going to be packaged by them, pays for it all, and gives the packager a profit. You have not self-published when your story is posted to Literotica. Literotica has a selection/rejection program that is in use (see all of the bitching that goes on about that on the discussion board) and the author pays nothing for the story to be put on Literotica's platform and distributed to the site. That is NOT self-publishing.

If I publish to KDP or Smashwords, my story still goes through a selection/rejection program (as with Literotica, a lenient one where acceptance is the default), and even if I set the price to free they don't charge me for the costs associated. Same as on Literotica. Online hosting costs are cheap enough that they can afford to provide free content in order to attract readers who might pay for something.

Are you seriously claiming that KDP and Smashwords aren't "self-publishing"? Or were you not aware that these outlets don't require authors to cover the cost of publishing a free story?

 

[KeithD]

Yes, Amazon and Smashwords are not full self-publishing. They have selection criteria, ergo the decision to publish is theirs, not the author's (the self of self-publishing). The last I knew they also didn't charge the author an up-front total fee to have the work posted for sale and distributed.

You are confusing "bad" or "lesser other-party commitment" publishing with self-publishing. I can't help you in making that mistake.

Self-publishing means the author has the total decision that it will be put in print or offered on the Internet and the author pays absolutely everything up front in getting that done. If you post your story to your own blog or if you pay a printer to print a work you've covered all of the production costs on and you take full responsibility for distributing it, that's self-publishing. If anyone else is involved in the decision making of it being published or is not charging full cost up front of producing and distributing it, that's some form of something else other than self-publishing. It may not be gold-plated publishing, but it's not self-publishing.

Literotica has and exercises final say on whether something is going to be published to its platform and it doesn't charge the author a penny to get that done. Literotica is NOT self-publishing. It's an Internet publisher. Its selection criteria may not be stringent, but it's controlling and paying for the offering of the work.

You may believe what you will about this, as any other poster can. If they or you want to believe this is self-publishing here, you are free to make that mistake and suffer the stigma that no one else is involved in putting in the expense and effort of your work forward here but you. How sad for you if you insist on believing this, but I can't save you from yourself or your insistence that you know publishing better than you actually do.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yes, Amazon and Smashwords are not full self-publishing.

Qualifier noted. I agree with the implication that "self-publishing" is a matter of degree, and that KDP and Smashwords are not quite full self-publishing, for the reasons you've mentioned. (And that Literotica is no more so, for the same reasons.)

But they are enough so that pretty much the entire world is happy to refer to KDP and Smashwords as "self-publishing". You're splitting a microscopic hair here, and setting yourself up against how the term is actually used.

How sad for you if you insist on believing this, but I can't save you from yourself or your insistence that you know publishing better than you actually do.

Oh, you don't need to take my word for it. For instance, see Jane Friedman's "publishing pathways" blog post, and note that she lists both KDP and Smashwords under "indie or DIY self-publishing": https://www.janefriedman.com/key-book-publishing-path/

 

[Duleigh]

WOW! @KeithD, @Bramblethorn, Thank you guys very much! I think I was originally looking for someone to talk me back in off the ledge, but the information you guys provided was really delicious food for thought. So much has changed in the publishing world since I was involved in the mechanical end of the business (I was training to be a pressman when a big slump in the '70s hit) The link to Jane Friedman is a gold mine, I'm going to be chewing on that for a while, and I can't wait to see what these tools she was promising look like.

At this point, I think what I will do is continue with my plans for a follow up to the Gate series I have here and set them free in another universe like Fanfiction.net and to determine if it's the content that received the accolades or if it's the style of my writing that the readers appreciate. If it's the content, then I know that I have good taste in whom I steal ideas from. if it's the style... then I know I have good taste in whom I emulate (Terry Pratchett - such an incredible talent!) I mean, I love it here at Literotica, but it's a niche location, if I scatter my work at other niches I'll get a better view of what I have... that's the plan at least.

Thanks again guys, and the discussion you have recorded here is incredible! Who would have thought that one question would have stirred up the passion of two island guys... @KeithD on the opposite end of my new home state, and @Bramblethorn on an island west of New Zealand.

 

[Bramblethorn]

WOW! @KeithD, @Bramblethorn, Thank you guys very much! I think I was originally looking for someone to talk me back in off the ledge, but the information you guys provided was really delicious food for thought. So much has changed in the publishing world since I was involved in the mechanical end of the business (I was training to be a pressman when a big slump in the '70s hit) The link to Jane Friedman is a gold mine, I'm going to be chewing on that for a while, and I can't wait to see what these tools she was promising look like.

At this point, I think what I will do is continue with my plans for a follow up to the Gate series I have here and set them free in another universe like Fanfiction.net and to determine if it's the content that received the accolades or if it's the style of my writing that the readers appreciate. If it's the content, then I know that I have good taste in whom I steal ideas from. if it's the style... then I know I have good taste in whom I emulate (Terry Pratchett - such an incredible talent!) I mean, I love it here at Literotica, but it's a niche location, if I scatter my work at other niches I'll get a better view of what I have... that's the plan at least.

No problem! Be aware that fanfiction.net doesn't allow explicit content. For that, Archive Of Our Own (Ao3) is a better fit. I cross-post some of mine on Ao3, feel free to contact me via PM if you have questions about that. (Literotica's owners aren't really keen to have people using these forums to plug rival services - they're okay with reasonable discussion that's not outright advertising but I don't want to wear out my welcome.)

Thanks again guys, and the discussion you have recorded here is incredible! Who would have thought that one question would have stirred up the passion of two island guys... @KeithD on the opposite end of my new home state, and @Bramblethorn on an island west of New Zealand.

West of NZ, north of Tasmania ;-)

 

[lovecraft68]

By that standard, none of the major self-publishing outlets are "self-publishing", because they all have some kind of acceptance system with a possibility of rejection. For instance:

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G200627450

"Once you’ve submitted your title for publication it will go into review. During review, we check your book to make sure it meets our content guidelines. The review process can’t be expedited or canceled once it’s started. You also won’t be able to make any additional edits at this time. It can take up to 72 hours for titles to be reviewed and published."

https://www.smashwords.com/about/supportfaq

"Smashwords does not accept public domain works, books that advocate hate speech/racism/homophobia, books that advocate illegal activities, or books in which the content includes word-for-word scrapes from Wikipedia or other public domain or content farm sources. ... We have a zero tolerance policy for plagiarism, copyright infringement, underage erotica (erotica featuring children under the age of 18) and PLR."

In practice, any major online self-publishing service that didn't have some kind of pre-publication screening system would be overrun by spammers and the like.

The distinction between self-pub and trad-pub here isn't an absolute, it's one of degree. Outlets like Smashwords and KDP set the bar very low and default to accepting anything that doesn't violate their site policies, whereas traditional publishing is usually much more selective. Trad-pub also typically includes services such as editing and cover design, whereas self-pub leaves authors to organise those for themselves. (On the flip side, trad-pub is much more likely to put restrictions on the author's rights to publish elsewhere.)

In all those regards, Literotica looks much more like self-pub... unless you seriously intend to argue that KDP and Smashwords aren't self-publishing.


If you're determined to apply that standard rigidly, then the only true "self-publishing" online is when an author gets their own website and offers books from there. But that's not how most people understand the term.

What's interesting is the fact of how these TOS say things they never enforce, but have the wording in case they get complaints and they can blame the author for ignoring said rules, its never on them for letting it through.

The SW caught my eye because its been updated at some point since I last looked-which has been years because I don't run afoul of anything-bu where it mentions advocate illegal activities, they carry taboo, they carry non con and bestiality all illegal. Now maybe they're talking about the difference between fictional erotica-or fiction in general as murder is illegal- and things like the infamous "pedophile handbook" that got amazon in trouble years ago which somehow led to them purging 18+ taboo and dub con non comn erotica

Amazon's TOS declares they allow no pornographic material, meaning at some point they could ban the hundreds of thousands of erotic e-books that must have 'slipped through' never mind porn movies, magazine, sex toys and other XXX products they make bank on.

Yet Roosh V's rape manuals of how to have sex with unwilling woman in various countries are still published despite content and several campaigns on Change dot org to have them removed, some with six figure signature counts. I know the reasons they're left alone, but won't open that can of worms here.

Guess point here is like lit the rules are...well....dubious? If the OP took a chance and published there's a good chance there is no trouble, I mean how much will they make? How many even know what its based on? There is the satire/parody defense. Also in general if sony were to complain the book is simply pulled, legal action generally doesn't follow, its not worth their money either.

 

[Bramblethorn]

What's interesting is the fact of how these TOS say things they never enforce, but have the wording in case they get complaints and they can blame the author for ignoring said rules, its never on them for letting it through.

The SW caught my eye because its been updated at some point since I last looked-which has been years because I don't run afoul of anything-bu where it mentions advocate illegal activities, they carry taboo, they carry non con and bestiality all illegal. Now maybe they're talking about the difference between fictional erotica-or fiction in general as murder is illegal- and things like the infamous "pedophile handbook" that got amazon in trouble years ago which somehow led to them purging 18+ taboo and dub con non comn erotica

Yeah, I think the SW one was specifically about "advocating" illegal activity rather than just describing it.

I've never tested their ToS but I expect you're right that a lot of stuff doesn't get enforced any harder than they have to. OTOH, stuff that hurts their business, like if I published on Apple and mentioned in the book that they can get my stuff cheaper on Smashwords? Pretty sure that would be aggressively enforced.

 

[KeithD]

Unfortunately, the concept of "self-publishing" retains the stigma of no one but the unobjective author showing faith in/investing time, effort, or money in the work. That's why it's important that it be established that being published by Literotica is not self-publishing. Literotica fulfills all of the criteria of an independent publisher save any element of the passing of money in either direction. Literotica is a full-blown Internet publisher (albeit no Simon and Schuster) in every other regard. There is no element of criteria of self-publishing in being accepted for submission and published by Literotica.

Those who choose to see that their author efforts here are self-publishing are denigrating themselves in what is happening here needlessly. But, of course, they can see it that way if they wish.

Amazon and Smashwords were injected needlessly into this discussion of publishing with Literotica. Both are closer to self-publishing than Literotica is, because there's the element of production expense and who pays when that doesn't exist at Literotica. But neither Amazon nor Smashwords are pure self-publishing either.

 

[SimonDoom]

Unfortunately, the concept of "self-publishing" retains the stigma of no one but the unobjective author showing faith in/investing time, effort, or money in the work. That's why it's important that it be established that being published by Literotica is not self-publishing. Literotica fulfills all of the criteria of an independent publisher save any element of the passing of money in either direction. Literotica is a full-blown Internet publisher (albeit no Simon and Schuster) in every other regard. There is no element of criteria of self-publishing in being accepted for submission and published by Literotica.

Those who choose to see that their author efforts here are self-publishing are denigrating themselves in what is happening here needlessly. But, of course, they can see it that way if they wish.

Amazon and Smashwords were injected needlessly into this discussion of publishing with Literotica. Both are closer to self-publishing than Literotica is, because there's the element of production expense and who pays when that doesn't exist at Literotica. But neither Amazon nor Smashwords are pure self-publishing either.

I'll admit I give zero thought to how to characterize Literotica as a publisher. Perhaps it's because I don't publish stories elsewhere. I think it's neat to write dirty stories and see them online. It still gives me a smile, after five and a half years of doing it. I don't care how somebody describes the process.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Unfortunately, the concept of "self-publishing" retains the stigma of no one but the unobjective author showing faith in/investing time, effort, or money in the work. That's why it's important that it be established that being published by Literotica is not self-publishing. Literotica fulfills all of the criteria of an independent publisher save any element of the passing of money in either direction.

Not really. Literotica's acceptance process is extremely cursory compared to what one would expect from any traditional publisher. In terms of quality, the bar is not quite on the ground but it's extremely low.

Your comments about the stigma would have been accurate five or ten years ago, but they're somewhat outdated now. Self-publishing certainly can be the refuge of bad authors who can't get a publisher's interest (most of whom would however be able to get published here...) but it's also starting to be seen as a legitimate option for authors who, for whatever reason, want to have more control over the process - or a bigger share of the royalties - than they would get with a traditional publishing house, or who have something a little off the beaten track that doesn't quite fit into their regular publisher's line. It's not uncommon now to see authors who have had significant success with traditionally published works but are now self-publishing some of their new material, not because they have to but by preference.

For instance, Ursula Vernon is a well-known SFF author and artist who's won both the Hugo and Nebula awards, previously publishing via established publishers, but she recently won a Locus with a self-published YA book.

For an older example, Edward Tufte is a very well-known guru in the field of graphic design. He's been self-publishing for decades, because he's very particular about things like layout and page sizes, and going through an established publisher wouldn't give him that level of control. His self-published books like "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information" are generally regarded as classic texts for anybody in the field.

Literotica is a full-blown Internet publisher (albeit no Simon and Schuster) in every other regard. There is no element of criteria of self-publishing in being accepted for submission and published by Literotica.

Those who choose to see that their author efforts here are self-publishing are denigrating themselves in what is happening here needlessly. But, of course, they can see it that way if they wish.

I am touched by your concern for my well-being, but I promise I'll be okay.

Amazon and Smashwords were injected needlessly into this discussion of publishing with Literotica. Both are closer to self-publishing than Literotica is, because there's the element of production expense and who pays when that doesn't exist at Literotica. But neither Amazon nor Smashwords are pure self-publishing either.

As we'd already established, for authors who are publishing for free, there's absolutely no difference in "production expense and who pays" between Literotica, Smashwords, and KDP.

("Amazon" is a many-tentacled beast that covers many different publishing models; I assume your references to "Amazon" here are specifically to KDP, their self-publishing arm, but for clarity it's probably better to be precise.)

 

[KeithD]

"As we'd already established, for authors who are publishing for free, there's absolutely no difference in "production expense and who pays" between Literotica, Smashwords, and KDP."

Tilt. Maybe Smashwords doesn't take money from you to sell through them, but it sure as hell takes money off sales from my publisher to sell through them. Smashwords isn't a charity. Literotica takes no money from any end from authors.

Your description of the view of self-publishing pretty much reflects those of self-publishers who can't get anyone else to invest anything to publishing them.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As we'd already established, for authors who are publishing for free, there's absolutely no difference in "production expense and who pays" between Literotica, Smashwords, and KDP.

There is more effort to get your e-books properly formatted, plus the cover art is potentially a cost - I paid too much for a pre-produced cover for my Arthurian novel, for example.

That's why I stopped putting e-books out, the considerable extra editing time to get the book pages to look right, with chaptering and so on, took far too many hours that I wasn't prepared to spend. The return for me just wasn't there, dollars wise. I'm still in the red, from those I did three years ago, both time wise and real dollars spent (isbn registration in my own name, and the one cover I bought).

I did come up with some nice covers, though, once I figured out a way to do those myself.

Whereas the Lit edit is text only, not formatting, which takes no time at all.

 

[Bramblethorn]

"As we'd already established, for authors who are publishing for free, there's absolutely no difference in "production expense and who pays" between Literotica, Smashwords, and KDP."

Tilt. Maybe Smashwords doesn't take money from you to sell through them, but it sure as hell takes money off sales from my publisher to sell through them. Smashwords isn't a charity.

If I'm charging a price on SW (obviously not an option on Literotica), they take a cut.

But for the option that corresponds to Literotica - publishing for free - then SW takes zero money, either from the reader or for me. They eat whatever costs are involved. Just like on Literotica.

(Perhaps you missed the "for authors who are publishing for free" in the passage you were replying to?)

Just checking, you still reckon Jane Friedman's wrong in considering these "self-publishing"?

Literotica takes no money from any end from authors.

Your description of the view of self-publishing pretty much reflects those of self-publishers who can't get anyone else to invest anything to publishing them.

That it does! But it also reflects the view of some professional authors who have been quite successful through traditional outlets (...dare I say, more successful than either you or I...) and who've decided that sometimes self-pub is a good option.

 

[windar]

Keith is as usual WRONG and as others have said, is also a bully (but since he's ignoring me, I can say whatever I like about him). Self-publishing vs traditional publishing has nothing to do with money. Either could be paid or unpaid. It has to do with the level of input into the work that the publisher has. If they have an editor go through it with a fine-toothed comb, looking at the overall literary quality, and suggesting measurable improvements to the work, as real editors do, that's publishing. If all they do is run it through an algorithm to see if it violates some rules about the ages of the characters and a few formatting requirements, then it's self-publishing. Real publishing sometimes doesn't compensate the author at all-for example, academic journals, yet there is a rigorous review of not just the writing, but the data presented.

Lit, Amazon, Smash et al. don't do that. They don't work with you to craft the story. They take what you submitted and if you don't violate the rules (and often even if you do) they post it. They are self-publishing. Keith D self-publishes. No shame in that, but that's what he does, as do I (except when I published academic ariticles).

 

[windar]

For those who say Lit is publishing, has Laurel ever rejected a story because the characters are wooden or the plot is trite or the dialog is unrealistic? Real publishers do exactly that every day of the week and twice on Sunday. That is the all-important difference. Sorry, Keith, Lit is simply NOT the same as real publishing. Nor are Amazon, Smash or any other similar sites.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There is more effort to get your e-books properly formatted, plus the cover art is potentially a cost - I paid too much for a pre-produced cover for my Arthurian novel, for example.

Cover art, yeah, but that's just because Literotica doesn't support it. If it did, we'd be DIYing, begging favours or hiring somebody else to do it, just like on Smashwords - as opposed to a traditional publisher who would source that art themselves (and not infrequently over the author's objections - though sometimes it works out for the best).

Me, I created a fairly standard template that I modify slightly from book to book (same layout, different colours according to the story). Most of the fancy covers I saw on Smashwords become unreadable when viewed in thumbnail, so it seemed better and less effort to keep it simple.

Formatting: your mileage may vary, but if anything, I found Smashwords formatting less painful and time-consuming than on Literotica. Some of the formatting on the Lit version of Copper Coin remains broken because I gave up on trying to get it fixed, and for Loss Function I spent hours on formatting that apparently only displays correctly on some views. Against that, as best I can remember it took me two or three hours to get Stringed Instrument formatted to SW's specs - that's a 100k-word novel, including chaptering.

That's why I stopped putting e-books out, the considerable extra editing time to get the book pages to look right, with chaptering and so on, took far too many hours that I wasn't prepared to spend. The return for me just wasn't there, dollars wise. I'm still in the red, from those I did three years ago, both time wise and real dollars spent (isbn registration in my own name, and the one cover I bought).

AFAICT, unless one's willing to commit to it as a full-time job for a significant amount of time, writing fiction just isn't going to be much of a money-maker (probably not even then, TBH). IIRC, Smashwords' publishing guide warns authors that many e-books never sell a single copy, and they shouldn't spend more money on covers/etc. than they can afford to lose.

I enjoy writing but I have better options for making money, so I decided early on that for me it was best to treat it as a hobby. I make it possible for people to pay me if they want, and occasionally they do, but I'm not going to chase that. I enjoy writing, I don't enjoy promoting my stuff, and time spent on promotion would be time not spent on freelance work that pays a lot better.

I did come up with some nice covers, though, once I figured out a way to do those myself.

Whereas the Lit edit is text only, not formatting, which takes no time at all.

Spoken like a man who's never tried to get Lit to format poetry within a story :-(

 

[windar]

AFAICT, unless one's willing to commit to it as a full-time job for a significant amount of time, writing fiction just isn't going to be much of a money-maker (probably not even then, TBH). IIRC, Smashwords' publishing guide warns authors that many e-books never sell a single copy, and they shouldn't spend more money on covers/etc. than they can afford to lose.

I enjoy writing but I have better options for making money, so I decided early on that for me it was best to treat it as a hobby. I make it possible for people to pay me if they want, and occasionally they do, but I'm not going to chase that. I enjoy writing, I don't enjoy promoting my stuff, and time spent on promotion would be time not spent on freelance work that pays a lot better.

Even a great many well-regarded authors are on faculty at one college or another and earn their living from that. Their writing may be a nice supplement, but not their main source of income.

I have been fortunate to work with a publisher who does the covers in exchange for a cut of revenue from Smash and other secondary sites he puts the books on. But he doesn't go through the text with a red pencil, so I still consider it self-publishing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I enjoy writing but I have better options for making money, so I decided early on that for me it was best to treat it as a hobby. I make it possible for people to pay me if they want, and occasionally they do, but I'm not going to chase that. I enjoy writing, I don't enjoy promoting my stuff, and time spent on promotion would be time not spent on freelance work that pays a lot better.

Agree this. I make more on a single sale from my hobby business than I'd make selling a hundred e-books.

Spoken like a man who's never tried to get Lit to format poetry within a story :-(

Lol. You will go all fancy la di da! I manage my poetry with caps on the first word of each line, and that's it .

 

[Bramblethorn]

Even a great many well-regarded authors are on faculty at one college or another and earn their living from that. Their writing may be a nice supplement, but not their main source of income.

Yeah, day jobs or other people's money are the norm.

https://authorsinterest.org/2018/02/20/whats-happening-to-authors-earnings-surveying-the-surveys/

"Australian authors reported average incomes of A$62,000, of which A$12,900 comes from ‘practising as an author’. The median was much lower – just A$2,800 across all authors – suggesting there are a small number of authors making a good living and a large number making very little indeed)."

Similar results for UK, USA, and Canada.