an issue of "consent"

[kristydoll]

This comes down to being an issue of consent. If someone is emotionally or intellectually unstable, can they still give the proper consent to "scene"? I, myself, believe I am in full capacity to consent to "scene". Saying this, I experienced something yesterday that makes me rethink this issue.

How I felt yesterday can only be compared to an "addict needing a fix". I not only had an overpowering urge to scene - I needed it. The need, for whatever reason I can not explain, could not be put aside. It invaded my thoughts and thinking to the point that I could not work. I literally spent most of the day shaking and jumpy. If there had been a back alley play party somewhere, I would have been there!

This is not a normal occurence for me, in fact, this is the first time it's ever happened. This brings me to the point of the topic. Would I have considered myself "in my right mind"? - I don't think so. I can not say for sure because I did not act on this urge, but I am willing to bet I would have agreed to things past my "limits" for that chance to scene - the need was that great.

I know I am always responsible for the choices I make, but my question is this. How much would my partner have been responsible, if any? Would I have been capable of actually giving "consent"? I'm not sure of the answer. Those who know me would have known I was in an aggitated state and not "myself", but a new partner would not have been. Is there times when someone is not capable of giving "consent"?

 

[Lancecastor]

1.If someone is emotionally or intellectually unstable, can they still give the proper consent to "scene"?

2. I did not act on this urge

3. I know I am always responsible for the choices I make,

4. Is there times when someone is not capable of giving "consent"?

Hi;

I've trimmed your bush of a thread starting post down to what I think are the key issues; my thoughts are numbered to match.

1. Grey area, I think, on this. First, legal consent in BDSM varies jusisdictionally by statute as well as by case law. Criminal and civil tests of consent and capacity differ as well. But if you are just having an odd day and are otherwise normal, the likely answer is your ability to give consent and have capacity are legally unchanged.

2. This is a key point. You did not act, therefore you are in control and likely as sane as you were yesterday.

3. Also key for the same reason...you understand and appreciate the nature and consequences of your actions.

4. Sure...drunk, stoned, abducted, persuaded by a person in authority....tons of ways consent can be temporarily considered absent.

If I didn't know you and we scened and expanded your linits that day.....no skin off my nose as long as you're thinking straight when you consented and you are otherwise normal, subject to the laws of the land where and when we scened.

Whew!



Consult a lawyer.

Cheers;

Lance

 

[artful]

Originally posted by kristydoll
Normally I don't post to questions this VAGUE,...there is jus too many variables to consider,...but I will try.
I would have agreed to things past my "limits" for that chance to scene - the need was that great.What SPECIFIC type of 'scene' are you talking about? Having your nipples sucked on gently?

How much would my partner have been responsible, if any?Responsible for what? Would I have been capable of actually giving "consent"?No one HERE can honestly answer that question for you. Is there times when someone is not capable of giving "consent"?Yes.

I am not trying to be facetious here at all,...I am trying ONLY, to give you information with my post, as to how little you have given the Forum to consider in regards to the issue.

Please re-state it with PARTICULARS,...and many will be able to respond with their opinions. The issue of consent is an important topic.

 

[kristydoll]

Am sorry this came out so vague and bushy - was not my intention. It's harder to explain than I thought because that feeling was a new one.

2. This is a key point. You did not act, therefore you are in control and likely as sane as you were yesterday.

Actually, the reason I did not act on this urge was not an issue of my control, but rather, lack of opportunity. If the opportunity had been present - I would have.


I would have agreed to things past my "limits" for that chance to scene - the need was that great. What SPECIFIC type of 'scene' are you talking about? Having your nipples sucked on gently?

I was speaking of hard limits. For example, a hard limit for me is asphixiation. Now, had I been able to scene, and was offered flogging with asphixiation play, I probably would have consented to that for the opportunity to fill my need to scene.

I also know that the Dom would not be responsible for my actions, only for accepting my consent. I guess the question here was, for a Dom/me, if consent was given out of a need to scene (and not the need to expand a limit), even though it disregarded the sub's limits, would you still accept that consent?

And you are right, Art, consent is a serious issue. I do take it seriously. That is why I brought this up. I have never felt a "need" like that before - and all I was saying is that I do think it would have distorted my ability to consent in a responsible manner.

kristy

 

[Cirrus]

Geez. Good post, tough call.

The fact that you think you weren't in your right mind tells me you were. Crazy people, or temporarily crazy people, never know they're crazy. I suspect that if you did get an opportunity to scene, hard limits would have remained so. Sure, you might have tried them, but likely would have safeworded out. We'll never know since you didn't scene, but that's my guess.

I've been in a similar situation, though not one of the magnitude you describe. There was a day, I don't know what got into me, but I couldn't get enough. Drawing blood is a hard limit for me...if I'm bleeding, I've gone "too far" in my book. Still, He and I were playing one day, all he had was his belt, so we went with that. He couldn't hit me hard enough. Every time he asked if I could take more, I said yes. We got to a point that HE stopped because he said any harder, and it would cut. I didn't care at that point, I would have gone for it.

The next day, nursing the welts, I'm glad he stopped.

I think it is possible for us to get addicted of sorts to the sensations we experience in a scene. There are legitimate biochemical reasons that some of us respond like we do, even to nilla sex. Ever go a long time without having sex, and think its no big deal after a while? Then, after you have sex, it's all you want from that point on? Something like that...

 

[~Dream~]

i would also think that

it also depended a great deal on how "well' your Dom KNEW You ,wouldnt He possibly be able to tell that you are not acting your "usual self ?" given the fact if you had been together long enough that is ...just a thought .. sorry you had to go through that hun ..

 

[artful]

Cirrus

Geez. Good post, tough call.
He and I were playing one day, all he had was his belt, so we went with that. He couldn't hit me hard enough. Every time he asked if I could take more, I said yes. We got to a point that HE stopped because he said any harder, and it would cut. I didn't care at that point, I would have gone for it.

The next day, nursing the welts, I'm glad he stopped.

Ahhh,...what a great insight to THINGS that can happen, when a Dom is not familiar with his sub. I'm sure kristy can relate well to the example you set forth.

There is always a certain amount of responsibility for a subs safety, by the Dom/me, while "In scene". There is simply no excuse for lack of 'common sense'.

Therein lies the DANGER of playing solo with a NEW Dom/me. I have never played in a group setting,...but common sense tells me it's a LOT safer for unfamiliars to start that way. ESPECIALLY, when one or both are inexperienced.

I will keep an eye on this thread,...like I said,...it's an important topic,...at least to ME.

 

[lillum]

Kristydoll I can only speak from my own expierences on this. I feel strongly about only playing with someone who knows you and your limits and knows how that *must have* feeling makes you feel loser about things than you nornally do. I get like this often and I always want more than I should get longer harder please I tell him.He does take care of me and at these times he will push me a little farther than usually because he knows I need it and will take me just so far this it part of his job and any good dominant.A dominant should take time to get to know you and care for your safety this includes your emotional saftey as well.I know he will take care when I'am in one of my *got to have it* moods and yes it's addticting.I don't know if this helps.BTW I think about playing all the time and every chance I get I daydream about it...lillum

 

[artful]

lillum

A dominant should take time to get to know you and care for your safety this includes your emotional saftey as well.

I agree lillum with the above <snip>. I think it's BEST for ME to have one on one relationships, where I can slowly take my time, in *KNOWING* my sub,...her needs,...her desires.

I realise this won't be what ALL agree with,..but it's how I like to proceed. (ymmv)

 

[Pure]

KD raised the issue of consent in this circumstance.

[KD:]
How I felt yesterday can only be compared to an "addict needing a fix". I not only had an overpowering urge to scene - I needed it. The need, for whatever reason I can not explain, could not be put aside. It invaded my thoughts and thinking to the point that I could not work. I literally spent most of the day shaking and jumpy. If there had been a back alley play party somewhere, I would have been there! //

The law does recognize diminished capacity, but being in the grip of an urge may not quite be enough. If you look at a number of acts, from having intercourse, to exhibiting oneself, to groping a stranger on the bus, the person might indeed have been 'taken over' by an urge, and I don't think it would help his/her defense.

There are cases where a compulsion is so strong that it completely takes over and all other thoughts vanish, i.e., in some cases where someone hits you. (Iow there is no thought of consequences or that the act is wrong or illegal) That makes it almost a psychiatric defense, which might fly in some courts. As pointed out, though, you were in this case, in part, observing the compulsion; you let there be no opportunity--for you could have gone searching and probably turned up something, perhaps Mr. Goodbar.

As you know, a great many folks want to evade responsibility. Hence on some colleges campuses, attempts to pressure are seen as coercive, so coercive as to obliterate consent; the woman has claimed her consent therefore did not exist. Personally, I find that objectionable in the routine cases of 'pressure'; if for instance a guy says "I won't be your friend any more if you don't have sex', then I don't think the woman's capacity to consent is taken away; that approach infantizes her.

 

[serijules]

This comes down to being an issue of consent. If someone is emotionally or intellectually unstable, can they still give the proper consent to "scene"?

I am a firm believer in responsibility. If the partner KNEW someone was emotionally or intellectually unstable, still accepted the consent and something went wrong and all the sudden starts blaming that person's unstability....well, they had to have known the risk they were taking by playing with someone obviously making a poor choice. I dunno though...it goes both ways. Kind of like if you let your drunk friend drive you home, she gets in an accident, and you blame her for your injuries.

How I felt yesterday can only be compared to an "addict needing a fix". I not only had an overpowering urge to scene - I needed it. The need, for whatever reason I can not explain, could not be put aside. It invaded my thoughts and thinking to the point that I could not work. I literally spent most of the day shaking and jumpy. If there had been a back alley play party somewhere, I would have been there!

I can actually relate to this. A few months ago I was so desperate to play, so desperate to get a real punishment scene that has been the core of my fantasies for a long time...that I got myself into a dangerous situation and ignored all my own rules and my own common sense. All that really mattered, was getting that scene, finally getting that scene. It was all rather unreasonable.

This is not a normal occurence for me, in fact, this is the first time it's ever happened. This brings me to the point of the topic. Would I have considered myself "in my right mind"? - I don't think so. I can not say for sure because I did not act on this urge, but I am willing to bet I would have agreed to things past my "limits" for that chance to scene - the need was that great.

Wasn't normal for me either, at all, especially since I am usually the one preaching about safety in meeting people, safety in safewords, safety in being caned/caning someone. The need seemed to outweigh my logic. I really wasn't in my right mind, I was driven by an insane need to fulfill a fantasy, and agreed to things beyound my known limits to get that scene.

I know I am always responsible for the choices I make, but my question is this. How much would my partner have been responsible, if any? Would I have been capable of actually giving "consent"? I'm not sure of the answer. Those who know me would have known I was in an aggitated state and not "myself", but a new partner would not have been. Is there times when someone is not capable of giving "consent"?

As many said, depends on how well your partner knew you...even a new partner has the ability to question your motives and try to understand your intentions better before starting the scene.

In my case, he had never met me but knew my fears and limits very well...we had spent many many hours discussing them. He should have realized that the reality of the scene was too much for me, and stopped. That was his responsibility as the Top, in my opinion, based on what he did know about me and the signs I was giving him. I DID consent to the scene, but I also consented to the scene with the (pre-discussed) expectation that he knew what he was doing, therafor would be able to handle the situation and handle my limits and the results. He didn't.

So while I consented, I consented to a mis-leading image of what would happen, so I feel that in actuality, I didn't consent to what did happen. It all happened so suddenly and such a shock to me, that I was too scared to stop it and too confused to make the decision of what to do until it was too late.

So, based on my experience, even though I realize and accept it was my responsibility for getting myself into the situation and not respecting my own rules, and that I had the ability to stop it....it was his responsibility to respect the limits we had discussed beforehand, and to keep the scene withen what I did consent to.

Sorry to hijack your experience with my own, but that's the only way I can think of to share my feelings on the manner. It is a very confusing subject, and I don't think there is any right answer, other than that the responsibility of consent, in my opinion, lies with BOTH partners, equally.

 

[kristydoll]

serijules

Wasn't normal for me either, at all, especially since I am usually the one preaching about safety in meeting people, safety in safewords, safety in being caned/caning someone. The need seemed to outweigh my logic. I really wasn't in my right mind, I was driven by an insane need to fulfill a fantasy, and agreed to things beyound my known limits to get that scene.

This is exactly why this experience caught me off-guard as well. I, too, am not new to this lifestyle and am a big proponent of safety, education and such. In all my years in this lifestlye, I have never experienced this kind of "need" before.

And thanks for sharing your experience, it is actually a little comforting *smiles*

My whole question of consent was not to give myself an "out" had I acted on this urge, it would have been my responsibility.

kristy

 

[petrel]

this is something I brought up somewhere else recently - I had an intense need to scene - and yes I probably would have agreed to just about anything - things that are normally soft limits - and even some pretty firm limits.

Now I could have scened because my partner (who is the only person at present who I scene with) knows me well enough (we're married) not to attempt something we have discussed as beign a limit for me unless we are both prepared for it. He would certianly not take me up on - 'do anything you want with me' - which was how I was feeling.

however I didn't scene - because I had to get up and go to work the next morning and I knew If i scened I would take it hot and heavy and stil be suffering from the after effects the next day which woudl have made my work position impossible.

however it did occur to me that someone who didn't know me well could have played and then I could have been left in a mess, also it worried me that if my partner had said yes at any pount I would have completely forgotten all the reasons I shouldn't scene at that time and given 'consent'.

I'm not sure I was wholly in my right mind - and I've rasied this with R. I guess the way to be safe is when you feel that out of control you only play with people you trust wholly - and who know you well. Well enough to say - no i'm not going to take you there because you don't really know what you are asking for.

its hard though!

 

[serijules]

however it did occur to me that someone who didn't know me well could have played and then I could have been left in a mess, also it worried me that if my partner had said yes at any pount I would have completely forgotten all the reasons I shouldn't scene at that time and given 'consent'.

I'm not sure I was wholly in my right mind - and I've rasied this with R. I guess the way to be safe is when you feel that out of control you only play with people you trust wholly - and who know you well. Well enough to say - no i'm not going to take you there because you don't really know what you are asking for.

its hard though!

This reminds me of a scene I did once...

The Dom I was playing with had played with me quite a few times, and we talked at length after many of those sessions, so I think he knows me fairly well. I was laying on the bed face down, deep in subspace, and he was caning me. Towards the end of the session, he softly asked me if I had had enough, and I said no, I wanted more. I remember him looking at me for a long moment, and then saying 3 more strokes and we were done.

I wanted a lot more, was not ready to stop yet...but I was not about to disrepect him by arguing with him. At first, I was a little upset that he didn't continue, being pretty irrational and thinking it was that he didn't want to play with me anymore, that my reactions were a dissapointment to him, etc. Later on, after talking to him, I realized that HIS judgement in that moment was far more grounded than my own. He realized I was on the verge of going into a space I wasn't ready to explore yet and wouldn't be able to handle, given all that I had already experienced that weekend of playing.

It's a very secure feeling to submit to someone that has that ability to recognize such a situation. But yeah, it is hard!

 

[zipman]

Curious

I have never in my experience seen this incredibly strong "need" to scene by a sub. I do not play in public, so I have not seen a lot of other people play. Also, I may not recognized this from my own subs in the past. I think it might be difficult to differentiate "desire" from "need" in another person.

When I first read this thread, I was confused. Now I have thought about my own experience as a Dom and whether or not I have ever had that kind of burning need and I did have that overwhleming need to scene once. I refrained from doing it as I was afraid of possibly being overcome and hurting my sub. I have only felt it that once, but it was indeed scary.

I think that any overly strong need such as the ones described here are a red flag on either side of the fence. For both Subs and Doms. Safety must always be the most important consideration.

 

[serijules]

Re: Curious

I think that any overly strong need such as the ones described here are a red flag on either side of the fence. For both Subs and Doms. Safety must always be the most important consideration.

I do agree it is a red flag indeed. I scare myself silly now when I look back on my experience and realize what I allowed myself to get into. Tells me there is a deeper issue I need to resolve right now, but not really sure what that issue is.

I think sometimes it TAKES situations or urges like this though, to make us realize and recognize a deeper problem and take steps towards solving that problem before it does real damage.

 

[H piltdown]

Safe, sane and Consensual

If there are any questions, STOP!

 

[Pure]

KD said,

How I felt yesterday can only be compared to an "addict needing a fix". I not only had an overpowering urge to scene - I needed it. The need, for whatever reason I can not explain, could not be put aside. It invaded my thoughts and thinking to the point that I could not work. I literally spent most of the day shaking and jumpy. If there had been a back alley play party somewhere, I would have been there! //

Let me add a couple points. Danger can be sexy. There is a kinky sexual urge towards danger, and the adrenaline rush fuels the fires of the libido.

It used to be that bdsm was thought dangerous and that attracted people. But there's been a 'cleaning up' and presenting of a fresh face to the public, for instance with the slogan "safe, sane, and consensual." Which may mean no more than "I am a law abiding citizen and pay my taxes." But it may remind woman to be careful, and alert both parties to the legal issue of consent. (In the absence of which, there is rape.)

Men are lucky, in that a 'dangerous' encounter can be had by finding an available woman in a bar or on the street. A few get robbed, but rarely anything else, unless he met Aileen Wuornos.

Women with an appetite for danger had best be careful. There's less lee way. If it's dangerous bdsm, extreme care is needed, but that doesn't take away the urge. So the 'understanding' and 'safe' dom/me, who's well known in his/ her habits is really a mixed blessing. S/he may cane you, but s/he'll be sure to stop at a safe point, even if you say 'more, more' (as the poster above recounts). Well, then that appetite for danger is just going to go begging.

Feeling it can be pretty unsettling, in view of the consequences of
a 'back alley' encounter that KD mentions thinking about.