an opinion on abbreviated words in poetry

[wildsweetone]

a year ago i was given a book of poetry written by a current new zealand poet. i (and thirty others) were given the book because the book was not able to be sold.

one of the reasons for the book's non sales were that too many poems within the book contained abbreviated words.

reading the poems in this particular book i was struck by how odd it made the poems feel. it was not smooth, easy reading. i equate it to listening to a person stutter during speech.

i don't think that abbreviated words in poetry is ever going to be accepted as 'normal' writing. i think that the gallery where our work hangs begins to look like it's hanging paint splotches when i keep seeing poems containing abbreviated words.

i daresay there is a time and a place for using abbreviated words, but surely as painters of words, shouldn't we be using the whole word to give a more rounded feeling to our poems? (not to mention simply using correct english.)

'they' say the english language is an ever evolving language and i agree whole heartedly with that. but when i read & r8 u + ur b8... i think of personalised number plates, not poetry.

so, if you use the '&' sign or you use text type language, or other abbreviations in your writing, tell me why. do you think it enhances your work or are you simply not concerned with the whole deal? i'd like to know.

 

[AChild]

I would have to agree with you but I would like to see some of the work. I see poetry as a riddle, I try to give people piece of the picture and let them figure out the rest. I draw words wrong sometimes to spell attention to them.

If the poets words pull the reader into their world then its gotta be a good thing. If it just takes away from the flow and makes the riddle impossible then it's bad.

 

[EriAliSaa]

I think I have no problem with & in a title... notably a couple.

Other than that I have no use for it... maybe for ect..... no not even then.

 

[cherries_on_snow]

I would have to agree with you but I would like to see some of the work. I see poetry as a riddle, I try to give people piece of the picture and let them figure out the rest. I draw words wrong sometimes to spell attention to them.

If the poets words pull the reader into their world then its gotta be a good thing. If it just takes away from the flow and makes the riddle impossible then it's bad.

I think I agree with this.

 

[Angeline]

Depends on the poet. Different strokes and all.

she being Brand
ee Cummings

she being Brand

-new;and you
know consequently a
little stiff i was
careful of her and(having

thoroughly oiled the universal
joint tested my gas felt of
her radiator made sure her springs were O.

K.)i went right to it flooded-the-carburetor cranked her

up,slipped the
clutch(and then somehow got into reverse she
kicked what
the hell)next
minute i was back in neutral tried and

again slo-wly;bare,ly nudg. ing(my

lev-er Right-
oh and her gears being in
A 1 shape passed
from low through
second-in-to-high like
greasedlightning)just as we turned the corner of Divinity

avenue i touched the accelerator and give

her the juice,good

__________(it

was the first ride and believe i we was
happy to see how nice she acted right up to
the last minute coming back down by the Public
Gardens i slammed on

the
internalexpanding
&
externalcontracting
brakes Bothatonce and

brought allofher tremB
-ling
to a:dead.

stand-
;Still)

 

[Tzara]

Depends on the poet. Different strokes and all.

And on the purpose. I was going to cite this one:

I Know A Man
Robert Creeley

As I sd to my
friend, because I am
always talking,—John, I

sd, which was not his
name, the darkness sur-
rounds us, what

can we do against
it, or else, shall we &
why not, buy a goddamn big car,

drive, he sd, for
christ's sake, look
out where yr going.​

 

[champagne1982]

Depends on the poet. Different strokes and all.

she being Brand
ee Cummings

she being Brand

-new;and you
know consequently a
little stiff i was
careful of her and(having

thoroughly oiled the universal
joint tested my gas felt of
her radiator made sure her springs were O.

K.)i went right to it flooded-the-carburetor cranked her

up,slipped the
clutch(and then somehow got into reverse she
kicked what
the hell)next
minute i was back in neutral tried and

again slo-wly;bare,ly nudg. ing(my

lev-er Right-
oh and her gears being in
A 1 shape passed
from low through
second-in-to-high like
greasedlightning)just as we turned the corner of Divinity

avenue i touched the accelerator and give

her the juice,good

__________(it

was the first ride and believe i we was
happy to see how nice she acted right up to
the last minute coming back down by the Public
Gardens i slammed on

the
internalexpanding
&
externalcontracting
brakes Bothatonce and

brought allofher tremB
-ling
to a:dead.

stand-
;Still)

Remember Darkmaas' Erotic WooWoo challenge? I wrote the poem "The Oil Change" in answer. I think the crazy number guy (1201) or someone just as clever, directed me to this poem as he saw some similiarities.

e.e. has been a source for inspiration in my writing when it comes to syntax, shape and format ever since. At first it annoyed me but, now, his style and wit are definite amusements.

I think as a poet, we have to remember who we're writing for (the reader) and that it is up to us as the artist to place the vision in front of the audience and let them experience the piece in whatever way they see fit.

If I use stylizations of punctuation, white space and symbology in a poem, isn't it up to me to relinquish their interpretations to the world once I put it out there for anyone to see? Yes, of course.

As a reader, when I see those same techniques, shouldn't I be responsible enough to acquaint all of my senses with the art in order to be sure I've experienced all it has to offer? Yes, if I want to.

The only person with a definite obligation is the writer, everyone else can take it or leave it. Maybe the publisher should research his market better so that he can have a saleable product but even so, the writer still has an obligation to create and communicate. How well this is done, is up for grabs.

 

[TheRainMan]

Depends on the poet. Different strokes and all.

she being Brand
ee Cummings

she being Brand

-new;and you
know consequently a
little stiff i was
careful of her and(having

thoroughly oiled the universal
joint tested my gas felt of
her radiator made sure her springs were O.

K.)i went right to it flooded-the-carburetor cranked her

up,slipped the
clutch(and then somehow got into reverse she
kicked what
the hell)next
minute i was back in neutral tried and

again slo-wly;bare,ly nudg. ing(my

lev-er Right-
oh and her gears being in
A 1 shape passed
from low through
second-in-to-high like
greasedlightning)just as we turned the corner of Divinity

avenue i touched the accelerator and give

her the juice,good

__________(it

was the first ride and believe i we was
happy to see how nice she acted right up to
the last minute coming back down by the Public
Gardens i slammed on

the
internalexpanding
&
externalcontracting
brakes Bothatonce and

brought allofher tremB
-ling
to a:dead.

stand-
;Still)

one could debate endlessly on the key point (to my mind) in this type of poetry -- and that is whether it works as you go, as the reader reads (in which case, it is successful), or whether it becomes the topic itself, either so distracting it makes you stop, or so much of a puzzling you have to halt and think (in which case, it is a failure).

to me, any poem which continually makes me stop to do anything but admire is a failed piece of writing.

i find this poem wonderful. i think the unique stylizations are purposeful and downright brilliant . . . in other poems (not of his), i have found similar attempts mishandled and downright bumbling. it has to do with the skill of the writer, and, as Champ said, the reactions will differ, are up for grabs.

and, so good to see you frisky, Carrie. nothing like a successful recuperation.

 

[Tzara]

a year ago i was given a book of poetry written by a current new zealand poet. i (and thirty others) were given the book because the book was not able to be sold.

one of the reasons for the book's non sales were that too many poems within the book contained abbreviated words.

reading the poems in this particular book i was struck by how odd it made the poems feel. it was not smooth, easy reading. i equate it to listening to a person stutter during speech.

i don't think that abbreviated words in poetry is ever going to be accepted as 'normal' writing. i think that the gallery where our work hangs begins to look like it's hanging paint splotches when i keep seeing poems containing abbreviated words.

i daresay there is a time and a place for using abbreviated words, but surely as painters of words, shouldn't we be using the whole word to give a more rounded feeling to our poems? (not to mention simply using correct english.)

'they' say the english language is an ever evolving language and i agree whole heartedly with that. but when i read & r8 u + ur b8... i think of personalised number plates, not poetry.

so, if you use the '&' sign or you use text type language, or other abbreviations in your writing, tell me why. do you think it enhances your work or are you simply not concerned with the whole deal? i'd like to know.

Ted Kooser talks about this—and specifically about the use of the ampersand in poetry—in The Poetry Home Repair Manual. He is wary of these kinds of devices, as he thinks (as WSO's comment confirms) that non-standard language trips up the reader and pulls them out of the world of the poem back to some place where the reader is thinking about why that ampersand (or abbreviation) is there instead of the normally formatted words they are replacing. The unusual presentation causes one to think about that (the presentation) rather than the sense of the words.

Sometimes, that might be the intended effect. Concrete poetry, for example, depends upon the reader paying at least as much attention to the typography as to the meaning of the words themselves. In concrete poems, the typography or form does as much (if not more) to convey the meaning as the sense of the words.

Something similar is true, I think, of the use of abbreviations and symbols like '&'. To work well in a poem, they need to be placed there to help the sense of the poem along—to enhance the meaning. The Creeley poem I posted earlier I think uses things that way. The poem is intentionally disjoint and stumbling in style, which reflects its content or "message" and the abbreviations further the jerkiness of how it reads.

The problem is when the writer adopts some stylistic device (I would also add in other devices like odd indentations and formatting here) purely to be "different" or distinctive. If that is the only reason it is there, it's probably not a good reason.

 

[Maria2394]

Accidentally, yes, I picked up a book of "experimental" poetry at BAM one day...and read through quickly. The & 's at every other space, I didnt like them, distracted from the poetry and made me just think the poet was lazy...hehe

 

[wildsweetone]

Accidentally, yes, I picked up a book of "experimental" poetry at BAM one day...and read through quickly. The & 's at every other space, I didnt like them, distracted from the poetry and made me just think the poet was lazy...hehe

i think that's a serious key. the poems that have been quoted in the thread so far are all easy to understand. the shortened words and punctuation use seem to enhance the story within the poems.

when a poet uses punctuation or abbreviation without giving any thought into their specific reason for being inside a poem, then i feel that it shows they simply don't care about the message they're conveying.

oooohh i'm too opinionated lately. must be something in the water.

 

[EriAliSaa]

must be something in the water.

That's it I'm not drinking the water! My luck it will just net me another kid

 

[Tzara]

txt po8

cd IB the 1 hu
zin r tik yu lt ns

Ear it takes you?

Mime sore.

E.

 

[wildsweetone]

txt po8

cd IB the 1 hu
zin r tik yu lt ns

Ear it takes you?

Mime sore.

E.

you should have put that up before i supped my red wine. don't change a thing! i am going to spend the weekend working it out.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Not just the USA, UK and the Euro mass
have addapted abbreviations in their slang
The UN, CIA, FBI and ICPO
chase the ATN, ANC and the BAD
while others watch the NBA, NRA and or the CBS and CNN news
not to mention the ARTS, JOHNS AND JIMS
calling children kids from the TV, VCR and DVD
taking out ADs and requesting INFO
while speed reading poetry and novels
from B&N, The WEB and LIT <grin

 

[wildsweetone]

Not just the USA, UK and the Euro mass
have addapted abbreviations in their slang
The UN, CIA, FBI and ICPO
chase the ATN, ANC and the BAD
while others watch the NBA, NRA and or the CBS and CNN news
not to mention the ARTS, JOHNS AND JIMS
calling children kids from the TV, VCR and DVD
taking out ADs and requesting INFO
while speed reading poetry and novels
from B&N, The WEB and LIT <grin

sounds like a pandemic to me.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

sounds like a pandemic to me.

I thought of some other abbreviations today
your topic is a good one, abbreviations work well in their place but I agree they do not work well in poetry.

 

[Liar]

Reminded me of this.



Spree 2
by Icingsugar

WTF? OMG!

Just who
do you think
you are?

Just what
are you trying
to say?

Make sense!
Make amends!
Make way!

You're PVC,
you're too PC,
you fail, you fade,
you're not like me!

You FUBAR fucking FUD.
A DUI, an SOB.

WTF? LOL!

Just what
are you trying
to prove?

Just why
are you flashing
your lack?

Lack of wit,
lack of tact,
lack of groove.

You're all PS,
you're PMS,
a BTW,
no more, no less

A parenthesis DOA
A nothingness
in looped excess.

 

[Angeline]

one could debate endlessly on the key point (to my mind) in this type of poetry -- and that is whether it works as you go, as the reader reads (in which case, it is successful), or whether it becomes the topic itself, either so distracting it makes you stop, or so much of a puzzling you have to halt and think (in which case, it is a failure).

to me, any poem which continually makes me stop to do anything but admire is a failed piece of writing.

i find this poem wonderful. i think the unique stylizations are purposeful and downright brilliant . . . in other poems (not of his), i have found similar attempts mishandled and downright bumbling. it has to do with the skill of the writer, and, as Champ said, the reactions will differ, are up for grabs.

and, so good to see you frisky, Carrie. nothing like a successful recuperation.

I agree with you (surprised? ). I find this poem by Cummings brilliant and highly erotic, and that is what the whole poem expresses to me. The odd stylings with abbreviations, punctuations, weird breaks serve to further the poem's purpose. On the other hand, I've seen poems by many writers (Cummings among them for that matter) that I read and get caught up in the stylistic effluvia--at which point I feel I've missed the theme of the poem. That is not so good. Everything in a poem should work to express the whole piece: not break it into commas and ampersands and such. At least that's my goal when I write (and read!).

And ditto on seeing Carrie in good spirits and opnionating--I know that means she's feeling better.

 

[Greg_H]

Poetic Prohibitions

According to my instructors at the Columbia School of Bong-making and Literary Arts, all manner of contractions, abbreviations and "l33t sp33k" are prohibited in poetry. Also not allowed:

Use of the 'kth' dipthong, as in the word ichthyosaur.

References to marmosets, especially in amorous pursuit. Generally applies to all New World monkeys or members of the subfamily Callitrichinae.

Red No. 2

Fatuous praise for the "Larry Sanders Show". Come on, that was, like, 15 years ago.

 

[cherries_on_snow]

According to my instructors at the Columbia School of Bong-making and Literary Arts, all manner of contractions, abbreviations and "l33t sp33k" are prohibited in poetry. Also not allowed:

Use of the 'kth' dipthong, as in the word ichthyosaur.

References to marmosets, especially in amorous pursuit. Generally applies to all New World monkeys or members of the subfamily Callitrichinae.

Red No. 2

Fatuous praise for the "Larry Sanders Show". Come on, that was, like, 15 years ago.

Hah! oh but I actually saw an ichthyosaur poem the other day in a poetry book themed on dinosaurs! That reminds me: I should read one of those today and let the little students pretend to have dinosaur jaws after or something silly.

Welcome to the poetry forum, Greg. And, brother, can you spare a bong?

 

[Angeline]

Hah! oh but I actually saw an ichthyosaur poem the other day in a poetry book themed on dinosaurs! That reminds me: I should read one of those today and let the little students pretend to have dinosaur jaws after or something silly.

Welcome to the poetry forum, Greg. And, brother, can you spare a bong?

My son had a dinosaur obsession from age 2 to 8. I must have read Tyrannosaurus Was a Beast by Jack Prelutsky to him--oh about 42,000 times. God bless icthyosaur poems and Jack Prelutsky (and Shel Silverstein for that matter). They made my boy love poetry: all things in good poems are (more than) acceptable.

Right on Greg (and welcome to the POBO) and hi there cherries.





http://www.schwartzbooks.com/mas_assets/full/91/0688115691.jpg

 

[Greg_H]

Eccck-am's Razor

Thank you, gentle sentients, for pointing out my rather smarmy, original point, which is that the only "rules" in poetry are those which are waiting to be broken, destroyed, and re-assembled back into new rules, which will then be... well, you get the point.

I will warn you, however, that I am the worst type of armchair quatrain quarterback; I may discuss acts of poesy at length, but you will rarely catch me committing one.

 

[Recidiva]

Thank you, gentle sentients, for pointing out my rather smarmy, original point, which is that the only "rules" in poetry are those which are waiting to be broken, destroyed, and re-assembled back into new rules, which will then be... well, you get the point.

I will warn you, however, that I am the worst type of armchair quatrain quarterback; I may discuss acts of poesy at length, but you will rarely catch me committing one.

But when you do, they're doozies.

 

[Greg_H]

Husker Du?

Hey, do you remember that iambic pentameter thing I was commissioned to do for Burning Man, '97? Around the time I had that peyote connection?

Well, I sure as hell don't. I was hoping you did.