And....commas

[lovecraft68]

Quick question for those better with commas than I am...so everyone here including the janitor if Lit has one.

Got back the edits on the first part of my latest work. This is someone I've worked with before, but for some reason what they're doing doesn't seem consistent with what they did on my last novel(I saved the original docs to compare)

I'm seeing a lot of commas before the word and that don't seem right.

Commas generally reflect a pause, correct?

Here's one quick example

Lydia shut off the water, and grimly shook her head

Okay so reading this with and without

Lydia shut off the water and shook her head....no comma and reads with no hesitation and to me sounds correct.

Lydia shut off the water.....and grimly shook her head. Pause, why are we pausing?

Maybe the comma there is right which is why I'm asking because for whatever reason this particular comma usage has always given me headaches.

Oh, and I'm losing grimly I'm on an anti adverb kick and this person keeps adding them in. I leave the ones that seem to be effective, this one seems wrong to me. People can feel free to render an opinion on that if they want as well

 

[SimonDoom]

In the example you gave there should not be a comma. It has nothing to do with pauses. You use a comma when you have two independent clauses, which are sentences that can stand alone joined by a conjunction like "and." In this case you don't have that. You have a compound predicate, meaning two verbs joined by "and." No comma for that.

 

[SimonDoom]

Good call on the adverb, too.

 

[oggbashan]

Grammarly keeps insisting I add more and more commas.

No thanks. I have too many already.

 

[LoquiSordidaAdMe]

Commas generally reflect a pause, correct?

Here's one quick example

Lydia shut off the water, and grimly shook her head

Yes, but they also separate items in a list or series of events. But generally you only need commas if there are three or more items. If the example had been

Lydia shut off the water, dried her hands, and grimly shook her head

then an Oxford comma before the 'and' could be appropriate (if that's the style you chose to use and it was used consistently). But in the original example, no I don't think the comma is necessary.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Grammarly keeps insisting I add more and more commas.

No thanks. I have too many already.

Funny, Gammarly want me to take out a lot of commas.

 

[SimonDoom]

Funny, Gammarly want me to take out a lot of commas.

It probably says something about one's drafting style. My tendency in a first draft is to leave commas out, so my grammar/punctuation checkers usually advise me to add commas rather than remove them.

 

[ilamont]

When I first started writing it looked like I applied commas to my work with a shotgun. It has been one of my most difficult 'bad habits' to overcome. I find that occasionally reading my writing out loud helps point out the ones that are not necessary (I just removed two commas from this sentence...).

 

[HeyAll]

This seems really excessive:


Lydia shut off the water, and grimly shook her head


This example is more reasonable in my opinion, of using one comma in a sentence before the word 'and' :

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated, and they were both gasping for air.


I think it's okay to break the sentence with a comma before 'and' if the sentence is long. Doesn't seem to work in a short sentence.

 

[SimonDoom]

This seems really excessive:


Lydia shut off the water, and grimly shook her head


This example is more reasonable in my opinion, of using one comma in a sentence before the word 'and' :

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated, and they were both gasping for air.


I think it's okay to break the sentence with a comma before 'and' if the sentence is long. Doesn't seem to work in a short sentence.

The use of a comma here is correct, but it's because the words after the "and" form an independent clause -- a sentence that stands on its own if you remove the "and." The general rule is to insert a comma when you join independent clauses.

Lovecraft's example does not involve an independent clause. It's a compound predicate where the subject is Lydia, and she's doing two things: shutting off and shaking. No comma is needed in that situation.

 

[LoquiSordidaAdMe]

I think it's okay to break the sentence with a comma before 'and' if the sentence is long. Doesn't seem to work in a short sentence.

Agreed. To expand on that a bit, the first example

Lydia shut off the water, and grimly shook her head

only has a single subject (Lydia) taking two consecutive actions. It is still a simple sentence with a compound predicate. The second example

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated, and they were both gasping for air.

Is a compound sentence with two distinct subjects ('the race' and 'they') each taking separate actions ('ended' and 'gasping'). It could as easily be written as two distinct sentences. The addition of the comma to separate the different ideas is warranted here.

 

[Handley_Page]

Lydia shut off the water, and grimly shook her head

Okay so reading this with and without

Lydia shut off the water and shook her head....
no comma and reads with no hesitation and to me sounds correct.

Lydia shut off the water.....and grimly shook her head. Pause, why are we pausing?

There are (possibly?) TWO events happening at this time.
Lydia was doing something [domestic ?] and got interrupted causing her to desist by turning off the water, and using some mental effort on the new problem.

On the other hand, the second event may not have an exterior source (like the sink was filling too rapidly ?)

 

[Bramblethorn]

The use of a comma here is correct, but it's because the words after the "and" form an independent clause -- a sentence that stands on its own if you remove the "and." The general rule is to insert a comma when you join independent clauses.

More specifically, the comma is correct when you join them with a conjunction as in the example from HeyAll.

If you were joining two independent clauses without a conjunction ("and", "but", etc.) then a semicolon would be appropriate.

So:

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated, and they were both gasping for air. (Independent clauses + conjunction.)

but:

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated; they were both gasping for air. (Independent clauses without conjunction.)

In the latter example, it would probably be better style just to split it into two sentences, but sometimes you really want both clauses in one sentence.

On LC's other point, adding adverbs is an unusual thing for an editor to do. I might suggest removing adverbs if I felt they were weakening the prose, but unless it's something where omitting the adverb actually shifts the meaning (e.g. forgotten "not") then adding them feels outside an editor's role.

If I really felt a scene was too bare and needed more adverbs for colour, I'd make that as a general comment and leave the author to decide which adverbs to add.

 

[SimonDoom]

More specifically, the comma is correct when you join them with a conjunction as in the example from HeyAll.

If you were joining two independent clauses without a conjunction ("and", "but", etc.) then a semicolon would be appropriate.

So:

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated, and they were both gasping for air. (Independent clauses + conjunction.)

but:

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated; they were both gasping for air. (Independent clauses without conjunction.)

In the latter example, it would probably be better style just to split it into two sentences, but sometimes you really want both clauses in one sentence.

On LC's other point, adding adverbs is an unusual thing for an editor to do. I might suggest removing adverbs if I felt they were weakening the prose, but unless it's something where omitting the adverb actually shifts the meaning (e.g. forgotten "not") then adding them feels outside an editor's role.

If I really felt a scene was too bare and needed more adverbs for colour, I'd make that as a general comment and leave the author to decide which adverbs to add.

Agreed. The editor's suggestion to add "grimly" is questionable as well in this case because it makes the compound predicate non-parallel: there's an adverb to modify "shook" but none to modify "shut off."

 

[lovecraft68]

More specifically, the comma is correct when you join them with a conjunction as in the example from HeyAll.

If you were joining two independent clauses without a conjunction ("and", "but", etc.) then a semicolon would be appropriate.

So:

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated, and they were both gasping for air. (Independent clauses + conjunction.)

but:

The race ended further from the starting point than anticipated; they were both gasping for air. (Independent clauses without conjunction.)

In the latter example, it would probably be better style just to split it into two sentences, but sometimes you really want both clauses in one sentence.

On LC's other point, adding adverbs is an unusual thing for an editor to do. I might suggest removing adverbs if I felt they were weakening the prose, but unless it's something where omitting the adverb actually shifts the meaning (e.g. forgotten "not") then adding them feels outside an editor's role.

If I really felt a scene was too bare and needed more adverbs for colour, I'd make that as a general comment and leave the author to decide which adverbs to add.

That, along with a couple other things, is why they only did part one of the book. I'm not pleased with the work, not to mention I now have more work cut out for e because now I'm searching through 34k removing adverbs and trying to figure out the comma game.

They had done a project for me a year ago and hadn't done this...weird.

 

[lovecraft68]

Agreed. The editor's suggestion to add "grimly" is questionable as well in this case because it makes the compound predicate non-parallel: there's an adverb to modify "shook" but none to modify "shut off."

Yeah grimly didn't seem to fit.

Then there's instances where they keep doubling up words. I'm sure there's a proper name for it, but that's what I call it.

Example "Screamed in shocked agony"

To me agony suffices and it reminds me of the exchange in a few Good men

"Danger"

Grave Danger?

Is there any other kind?

They wrote romance novels and I wonder if things like that are common in that genre being extra descriptive etc...

People often complain here its hard to find a decent editor on lit...its doesn't get easier in the pay market.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Then there's instances where they keep doubling up words. I'm sure there's a proper name for it, but that's what I call it.

"A redundant tautology, endlessly repeated," he grimly said, again and again, over and over. Would this repetition never stop, never cease, go on endlessly forever?

Lovecraft despaired, and dug the hole deeper. She was the fourth editor this week. Sooner or later, the agency would wise up, but for now, it was the only way to get the damn job done.

 

[SimonDoom]

To me agony suffices and it reminds me of the exchange in a few Good men

"Danger"

Grave Danger?

Is there any other kind?

.

That was good for a laugh. That's such a great scene.

I can have the reporter read back the transcript.

Sounds like your instincts are pretty good, and maybe a new editor is in order.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yeah grimly didn't seem to fit.

Then there's instances where they keep doubling up words. I'm sure there's a proper name for it, but that's what I call it.

Example "Screamed in shocked agony"

As well as being overwritten, that seems grammatically wrong to me. It's like writing "I fell over in a clumsy supermarket" - the adjective is attached to the wrong noun.

It would be more grammatical to write something like "screamed in shock and agony". But I might go with just "screamed".

 

[lovecraft68]

"A redundant tautology, endlessly repeated," he grimly said, again and again, over and over. Would this repetition never stop, never cease, go on endlessly forever?

Lovecraft despaired, and dug the hole deeper. She was the fourth editor this week. Sooner or later, the agency would wise up, but for now, it was the only way to get the damn job done.

Know what an infinity cover is in comics? That's what it feels like.

But as my wife reminded me yesterday this is the difference between writing for fun and it becoming real work.

 

[lovecraft68]

As well as being overwritten, that seems grammatically wrong to me. It's like writing "I fell over in a clumsy supermarket" - the adjective is attached to the wrong noun.

It would be more grammatical to write something like "screamed in shock and agony". But I might go with just "screamed".

In dialogue I tend to be wordy, but when it comes to narrative I'm more bare bones. Maybe some day I'll hit the balance.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That, along with a couple other things, is why they only did part one of the book. I'm not pleased with the work, not to mention I now have more work cut out for e because now I'm searching through 34k removing adverbs and trying to figure out the comma game.

If you have a copy of the pre-edited version, you can use a compare tool to find the edits quickly, even if they haven't switched on Track Changes.

https://support.office.com/en-us/ar...document-f5059749-a797-4db7-a8fb-b3b27eb8b87e <- MS Word instructions, but there are various tools to do the same sort of thing with other formats.

 

[lovecraft68]

If you have a copy of the pre-edited version, you can use a compare tool to find the edits quickly, even if they haven't switched on Track Changes.

https://support.office.com/en-us/ar...document-f5059749-a797-4db7-a8fb-b3b27eb8b87e <- MS Word instructions, but there are various tools to do the same sort of thing with other formats.

Nice! Thank you.

 

[Kethandra]

In dialogue I tend to be wordy, but when it comes to narrative I'm more bare bones. Maybe some day I'll hit the balance.

A lot of your stuff I have read is well balanced, in my opinion. Some characters are wordy and their wordy dialogue says something about them. Now, if every character had wordy dialogue, that’s on you. There are many readers that skim through exposition and read all the dialogue.

Adverbs are overused, but so is the admonition to not use adverbs. In dialogue, I often use adjectives ‘incorrectly’ as adverbs (leaving off the -ly) as that is how many people speak. If the character uses adverbs properly, it is saying they are likely more educated, well-read, or precise in their speech.

That addition of ‘grimly’ is gratuitous and jarring. If she makes a grim face, shakes her head in disgust, grits her teeth and growls in disgust at the mirror, it would show something about her state of mind, rather than the more remote telling.