Another question about Dom/Sub????????

Totally_Unsure

~Forever yearning~
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Posts
1,050
Hello all,

Here' is a question I hope someone can answer, or at least give an opinion.

First, let me say that I am married and I chat online now and then. And no, husband does not know any of this. I know that inside of me there is some type of hunger for this lifestyle. But, I also know that I will not try to satisfy my hunger anywhere in real time. I will not take that risk. That being said, I also know that in order to understand or even partake in any way of this style, there needs to be some type of real time meetings. So maybe, my question is in vain after all. But, I still wonder and I still have the thirst for something. I don't know if I am a sub. But, I do know that I am not a dominant of any type, sexually. And if I were to do anything like this in real time, it would be in the bedroom only; nothing 24/7. That I do know. As I said, I chat online now and then. Online is the time that I am able to get some fill of what I hunger for. Not in a true sense, I know. But it helps, some. Anyway, my question pertains to this:

I was told that I wasn't a 'true sub'. That if I were, I would respect and say yes sir, no sir, to any Domm I come across online. And is it true that you say yes sir, no sir to any Domm that you come across while online chatting? I was told that my tone and the words I used were disrespectful. This is where I am confused. I do know that I will not respect just anyone for the sake of doing so because someone said I had to. Whomever will need to earn my respect as far as I am concerned. I feel that any man that I come across online needs to earn my 'subness", if that makes any sense. If anyone can enlighten me on this subject, please feel free to do so. Does every professed Domm online deserve to be call Sir, Master, etc?????

Thank you,

p.s if any of this is confusing, please say so, and i'll try to clear it up.
 
Totally_Unsure said:
Hello all,

Here' is a question I hope someone can answer, or at least give an opinion.

First, let me say that I am married and I chat online now and then. And no, husband does not know any of this. I know that inside of me there is some type of hunger for this lifestyle. But, I also know that I will not try to satisfy my hunger anywhere in real time. I will not take that risk. That being said, I also know that in order to understand or even partake in any way of this style, there needs to be some type of real time meetings. So maybe, my question is in vain after all. But, I still wonder and I still have the thirst for something. I don't know if I am a sub. But, I do know that I am not a dominant of any type, sexually. And if I were to do anything like this in real time, it would be in the bedroom only; nothing 24/7. That I do know. As I said, I chat online now and then. Online is the time that I am able to get some fill of what I hunger for. Not in a true sense, I know. But it helps, some. Anyway, my question pertains to this:

I was told that I wasn't a 'true sub'. That if I were, I would respect and say yes sir, no sir, to any Domm I come across online. And is it true that you say yes sir, no sir to any Domm that you come across while online chatting? I was told that my tone and the words I used were disrespectful. This is where I am confused. I do know that I will not respect just anyone for the sake of doing so because someone said I had to. Whomever will need to earn my respect as far as I am concerned. I feel that any man that I come across online needs to earn my 'subness", if that makes any sense. If anyone can enlighten me on this subject, please feel free to do so. Does every professed Domm online deserve to be call Sir, Master, etc?????

Thank you,

p.s if any of this is confusing, please say so, and i'll try to clear it up.
looks like you met one of the many online morons who sit behind their computer pretending to be "the man". sorry. :rose:
 
some good questions.. more than half of which i cant answer (helpful gal me), I'm still deciding what I am kind of like yourself, however I dont think to me that I will be going around calling all doms master or sir. The way i percieve it is that unless otherwise stated and your own preferences you have only one master who you belong to, who you are submissive to, therefore its only him/her that deserves the title master/sir surely..
its entirely possible i know nothing and im not a true sub yet either (well i did say i was undecided) but by the same token who cares what other people think about your subness.. so long as your master (or in your case future master) remains pleasured thats what counts..

Vega xxx
(possibly the most useless poster ever)
 
I can't help but wonder why you're not considering the venture with your husband as your master, but I agree with the others here. You just met some power-type, not a Dom you'd want to spend time with.

I have been in many chatrooms where subs were just generally polite, calling Sir and Ma'am when talking to Dom/mes. They were usually regular chatters who have meshed into the chatroom's "norms" but a "norm" does not make a rule. I do chat in one place where sub-to-Domme respect is a rule, but not the title. Heck respect should just be a rule when talking to people. Anyone who would talk down to you doesn't deserve respect.

No one can tell you who and what you are. When you figure it out, you'll know.
 
No, you don't have to address every Dom/me you meet as Sir, Master, Mistress, whatever. Being polite, and respectful is expected, but you should be receiving that in return too.

I don't have much experience with Doms, but in My dealings with Dommes, I've come to the conclusion that a Domme who expects blind obedience and respect from someone They've just met, tends to be pretty unreasonable in most other areas of Her dominance.

Being submissive doesn't mean you're a doormat without feelings, or that you can be taken advantage of.

Good luck in your quest!
 
To me, the title of Master is one of honor, and exclusiveness. The title, in my opinion, denotes ownership, and has never been uttered from my lips, nor poured out through my fingertips lightly. That type of respect is earned, no one is entitled to it

In early 2001, i was a total newbie when it came to computers, the internet, and the label/term/name "BDSM". i had no idea what a Dom, sub, Domme, or slave (ect ect, pick your label) was at the time.
i was a regular chatter in a general help chatroom for about 6 months (a chat where people seek and receive help with computer issues) when a woman i had been chatting with regualerly during those months sent me a private message.
In the message she stated that she had observed my chatting and receiving regular help from a man in the room and based on how i addressed him in open chat, was wondering if i understood what his ID meant. His ID was "MasterGeek" (name changed here, to protect his identity ;) ) and that was exactly how i addressed him in chat. i didn't know that the name was a title of sorts related to his claim to being a 'skilled/experienced' Dominant. i had assumed that because he was a well known porgrammer, that he claimed to be a "master" in that sense... and coupled with the 'Geek' part of his name, this is how his ID was translated in my mind.
Once she had explained, i was suddenly not comfortable with calling him Master-"anything". i had immediately decided, for myself, that if he was not *my* Master, and i was not concidered his property, i felt it was inappropriate for me to address him in that way. i spent many hours in chat over the next 5 years and from that day on i have always addressed him as simply 'Geek'.
Likewise, from that moment on, until June of 2004, on the day that i became the owned porperty of my Master/Husband (INSIDEYOURMIND being His ID here at Lit), i never referred to, nor addressed anyone else by the title of Master, Lord, Sir, or Mistress, Ma'am, Lady (pick your label please ;) ) online or elsewhere. In chats, when i share conversations with others who have the title of Master (pick your label here please) contained in their ID i delete that part of the name when i address them. IE: MasterSensual, i would referre to as 'Sensual', MasterPimp, is addressed as 'Pimp'.
Some have called me on this and questioned whether i have set out intentionally to disrespect them in not addressing them as 'Master-Whatever'. i do well by explaining to them: i do not wear your collar, have never offered submission, nor service to you just as i am not your property, you are quite respectfully, not *my* Master. i am submissive, however i am not *your* submissive. --
For me, in my opinion, and based on values which i hold myself to, the title of Master (pick your own label please) and the respect which i reserve appropriately in regard to the title, is one of intimate, and very personal reservation.

Just as i have never, and will never call another by the title of 'Husband', i'll never call anyone 'Master' other than my owner, 'INSIDEYOURMIND'.
 
Sounds like you're meeting typical online morons.

Just because someone sits on the other side of a computer screen and says "hey I'm a dom" doesn't mean you have to pay him homage. He may be "a" dom but he's not "my" dom.

Right now there's only one person I'm calling "sir" and unless he tells me otherwise, that't not changing.

I would generally advise you to just be polite to *all* people you meet online (at least the ones who seem intelligent) and when the right dom comes along, you will know.

I worry that you're engaging in this behind your husband's back. Have you discussed it with him?
 
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1) Hiding things from your spouse is never a good idea. Especially if it's something that, in your soul, you hunger for.

2) BDSM CAN happen just online, as any relationship can. You need to find comfort, and if you're comfortable just online, then leave it just online. I have a BDSM relationship online with Daddy, and he and I plan to never meet.. we find what we need in each other online, and that works for us. I have a partner in RL, and he knows about Daddy, and knows Daddy fulfills desires that he is unwilling or unable to fulfill.. and that works for us. *shrug* It is how it is. But like I said, it is just online.

3) BDSM is a buffet. You take what you want, and leave the rest. If you want online BDSM, then take that. Fuck what anyone else will tell you about your practices (unless of course, they are unsafe, etc, then heed good advice), and do what you need for your fulfillment.

4) HNG's. Horny Net Geeks. They're the ones who PM people, and say things like "I see you're sub. I expect you to call Me Sir, and to do as I say", without any form of introduction. Fuck them, too. They're seeking validation, and it is NOT your responsibility to give it to them.

5) Calling every person who is Dominant "Sir" or "Mistress" is a practice that has always annoyed me. I only call my Sir and my Daddy 'Sir'. That's it. I give due respect to Dominants who have earned my friendship, but they are not MY Dom/me, and therefore, there is no reason for me to label them in such a way. Respect who you choose to respect, endear who you choose to endear with such names. That is it.

6) Find what makes you happy. I've had people tell me I'm not a real sub, or a real Domme, because I switch. *shrug* When someone inspires my submissive side, I'm a real sub. When someone inspires my Domme side, I'm a real Domme. Just because I have found a connection online doesn't make it any less of a connection. Daddy and I both get what we want and crave from it, and we are happy. *shrug* Who's to criticize someone who's found happiness?
 
Hi Totally Unsure,

Okay first, as others have said you don't have to call anyone Sir or Master or Mistress just because they say so. You are quite right that such a relationship should be based on trust and respect, which should go both ways. Anyone who doesn't understand that is not for you or for most of us.

I am also married. I will not risk my marriage either. When I first started my quest I did things online to sort of test them out. My husband does know what I am doing and he is cool with it. I thought many of the same things you did about what my absolute limits and inclinations were. Some of those have changed. People do learn and grown, it's only natural so don't be shocked if you experience some changes too.

No you do not have to be in a 24/7 lifestyle to be a "true" sub. There are many variations. As long as you feel within yourself that you need to be submissive and find an outlet for that, you can call yourself a sub if you want to label what you are doing.

There are a few ways to experiment with all of this online. Just be careful of the people who like the one you talk about bring you down and judge you, making demands that are not logical.

I do think you should consider slowly bringing this into your relationship.

Fury
:rose:
 
I cannot imagine a world where all women were instantly deferential to any man that came along.

I think that is called the Taliban. And look at what happened to those idiots.

Demanding that someone online refer to you with an honorific precursor just because they slap a title on themselves is pretty silly. If someone chooses to do so that is fine but you earn respect, you do not demand it.
 
I actually dislike being called "Ma'am" in rl or online because where I grew up, it was a title given to an older woman. At 23, don't think I qualify for that quite yet.

And Mistress? There's only one person I acknowledge such a name from, since I can't stop idiots from saying what they will, only how I react to it.

As Lilith said- BDSM is a realm of many possiblities, its between you and whoever you partake the journey with to define what's "right" and "wrong" for you.

Don't let the masses convince you you're wrong- the masses once believed the world was flat and everything in space revolved around the Earth. See how wrong they were?

And welcome to Lit!
 
My Dom doesn't even allow me to call him Master because he isn't yet. He wants to earn that title first. I would not call any man Master or Sir. I am submissive to one man only. I agree with being respectful, but only if I am being respected.

Here is a good site about online BDSM that you might find helpful. http://www.submissiveloving.com/online.html
 
"Real" Sub?

Your concern over the "reality" of your submission is interesting. The prevailing attitude of the bdsm comunity is that if I do it, it's real, and if I don't do it, it's not real.

We all have reasons for the things we do- needs or desires that we are trying to satisfy. If these needs or desires are satisfied, it's real, if they aren't it's not. I participated in various bdsm activities for about 25 years before I knew there were computer fora where people discussed bdsm- when I did discover the internet, I eagerly joined every on line group that I could find. About the same time, I moved to Atlanta, which was the first place I lived where there were bdsm clubs and play groups. I had some very good, satisfying and interesting experiences on line, and in "real life". I also ran across literally hundreds of game players and wannabes, both on line and in "real life".

My wife and I actually met on line, and a couple of years later, after we were married, attended some pep meetings in Atlanta. We still laugh, five years later, about how artificial and stereotyped these get togethers were, compared to some of our on-line experiences; but I had my share of "unreal" on line times too.

If whatever you are doing is satisfying to you, and isn't hurting anyone else, do it and don't worry about whether or not it meets someone else's quaint standard of reality.
 
Just because someone sits on the other side of a computer screen and says "hey I'm a dom" doesn't mean you have to pay him homage. He may be "a" dom but he's not "my" dom.

*clapclapclapclapclapclapcalp*
 
His_pita said:
My Dom doesn't even allow me to call him Master because he isn't yet. He wants to earn that title first. I would not call any man Master or Sir. I am submissive to one man only. I agree with being respectful, but only if I am being respected./QUOTE]

I COMPLETELY agree. I frequent a BDSM irc room, and I tell the new people "please, don't call me sir just because the first letter in my name is a cap"... it seems to cheapen it for me.

If you think I deserve it? Yeah, sure, call me Sir. But I ain't your damn Master :p
 
Totally_Unsure said:
Hello all,

First, let me say that I am married and I chat online now and then. And no, husband does not know any of this. I know that inside of me there is some type of hunger for this lifestyle. But, I also know that I will not try to satisfy my hunger anywhere in real time.

Been there, done that, totally understand the loyalty to your spouse. That is, IMNSHO a rare and wonderful thing.

With that said, let me recommend "When Someone You Love Is Kinky" by Dossie Easton & Catherine A. Liszt. Available from http://www.greenerypress.com Excellent book on how to explain what it is that we do to vanillas in your life. If you can bring your husband into the family, that's a wonderful thing!


Totally_Unsure said:
I will not take that risk. That being said, I also know that in order to understand or even partake in any way of this style, there needs to be some type of real time meetings.

Please allow me to recommend munches and educational meetings. You DO NOT need to play with anyone to further your education about life style issues. But making friends, discovering you are NOT alone, can help you keep your sanity and composure.

Totally_Unsure said:
I was told that I wasn't a 'true sub'. That if I were, I would respect and say yes sir, no sir, to any Domm I come across online. And is it true that you say yes sir, no sir to any Domm that you come across while online chatting?

None of it was confusing to those of us who have been online any time at all. We've been there, done that, got the t-shirts...
*grin*

There is an intersting journey ahead of you, with much self exploration and discovery. You are our sister in kink, part of our family, and we'll help out, and answer questions and give you pointers. Just remember that none of OUR journeys will be the same as yours, and that you will have to discover your own truths. But you have lots of friends and family here who will listen without judgement or condemnation, who will affirm you and support you.

Welcome to our kinky family!
 
Ture or False

Ah, the "true" sub crap. You will meet along your journey people that will try to tell you everything you must do. There are those who think all dominant people should be called "sir" "ma'am" or whatever (check out a Gorean site sometime, eek). There are those who will drive Y/you nuts telling E/everyone W/who will listen how T/they must do that crazy cap/lowercase bullshit as a method of differentiating between doms and subs. Heaven help you if you feel that just typing in a correct grammatical form is ok.

Be who you are in your heart. Extend common courtesy to those who deserve it and don't feel bad about anyway you choose to treat those who don't.

As you are surfing the net exploring chat rooms, surf and find sites for reference. Castlerealm is a good one, the Fetish Alliance, Subspace Resources for submissives. Visit message boards like this one, reading and posting. All great ways to help discover and learn about what you want/need. Be prepared for the fact that a year from now you may find yourself wanting/needing things that initially you weren't interested in.

You don't mention why you haven't spoken to your husband about it, but you really should try to do so. You might be pleasantly surprised to find he has the complimentary interests you need. I can certainly understand your reluctance. Although I have been divorced for years, I know that when I was still dating "vanilla" guys, it was difficult sometimes to even try to approach the issue of anal sex let alone spankings (couple of my personal favorites). The idea that a guy would think I was a slut because I liked anal sex? Finally came to the conclusion that it didn't matter if he thought that, and if he didn't care to participate, I didn't want him. Obviously, you are married and that is not such an easy decision for you. But if you give your husband a chance, hopefully he will try to meet you halfway. Continuing to hide it from him has a real strong possibility of turning into a disaster down the road.

Good luck!
 
Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening to All,

First of all, I want to give a BIG thanks to each of you that took the time to read and to respond to my post. I do apologize for not responding back before now. But at times, reality does take precedence over online activities.

I knew what the answer was (in my heart anyway) before I posted the question here on Lit. But being that I tend to doubt myself at times, I thought it would be a good idea to see what the nice people here on Lit thought. I read each of your posts thoroughly and carefully. And I tend to agree with some part or all of what everyone said. I feel that each of you gave some very good insights into this.

I know there are a lot of things to look out for and to be weary of here online and in real time. I do agee that there are TONS of 'wanna be' Doms here online. And to most of them, it's only about 'the power over someone else'. The bottom line is that only I can look after myself in all matters. I can't nor will I look for someone else to do it for me.

A couple of you mentioned my marriage and why I won't bring my husband into this. Let's just say, in order to understand my reasons, and to not bore you with the details, you would need to know the history of our relationship. This is something that I am totally not comfortable sharing with him. Sooooo, I will continue to live with it inside of me. Maybe here and there live it out online, somehow, now and then. But, being careful and leary of who I come in contact with.

Again, I thank all of you for your time and for your response. And thank you for the warm welcome. You were very kind in your response.

Take care, each of you,
Totally Unsure
 
Totally_Unsure said:
I was told that I wasn't a 'true sub'. That if I were, I would respect and say yes sir, no sir, to any Domm I come across online. And is it true that you say yes sir, no sir to any Domm that you come across while online chatting? I was told that my tone and the words I used were disrespectful. This is where I am confused. I do know that I will not respect just anyone for the sake of doing so because someone said I had to. Whomever will need to earn my respect as far as I am concerned. I feel that any man that I come across online needs to earn my 'subness", if that makes any sense. If anyone can enlighten me on this subject, please feel free to do so. Does every professed Domm online deserve to be call Sir, Master, etc?????

Respect is earned... any dom/me who demands it from you has got some insecurity issues. I have never once used a 'respect title' for anyone other than MY Dom. In fact, for the longest time, he had me call him by his first name... until he was satisfied with the level of mutual respect that we had for each other.

So does every professed Dom/me deserve to be called Sir, Master, PYL? HELL NO. Anyone who says otherwise, just really doesn't know what they're talking about.
 
Miss Trickery said:
Respect is earned... any dom/me who demands it from you has got some insecurity issues. I have never once used a 'respect title' for anyone other than MY Dom. In fact, for the longest time, he had me call him by his first name... until he was satisfied with the level of mutual respect that we had for each other.

So does every professed Dom/me deserve to be called Sir, Master, PYL? HELL NO. Anyone who says otherwise, just really doesn't know what they're talking about.


As well, Ms Totally Unsure - I'm in no position to properly suggest this, but perhaps take your marriage into deep consideration? I'm sure that you have thought about this to some extent... but sooner or later the online experience may lead elsewhere - eventually destroying a marriage. I've heard many stories which have started with a little online curiosity - which later developed into an online relationship - then some r/t meetings - and before they knew it, their entire world was turned upside down.

I don't mean to scare you or anything, but If you can make the seperation - then more power to you. Being unfaithful is not a good thing, IMO, from vanilla to D/s. Some don't care, some do, it happens, it doesn't - i'd just hate to be the husband without a clue.

my 2 pennies worth - enjoy!
 
jasonlf said:
I COMPLETELY agree. I frequent a BDSM irc room, and I tell the new people "please, don't call me sir just because the first letter in my name is a cap"... it seems to cheapen it for me.

I agree Jason, that is one of things about that channel that really bothers me...I've learned to ignore it because I do enjoy chatting there, but sometimes I'm overwhelmed with wondering if half the people in there have any concept of BDSM as a reality because of how easily they throw respect and titles around. It DOES cheapen it.

The cap rule bugs me too...in the channel I moderate, we don't follow the caps rule. A majority of the regulars cap or uncap according to their role anyhow, but a handful do not and are constantly being mistaken for the opposite role only to have people have a fit and "order" them to uncap or cap. We always laugh about it because its so immature. :/ My nick is always lowercase because I think it looks cute that way and always have, long before I was submissive.
 
Haku_Z said:
As well, Ms Totally Unsure - I'm in no position to properly suggest this, but perhaps take your marriage into deep consideration? I'm sure that you have thought about this to some extent... but sooner or later the online experience may lead elsewhere - eventually destroying a marriage. I've heard many stories which have started with a little online curiosity - which later developed into an online relationship - then some r/t meetings - and before they knew it, their entire world was turned upside down.

I don't mean to scare you or anything, but If you can make the seperation - then more power to you. Being unfaithful is not a good thing, IMO, from vanilla to D/s. Some don't care, some do, it happens, it doesn't - i'd just hate to be the husband without a clue.

my 2 pennies worth - enjoy!

BINGO! Absolutely!

No one worth their salt would ever get involved with another that is married and has not been forthright with their spouse. Trust is paramount in all relationships including the lifestyle (for a multitude of reasons) and what was mentioned brings hypocrisy. If you cannot be trusted by the one you commit to why should you be trusted by the one you submit to? To pursue some form of contact, unbeknownst to your spouse, is not trustworthy in any way, shape or form. If your husband is uninterested in the lifestyle and unaccepting of your participation, then those are the cards your are dealt with and you must play. From this you must decide which is the most important for you, remaining married or the freedom to be what you are.

I would suggest reading all you can about the lifestyle and initiate dialogue with your husband, no matter how hard it may be for either of you.
 
I don't see the harm in "chatting" online with people in the lifestyle. However, if you are forming a relationship with someone, eventually that person will ask you if you are married and vice-versa. Honesty is the best policy here. Of course there are those that will lie about the issue. Most men I have encountered will drop you like a hot potato when they find out that you are married. If you are new to the online thing, trust no-one in the beginning and still be wary.

I agree with Joe Schmoe. Try and discuss your needs with your spouse, then you could say that you at least made the effort. Alot of people haven't a clue what the BDSM lifestyle is about and he may very well enjoy the things you want to try. Start small by asking for a spanking or mild bondage.

It sounds like something is missing from your relationship kiddo...communication and reciprocity. I get the feeling you are unable to "really" talk to your partner about your sexual needs and perhaps many other things. Remember, anything you do on-line is taking you away from your "primary" relationship, which is bound to suffer in the long run. It isn't worth it.
(Just my two cents)
 
Like the others, I agree that some things are earned, among them: trust, respect, and titles denoting trust and respect -- like Sir/Ma'am, or Master/Mistress. I am irritated when someone I don't know addresses me as Sir, though I know they mean no "disrespect," but I truly haven't earned it from them, and I damn well don't mean to owe them anything beyond a respectful conversation.

Marriage is a different deal for me; self-respect requires my self-honesty -- and once BDSM became an important value in my life, my vanilla marriage became a problem and a dishonest (and frustrating) situation. So the papers are being filed within the week.
 
I just want to share my story with you Totally,

Have been interested in BDSM for heck- ages now. Always had this quiet voice inside my head telling me things should be a little off to the side of normal, you know?

Could never put my finger on it but I wasn't quite satisfied with the whole 'nilla lifestyle thing- the happy homemaker and the missionary position (not really, just an expression ;)) was getting me by, but just wasn't doing it for me. The problem was I didn't know what else to look for.

About 6 years ago (almost 7 now I guess) I came across some stories on the net and went OMG!!!! A little later I found this place and spent so much time reading the stuff here I thought I was going to go blind!

The rest is history...

Now I have been with my husband for 16 years.
He has His own story to tell, but we'll just say He was extremely repressed sexually when I first got into His pants.. After 10 years together I still would never consider even suggesting to Him that I was feeling things I couldn't name and that I was unhappy with our sex life..

I was miserable. I thought I was going to shrivel up and blow away..


Finding Lit was what saved me actually....

All the advice about honesty and COMMUNICATION and being true to who you are inside finally got through to me... I honestly don't remember when it was exactly but I just started talking about small things I read or things I saw and asking Him what did He think... It was little things, nothing that I thought would freak Him out or make Him suspicious of my true intentions.

I am so glad I did.

Turns out that my lifemate was just a little kinky as well. Maybe that is what attracted me to Him in the first place- like a kindred soul type thing? Now we are exploring how far we need to take things (kids and other life things make it a long and different process than I would like :()

I don't know that we would be together if things hadn't gotten out in the open. It was so hard to hide what I was feeling inside and act normal- it tends to come out in other ways anyway so why waste the energy? We still have a long ways to go but things for me are 10000% better so I am up for the journey, and He doesn't seem to be going anywhere...

You really should be honest with your husband.
It would be much better to find out about you from you and possibly with you, than to come across something you have forgotten about online and be blindsided with something he doesn't understand and cannot begin to believe.

Take care,
Syb. :rose:
 
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