Another giant leap backward for humanity

[cheerful_deviant]

I ripped this from the BBC newswire...

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Saudi women barred from voting

The Saudi interior minister has said women will not be allowed to vote in the country's municipal elections starting in February 2005.

In response to a question about women's getting the vote, Prince Nayef bin Sultan said simply: "I don't think that women's participation is possible."

An election law published in August did not explicitly ban women from voting.

This led many campaigners for women's rights to hope for a substantial breakthrough for Saudi women.

The Associated Press quotes an unnamed Saudi election official as saying that the main reasons for barring women from the election were administrative.

The official told AP that there were not enough women electoral staff to run women-only voter registration centres, while only a fraction of women in Saudi Arabia had photo identity cards.

Absolute monarchy

The only previous Saudi elections were some municipal polls held in a number of cities in the 1960s.

Registration for next year's election starts in November. Voting starts in the capital, Riyadh, on 10 February and ends in the north of the country towards the end of April.

Citizens over the age of 21 will be able to choose half the members of municipal councils.

Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy, governed according to a highly conservative interpretation of Islamic Sharia law.

The country is under severe pressure, internally and externally, to reform its political system.

Women in the kingdom live with highly circumscribed rights. They are, for example, not permitted to travel unaccompanied by male relatives or allowed to drive.

 

[rgraham666]

Their lives are only tightly circumscribed if they're commoners.

If you're a member of the large royal family, anything goes.

I've heard of a doctor in Spain who makes a very nice living restoring the hymens of Saudi Arabian princesses. Charges $20,000 US for the procedure and does at least three a month.

 

[R. Richard]

In Saudi Arabia, the lives of commoner women are very tightly controlled. The lives of the very upper class/royal women are publically controlled. However, there are parties held in private homes where men and women arrive separately. The women surry into the house, wearing the all enveloping bourqas (or whatever they call them in Saudi Arabia). The women then remove the bourqas to reveal fancy French gowns and both sexes mingle and drink alcohol (forbidden Muslims). Afterward, the men and bourqa clad women depart separately.

It is a wonderful system, if you are an upper class male, particularly if you are a direct descendent of Ibn Saud.

JMHO.

 

[cantdog]

And yet, despite the fact that the whole society is puritan they have a lot of trouble from restive fundamentalist groups. Even the Wahhabis are not fundamentalist enough to suit those fellows. Bin Laden's criticisms of them are one example. He (Bin Laden) doesn't accuse them of hypocrisy, even, but for their policies toward the United States and other public policy matters.

 

[Prettyass]

Before we condem the Saudis we should remember that in the United States, women have only had the vote for about 80 years.

 

[cantdog]

I was defending them. Puritans are not the same as the millenial fantasists who blow themselves to bits for Paradise. It is important to make the distinction, not just to avoid confusion about the Saudi society but to correctly understand our own Christian puritanical and fundamentalist branches.

 

[cantdog]

I am extremely disappointed not to have an avatar to go with that enchanting handle of yours, by the way. Pretty asses are a strong favorite of mine.

Welcome to the Hangout.

cantdog

 

[minsue]

I am extremely disappointed not to have an avatar to go with that enchanting handle of yours, by the way. Pretty asses are a strong favorite of mine.

Welcome to the Hangout.

cantdog

Charmer

 

[Colleen Thomas]

From the eyes of a fundamentalist Muslim and even some of the far right fundy Christian sects, we took a giant step backwards when we ignored scripture and gave women the right to vote.

It's very difficult to make value judgements on a culture that is so at odds with our own viewpoint.

At some point, the Middle east will have to step into the 21st century with the rest of us. How much of their culture and religion they can preserve while making that leap is a question no one, even they themselves can answer.

While I deplore the way they treat women, their society as a whole does not. There is no internal impetus to change that I know of, the vast majority of pressure to do so is from the outside. Eventually they will have to adapt to the modern world or fall ever farther behind. As long as the rest of us are dependant on oil, they have the money and influence neccessary to hold time at bay.

-Colly

 

[cheerful_deviant]

I don't buy into the 'cultural differences' as any kind of excuse for the way women are treated in the middle east (and many other parts of the world). Women in those reigons are treated as property and have essentially no rights. It's long past the time when men stop using culture and religion as a means to control women. The "It's always been that way." excuse is complete shit. When you see something is wrong, you change it, you don't just keep doing it wrong.

The problem is the entire culture is brought up on the idea that women are 2nd class at best. It's so engraned that it is hardle even chalanged. Women who do chalenge it are brutally beaten, publicly shunned or even killed and nothing is done.

Looking into the eyes of my beautiful little daughters, I can't grasp how any father in that reigon could look at his own daughters and knowingly give them into some other mans care thru marriage, basicly sell his daughters to someone else. How could he not want the best for her, an education, carreer, travel, whatever she wants. Instead she gets to wear a burka and never go outside without her husband with her, can't vote, can't drive, no education unless her husband approves. She has to stay at home, raise the childern, tend the house, etc. That is fine if it is her choice, but not if it's her only choice. That doesn't sound like a life to me. It sounds like slavery.

Just my 2 cents.

CD

 

[cantdog]

In that arena, there is little to distinguish the puritan Saudis from the fundamentalist Islamists. True.

My daughter is never going to such a place. So she tells me. They will never know what they're missing thereby; she's quite a woman. But they'll never know what they're missing with regard to their own women. I find your criticism of the puritanical Saudi culture cogent if emotionally charged a little too much. As a father of a girl, I understand that, I think.

Most muslims, honestly, are neither fundamentalist nor puritanical, and do not deserve to be lumped with them. Many Saudi women feel the society is misguided, as well, in those matters. There are shelves of books they've written and political combinations they are engaging in to right the matter.

So it's not really true that nothing is done. The corner of the carpet is turned up. It's just hard to roll up with all the weight that's still on it.

God I love a good metaphor.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

In that arena, there is little to distinguish the puritan Saudis from the fundamentalist Islamists. True.

My daughter is never going to such a place. So she tells me. They will never know what they're missing thereby; she's quite a woman. But they'll never know what they're missing with regard to their own women. I find your criticism of the puritanical Saudi culture cogent if emotionally charged a little too much. As a father of a girl, I understand that, I think.

Most muslims, honestly, are neither fundamentalist nor puritanical, and do not deserve to be lumped with them. Many Saudi women feel the society is misguided, as well, in those matters. There are shelves of books they've written and political combinations they are engaging in to right the matter.

So it's not really true that nothing is done. The corner of the carpet is turned up. It's just hard to roll up with all the weight that's still on it.

God I love a good metaphor.

Talking about a culture as a whole can be and generalizing can be dangerous, I agree. And maybe I do go to far.

But as my first post shows, although shelves of books have been written, the government just knocked women back into their place, so to speak. Obviously the government hasn't been reading the books.

Or maybe they have and are trying to keep the books influence under control.

 

[Prettyass]

I am extremely disappointed not to have an avatar to go with that enchanting handle of yours, by the way. Pretty asses are a strong favorite of mine.

Welcome to the Hangout.

cantdog

What is an avatar? In fairness, I should tell you, I am not a woman. I am a gay man in my fifties

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Actually, Cantdog, this was what I had in mind.

http://members.aol.com/ejrsemigod/tpa/pin7.jpg

 

[amicus]

I had the unspoken question of, 'what if pretty ass is a guy' otherwise I would not have delved into this thread...however...since I am here....


Uhoh....

And purely as a devil's advocate: Considering that for most of human history...women have had no rights...does the record of the last 80 years, (as mentioned) serve as a platform for bringing feminine equality to other parts of the world?

nuff said...

amicus...

 

[snooper]

What is an avatar? In fairness, I should tell you, I am not a woman. I am a gay man in my fifties

When I used "Charmbrights" as a handle on here, they kept thinking I was a woman as well!

An avatar is the small picture to the left of a posting, under the name, like what I have not got. You can have one after 100 posts.

 

[cantdog]

Ah, well, foiled again.

Buried 'way down in the FAQ is, at long last, an avatar question. The controls to put one in are in the forum's "Control Panel" under the subsection "Edit Options". But they will not operate until you pass the 100-posts mark.

The images are generally *.gif or *.jpg format, and they are limited to 150 pixels square or less. There's a size limit in MB of file size, too. It's a large one, but it allows simple animated *.gifs.

Welcome anyway. We're undersupplied with gay men in their fifties.

cantdog

 

[cantdog]

Actually, Cantdog, this was what I had in mind.

http://members.aol.com/ejrsemigod/tpa/pin7.jpg

I loved that movie. I was less than seven, but I did love it.

amicus:And purely as a devil's advocate: Considering that for most of human history...women have had no rights...does the record of the last 80 years, (as mentioned) serve as a platform for bringing feminine equality to other parts of the world?

nuff said...

Yeah. 'Way 'nuff. Considering that if you're a woman, you have had to live without freedom; that if you live in an enslaved group, you are often a slave of a slave; can you not stretch your imagination enough to see that even such "equality" as we have managed to achieve must be unutterably precious?
And that regardless of the record as it affects men?

You couldn't handle the world of 100 years ago, anyhow.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

We're further ahead than many middle-east countries, but we're still far away from having a society where men and women are treated equal.

 

[cantdog]

So amicus's supposed 80-year baseline is hooey. We haven't had so much as one year, yet. Women in the military are gang-raped, with impunity, by their unit-mates. Salaries and social status, promotions, the ministry and priesthoods-- the list is endless. In hardly any arena is there equality.

80 years, my ass.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

So amicus's supposed 80-year baseline is hooey. We haven't had so much as one year, yet. Women in the military are gang-raped, with impunity, by their unit-mates. Salaries and social status, promotions, the ministry and priesthoods-- the list is endless. In hardly any arena is there equality.

80 years, my ass.

Well said.

 

[Weird Harold]

Women in the military are gang-raped, with impunity, by their unit-mates.

Got some documentation of this assertion?

As much as fifteen years ago, when I retired, it was a courtmartil offense to tell dirty jokes in thepresence of female military member if she chose to object.

I know of no instance where a female military member was "gang-raped with impunity" unless she CHOSE not to report it.

As for the decision not to allow women to vote in Saudi Arabia, it may not be a step forward, but it isn't a step "backwards" either -- it's simply things staying the same.

Judging from some of the news reportage of the Afghan Election, giving women the Vote in mny societies is in fact giving their fathers and husbands an additional vote.

There are any number of instances of women in Afghanistan saying things like, "My husband/father won't allow me to register," "I'm voting for Karzai because that's what my husband/father told me to do," etc.

One Afghan grandmother was quoted as saying, "I won't allow my daughters or granddaughters to vote because it was against the the Taliban stood for." She truly believed that the Taliban's restrictions on women were proper and justified.

In cultures where the subservience of women is deeply ingrained, giving them the vote is pointless because you're actually giving whoever they are culturally conditioned to obey a scond vote rather than giving it to her.

First, women have to be given a cultural sense of individuality before further "freedoms" are possible.

Giving every woman in the world an "equal say" and a vote is an admirable goal, which I fully support, but it is simply not a practical immediate goal.

Until and unless the cultural conditioning of a lifetime can be countered and women begin wanting equal rights and th vote, it's simply a waste of time to force it on them.

The women of Saudi Arabia are close to being ready for the vote, but those who are actively seeking the vote and other equal rights are still a minority there. It's still a relatively new and radical idea for MEN to have a vote there. If it's radical for MEN to vote in that culture, how much more radical is the concept that women should vote too?

I'm not sure that the men are culturally ready for democracy and there is a great deal more groudwork to be done before either the culture or the women of that culture are ready for "equal rights."

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... Judging from some of the news reportage of the Afghan Election, giving women the Vote in mny societies is in fact giving their fathers and husbands an additional vote.... I'm not sure that the men are culturally ready for democracy ...

It seems that I have read of leaders from our own country who claimed that American blacks weren’t ready for the vote, just fifty or sixty years ago. Funny, once they got to vote, how rapidly they learned to use it to further their interests.

No doubt there will be Arab women who are directed to vote the way their husbands/fathers command. Once those women see that their vote is made in secret, unobserved, I feel confident that somewhere, revolutionary women will start urging their friends to agree to vote as their husband/father directs. Then, once in the voting booth, vote as they choose.

I hope you are not under the delusion that there are no husbands and fathers in our own country who try to control how their wife, their daughters, and even their sons vote. If so, you are not nearly so bright as I have always believed you to be.

 

[Weird Harold]

It seems that I have read of leaders from our own country who claimed that American blacks weren’t ready for the vote, just fifty or sixty years ago. Funny, once they got to vote, how rapidly they learned to use it to further their interests.

Very true, if a bit too far back on the dates -- Things like that were being said by prominent American Politicians well into the 1970's; a mere 30 years ago.

However, I would also point out that Blacks have technically had the vote in the US -- and used it to their advantage -- since 1865 or so. There is a difference between racist fears phrased as doubts about the ability to vote wisely (based on demonstrated examples that the vote will be wisely and effectively used against your racist attitudes) and recognising that the freed slaves of 1865 WERE mostly unprepared to vote wisely -- enthusiastic, but unprepared.

It took nearly a generation before the Black Vote "had to be suppressed" because it was becoming a threat to White Rule.

It took nearly a hundred years of Blacks (and Women) Wanting the vote and Campaigning for the vote before the Jim Crow restrictions on Black voting could be successfully overturned.

It also took a cultural shift in the attitudes of White America (or Male America in the case of the women's vote) before the movements for equal rights were sucessful.

Women should be allowed to vote anywhere in the world, IMHO. They should be encouraged and assisted to actively seek the vote where they're denied the vote.

However, until there is a shift in cultural attitudes -- among both men and women -- to the point where women are considered independent and competent individuals by at least a significnt minority, if not an outright majority, women's suffrage is merely a sham that gives a political advantage to men with wives and daughters.

Women CAN -- and many will -- determine that a "secret ballot" means their husband/father will never know how they voted. However, they have to get past the cultural conditioning that keeps them from having opinions of their own -- especially the conditoning that a woman's disobedience is a SIN that will damn them whether their husband/father ever finds out or not.

From a western viewpoint, it's difficult to understand the effects of cultural conditioning in a repressive culture. It seems glaringly obvious that women would be better off if they were free and independent with minds and opinions of their own.

However, even in "western" cultures there is still a strong minority of both men and women who believe a woman's place is "barfoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen."

The fact that MOST of those with that opinion are old -- and growing steadily older and less numerous -- is good sign. It demonstrates that the younger generation is accepting the "new" way of thinking of women as equals. In another generation, the "barefoot, pregnant and in the Kitchen" viewpoint will hopefully be completely discredited.

The cultures Middle East and Afghanistan are just beginning the process that Western societies began about 200 years ago -- they have a long way to go in changing the cultural attitudes that will permit women the kinds of equality the west takes for granted.

Under the Shah, Iran was forced into a western style equality on the surface, but underneath, the traditional cultural attitudes held on. The result was the Ayatollah Khomenei and the Fundamentalist revolution that set women's rights in Iran back nearly a century from where they were before the Shah forced his reforms on the Irani people.

The Taliban regime in Afghanistan was, IMHO, another backlash against culture shock and being "too western too fast" under the Soviet occupation. There was more than culture shock at work there, but the severity of Taliban repression of women was in large part a result of the freedom women had gained under the soviets.

I'm all for westernizing Afghanistan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia -- along with all of the "backward" countries of Africa, Asia, and South America -- but I recognise the danger of a backlash if reforms are pushed too fast.

Real change in the status of women and minorities takes time -- generations worth of time because the "old ways" have to die off naturally.

I do mean "die off" in a literal sense; the old tend to hang onto the "way things have always been done" and resist change. When you factor in the resistance of a dominant patriarchal religion and low-tech communications, the time required to effect real change is multiplied.

Failing to take a step forward as fast as Western values dictate is not a "step back for humanity." Rather it's probably a wise choice by people who know just how fast change can be forced on their population -- people who incidently are already deparately holding off a fundamentalist coup in the style of the Iranian overthrow of the Shah; which WOULD be a giant step backwards for human rights in general and women's rights in particular.

 

[Lord Naraku]

Ok before you read my thoughts on this matter, please understand that I believe everyone is equal. I was born and raised in the USA. I have no problems with women's lib. or any of those type organizations.

The issue of allowing women in Arab countries to vote is really very difficult. See we have all been raised that equality is standard, the Arab ppl where raised the opposite way. The core of a culture is it's family structure. The Arab family structure is very sable the man provides for and helps to guide the children. The women raise the children. The children are raised by their parents in a very sable organized structure.

However look at say the USA family structure. IMO there are far too many single parent families. Alot of times children in these single parent families are not really raised by their overworked parent, but instead raised by their environment and the cable TV/mass media system. Based on US history facts we see the decline of the family is in direct relation to the increases in various forms of crime. That is the weaker the family system becomes the more crime we see.

Overall we are not asking the Arabs to give women more rights, we are asking them to begin to change the very core of their culture. Voting now yes, but this will give way to equality sooner or later. We view this as simple as flipping a light switch, but for them this is a decision that could destroy their culture.

I will break this down into a simple question. I come to you and give you two options. One change your family around in an alien way, this could destroy your entire family in just a few generations. Two continue on as your family has for untold generations. I will choose option two everytime, wouldn't you?

I am not an Arab and I do not begin to tell them to change or to conform. I think the issues of husbands beating and abusing their wives should become a serious legal issue in the Arab states. As to the road to equality it is a difficult path they must choose, forcing them shouldn't and isn't the way.

I hope to some day meet the right lady(PM me to apply ). Honestly I would like for her to stay home and ensure that our children are raised by us, and not by a destructive environment/cable TV/mass media. If the lady doesn't agree with my views then I'll live with it. It's not about me being sexist, it's about me wanting the best possible life for my children. Not saying barefoot/kitchen/pregnant for the lady.