Any Itallian Renaissance Junkies Out There?

[dr_mabeuse]

I need some help on some background information for a story

Well, you never know until you ask.

I know: too lazy to Google. Isn't it disgusting?

 

[rgraham666]

Not a junkie, but I have a little familiarity with the era.

What do you need to know?

 

[galaxygoddess]

Well I wish I could direct one of our clients here. He's a history professor at UAB, his specialty is the italian renaissance. He published a few books on it.

Without going into too much detail, UAB is trying to claim his publishing right and we're helping him.

If I could point him to you safely I would.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Probably slightly more than basic familiarity with the period, I've studied the art (but it's been a while) . . .

Ye-ess? (Curious now . . .)

 

[kendo1]

My friend Hannibal is very knowledgeable in this area. It may cost you an arm and a leg though.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

What kind of government did Florence have around 1505? Weren't they like a city state run by a city senate? And they ran all of Tuscany?

Basically, all I need is the title of someone who would be a good catch in a marriage for a family that's involved in a Romeo-Juliet type feud with another family, like "Oh! Our daughter's engaged to the Mayor of Florence's son!" but I know they didn't have a mayor or a doge.

Do you think I could just wing this one?

 

[rgraham666]

Can't answer that one, doc.

I do know that Florence was under Medici rule at that time.

I just scanned one book I've got. But its useful, Florence specific information ends in the middle of the 15th Century.

Sorry.

 

[neonlyte]

Machiavelli and the Medici's - Florence was a Republic at that time, effectively ruled by a Duke heading a 'Chancellory' form of government. Machiavelli was 'Second Chancellor' around 1500 though the real power lay with Leo II (?) a Medici Pope on Rome.

 

[Stella_Omega]

AS far as I can tell, Florence was a sort of Democracy-- you were welcome to vote for the Medicis...

But I can't find any titles, like Governor or Mayor.

I suggest the Autobiography Of Benvenuto Cellini for a rip-roaring read of the times.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I'm a bit rusty, it's been several years since I read the relevent volume in Will and Ariel Durant's magisterial "The Story of Civilization." That gives me an overview, and I'm wiki-ing for some details.

It was a sad, dispirited time in the history or Florence. France had invaded northern Italy in the 1490s, and the proud, independent cities had become the playthings of a powerful empire, with France essentially ruling Northern Italy, although indirectly. The Medici were driven out and the evil monk Savanarola - no friend of AH/Lit types - took the city in 1494, instigating the original (and literal) "bonfire of the vanities." He was tortured and hanged in 1498, and the city returned to the rule of - essentially nobody. Rather anarchical - check Durants for precise details. The Medici were out until 1512.

The 1400s are recognized as the high water mark of the city and the Renaissance, and are referred to in Italy as "the quatro-cento." I sense that this recognition existed at the time of your story - they knew the best was behind them. Eventually the French were booted out of Northern Italy - by the Spanish. The glory days were over for the independent cities, although they never (or rarely) became actual "fiefs." In the 1600s they were in steep decline economically and in population.

One notices that the center of gravity art-wise was shifting to Rome in 1505. Michelangelo and Leonardo had left the city during Savanarola, but Mich was back to finish David in 1504. Then he went to Rome in 1505 though, doing the Sistine and the tomb of Pope Julius. He eventually returned to Florence and did much magnificient work there - but one senses the old magic of the city had gone with the death of Lorenzo the Magnificient in 1492.

As I say, get the Durant's lovely book. Most libraries have it, used copies are a dime a dozen on ebay. I think it will be one-stop shopping for your research.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Savanarola fascinates me. A way good bit of S&M in that one, don't you think?

Turns out one of the leading Love Magicians of the time - a fellow named Ficino - crossed swords with Savanarola and came out on top for a time and it's not quite clear how, because his beliefs were quite heretical, such as supporting astrology (or what was called "chaldean astology" to distinguish it from regular "astrology" which is what we call "astronomy") and some fine points in theurgy such as whether angels can be enlisted to do man's bidding or not - an important theoretical issue at the time.

It's thought that Ficino might have had some goods on Savanarola - like maybe he worked some love magic for the monk himself. In any case, in his next run in he wasn't so lucky. He feld to England for a time where he fell iun with John Dee and some other English magicians, then returned to Florence where he was arrested, tried and found guilty of heresy and burned at the stake.

The place of his execution is still marked in Florence and is a symbolic gathering place for rallies celebrating free speech and anti-church gatherings and Ficino himself seems to have been something of an early D/s theorist.

One can only imagine him and the Mad Monk going at each other with scourges.

What is it with monks and BDSM?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Machiavelli and the Medici's - Florence was a Republic at that time, effectively ruled by a Duke heading a 'Chancellory' form of government. Machiavelli was 'Second Chancellor' around 1500 though the real power lay with Leo II (?) a Medici Pope on Rome.

Thanks, Neon. I'll have her engaged to the Under Assistant Duke.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

The only change I might make to Neon's is, "ineffectively ruled by . . ."

Oh BTW - They absolutely did not "rule all Tuscany" in 1505. They had been the toughest kid on the block in previous generations, but in 1505 they barely ruled themselves.

 

[shereads]

What kind of government did Florence have around 1505? Weren't they like a city state run by a city senate? And they ran all of Tuscany?

Basically, all I need is the title of someone who would be a good catch in a marriage for a family that's involved in a Romeo-Juliet type feud with another family, like "Oh! Our daughter's engaged to the Mayor of Florence's son!" but I know they didn't have a mayor or a doge.

Do you think I could just wing this one?

My two cents:

Humanists versus the followers of a thin-lipped disapproving cleric named Savanarola, who gave us the phrase, "Bonfire of the Vanities." He wants to burn immoral paintings, cosmetics and other evidence of all the excess and materialism that make Renaissance Florence a great place to raise little Medicis.

Renaissance Florence is a banking city with politically powerful artisans' guilds. Everyone who's anyone has an artist on his payroll, who in turn supports a population of willing nude models. Naturally, there must be a backlash.

Then as now, there's a dangerous divide between followers of the religious spoil-sport (Savanarola) and everyone else. Families on opposite sides of this issue will have a hell of a time agreeing on plans for the wedding breakfast.

In the late 1400s the Pope orders Savanarola to cease preaching his Bonfire-of-the-Vanities nonsense, which could threaten the Pope's children's lifestyle.

Savanarola, having God on his side, won't back down. He's excommunicated. Then executed.


----------


Or maybe the daughter is engaged to the Pope.

I'm not sure that was considered a bad thing, though.




Edited to add: marriage is an essential means of advancing a family's political power. For a daughter of, say, the Medici family to marry anyone simply because she's in love with him would cause plenty of trouble.

Maybe she falls in love with an artist under her family's sponsorship. They could ruin him by withdrawing their financial support.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

My two cents:

Humanists versus the followers of a thin-lipped disapproving cleric named Savanarola, who gave us the phrase, "Bonfire of the Vanities." He wants to burn immoral paintings, cosmetics and other evidence of all the excess and materialism that make Renaissance Florence a great place to raise little Medicis.

Renaissance Florence is a banking city with politically powerful artisans' guilds. Everyone who's anyone has an artist on his payroll, who in turn supports a population of willing nude models. Naturally, there must be a backlash.

Then as now, there's a dangerous divide between followers of the religious spoil-sport (Savanarola) and everyone else. Families on opposite sides of this issue will have a hell of a time agreeing on plans for the wedding breakfast.

In the late 1400s the Pope orders Savanarola to cease preaching his Bonfire-of-the-Vanities nonsense, which could threaten the Pope's children's lifestyle.

Savanarola, having God on his side, won't back down. He's excommunicated. Then executed.

Add to the tensions you describe the fact that powerful, monarchical France has more or less occupied N. Italy. Meanwhile S. Italy is powerful, monarchical Spain's playground. Oh, and the Turks had seriously defeated Venice in the Battle of Lepanto in 1500. It was not a happy time to be an Italian (an identity that did exist through its language, thanks to Dante, Bocaccio, and others who had given it literary "street-cred").

 

[shereads]

It was not a happy time to be an Italian (

But a fun time to be Pope!

It can't have been all bad, Rox. Poets had political representation. There were naked statues all over the place, and angels dancing on the head of a pin.




A simple star-crossed lovers scenario could pair an artist with the daughter of his powerful patron. Marriage is too important as a political alliance to allow the daughter to run off with some cherub-painter.

 

[Guest]

Is there any eloping involved?

I don't believe a son of anyone powerful could elope. Marriages were not always done in church, and a powerful man could and would get an undesirable marriage anulled...

Maharat

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

But a fun time to be Pope!

It can't have been all bad, Rox. Poets had political representation. There were naked statues all over the place, and angels dancing on the head of a pin.

A simple star-crossed lovers scenario could pair an artist with the daughter of his powerful patron. Marriage is too important as a political alliance to allow the daughter to run off with some cherub-painter.

Ah, but how many angels were dancing? Fewer than in previous generations . . .

Of course you are right - life goes on, regardless of the follies and foibles that roil princes and politicians. I'm dragging in the "dark side" to provide background, which has story possibilities: "The world was collapsing around them, but two star-crossed lovers nevertheless found a way to perform actions that 500 years later provided the basis for a porn story . . ."

 

[rgraham666]

I don't believe a son of anyone powerful could elope. Marriages were not always done in church, and a powerful man could and would get an undesirable marriage anulled...

Maharat

There was always poisoning. Or pulling an Iago.

It wasn't a fun time or place to live, that's for sure.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't believe a son of anyone powerful could elope. Marriages were not always done in church, and a powerful man could and would get an undesirable marriage anulled...

Maharat

No. Actually, this is just a minor spear-holding role. The Castiglionis find out the Testarosas have engaged their jewel of a daughter 18 year-old (for Lit purposes) Elena to the sub-assistant deputy Duke in question, which gets them all pissed off. They hire a witch from the marches to come and put a love spell on Elena to make her fall in love with young Guido Castiliani so Elena can't marry the sub-asst Duke, but meanwhile Guido's evil Uncle Antonio bribes the witch so that the spell doesn't go to Guido but to him, Antonio, a lech with a family and 2 or 3 mistresses already, and a very dangerous man.

Now Elena is in heat for Antonio and Guido wants to kill Antonio and the Testarosas have a daughter who's unmarriagiable and one month to get her back in shape for the wedding to the sub-ass't Duke, and into the picture steps Griego Rabinetti - the one-eyed charlatan (or is he?) "Love Doctor" who has exactly one week alone in a tower by the sea with Elena to use any and all means to cure her of this accursed enchantment: drugs, magic, whips, moors, ropes, shoe catalogs...

The method he uses is the Technique of The Five Cards, kind of like the Ten Ox-herding Pictures of Zen Buddhism. Anyone familiar with them?

LOL Oh, it's going to be beautiful! It's beautiful so far...

 

[Guest]

No. Actually, this is just a minor spear-holding role. The Castiglionis find out the Testarosas have engaged their jewel of a daughter 18 year-old (for Lit purposes)

she is a hag by renaissance standards


Maharat

 

[galaxygoddess]

No. Actually, this is just a minor spear-holding role. The Castiglionis find out the Testarosas have engaged their jewel of a daughter 18 year-old (for Lit purposes) Elena to the sub-assistant deputy Duke in question, which gets them all pissed off. They hire a witch from the marches to come and put a love spell on Elena to make her fall in love with young Guido Castiliani so Elena can't marry the sub-asst Duke, but meanwhile Guido's evil Uncle Antonio bribes the witch so that the spell doesn't go to Guido but to him, Antonio, a lech with a family and 2 or 3 mistresses already, and a very dangerous man.

Now Elena is in heat for Antonio and Guido wants to kill Antonio and the Testarosas have a daughter who's unmarriagiable and one month to get her back in shape for the wedding to the sub-ass't Duke, and into the picture steps Griego Rabinetti - the one-eyed charlatan (or is he?) "Love Doctor" who has exactly one week alone in a tower by the sea with Elena to use any and all means to cure her of this accursed enchantment: drugs, magic, whips, moors, ropes, shoe catalogs...

The method he uses is the Technique of The Five Cards, kind of like the Ten Ox-herding Pictures of Zen Buddhism. Anyone familiar with them?

LOL Oh, it's going to be beautiful! It's beautiful so far...

You...

just made my brain hurt, SO bad...

And yet, I want to read this

 

[galaxygoddess]

she is a hag by renaissance standards


Maharat

Yes, by certain standards of certain time periods, unmarried at 18 was concered "unmarryable old maid", but this IS lit we are talking about

 

[shereads]

Now Elena is in heat for Antonio and Guido wants to kill Antonio and the Testarosas have a daughter who's unmarriagiable and one month to get her back in shape for the wedding to the sub-ass't Duke, and into the picture steps Griego Rabinetti - the one-eyed charlatan (or is he?) "Love Doctor" who has exactly one week alone in a tower by the sea with Elena to use any and all means to cure her of this accursed enchantment: drugs, magic, whips, moors, ropes, shoe catalogs...

The method he uses is the Technique of The Five Cards, kind of like the Ten Ox-herding Pictures of Zen Buddhism. Anyone familiar with them?
.

Eee! I've never been able to resist a one-eyed Florentine charlaton. I'll bet he's famouse on the late-night club scene and a favorite with the "ladies" - a colorful assortment of street singers, card sharps, abandoned mistresses of the Pope, and an abundant array of artists' models, from willowy Aphrodites to chubby, hard-drinking cherubim.

Among the artists' models, your mysterious one-eyed necromancer would be nicknamed, "Smoove de'G."





Edited to add: Shoe catalogs? Which ones? I don't know what shoes looked like back then, but this is fiction and it couldn't hurt to put your heroine in a pair of dainty-but-flirtatious peep-toe pumps with an acorable "kitten heel."

 

[dr_mabeuse]

You...

just made my brain hurt, SO bad...

And yet, I want to read this

LOL I think that's the way renaissance stuff should be. Like a New York City subway map. I actually made the backstory too complicated and now I'm afraid I'm going to have too many characters left over. I might have to have abig quicksand accident at the end or a hippo stampede. Those usually clean things up quite nicely

No, actually, all it is, is, this girl's had the mojo put on her and this hero's got to take it off. The rest is all icing and sprinkles. Italian icing and sprinkles