An interesting argument-

[FurryFury]

Yes, they deserve to have a relationship with both parents - IF - both parents are emotionally healthy. Being forced to spend time with an emotionally unhealthy parent is never good for any child.

There was some discussion earlier in this thread about which people are the best option for raising children. My opinion - and yes, it's an educated one - is that whatever mentally/emotionally HEALTHY adult(s) the child has in his/her life are the BEST people to raise him/her. If that means a single parent or a gay couple or a group of people who aren't biologically linked to him/her, then that's what it means.

I agree but I wonder if I would be considered healthy enough? That's what worries me.

I do know both my kids think I'm the best mother they know of.

 

[Bi_Kitty]

It has also made her far, far less likely to ever trust anyone or open up to them in a relationship.

This is me to a T. I'm a very independent person, my mother made sure of this when I was growing up. "You don't need no stinking man."

 

[FurryFury]

This is me to a T. I'm a very independent person, my mother made sure of this when I was growing up. "You don't need no stinking man."

Damn right!

<Warning>

A little side trip here:

When my girl was little I wanted her to feel powerful and not be stuck in female stereotypes. I chose everything from her name, to her crib to her clothes and on with that in mind.

Now I never saw any early "signs" of being a lesbian but she's says the people at school did.

I was just like, that's my girl! She wants to be the most powerful Halloween character or whatever and it doesn't matter if it's a boy character to her. You go girl! LOL!

Now I personally believe you are born with your sexual preferences but an argument could be made that her bio father completely turned her off of men for life as well.

I have always felt like gender roles shouldn't take one prisoner and prevent them from doing whatever. KWIM? I practiced that with both my kids.

I've always tended to feel I didn't need any man but I sure can and do enjoy them.

Yeah, the custody and relationship issues certainly had an impact on me and my kids in these areas. I've always told both of them, you don't need anyone. You are strong and able. You just have to decide what you want and be willing to work hard for it.

 

[sereneone4u]

I totally agree with the statement I've put in bold.

I think in general women are more like to be nurturing and less likely to kill their kids than men but yes, horrible things do happen with both sexes.

Actually, the number one killer of kids is their own mother, not fathers.

 

[FurryFury]

Actually, the number one killer of kids is their own mother, not fathers.

Really? What is your source for that fact?

 

[sereneone4u]

Really? What is your source for that fact?

Working and volunteering in the social services sector...degree in social services...many, many papers written on family dynamics including domestic violence, adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse, rape, etc.



I am not implying that men are better parents. I am saying that they are just as good or bad, usually in different ways.


It is kind of like where we warn our children to watch out for strangers....abusers are usually people they know-- a relative, a family friend, a teacher, etc.

 

[sereneone4u]

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/3109


http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/fal.html


Press Release Contact: Paul Nuti
703-528-1902 ext. 3008
Fax 703-528-3546


March 25, 2002

WHY WOMEN KILL THEIR CHILDREN

More than 200 women kill their children in the U.S. every year. Andrea Yates who drowned her five kids, and pediatrician Ellen Feinberg, of Champaign, Illinois, who stabbed her two young sons, one fatally, are not unique.

Here are some perspectives on why mothers kill their children from prominent members of the American Anthropological Association.

JILL KORBIN, expert on child abuse, who has studied mothers who killed their children.

Parents killing their children is not rare. Between three and five children are killed by their parents in the U.S. every day. Yet Andrea Yates made headline news. At the same time, a California man lit a barbecue inside his home knowing it would asphyxiate his sleeping children. Why wasn't his case saturated with media coverage in the same way? We have a cultural view of good motherhood and it acts to the detriment of women and fathers who are having substantial problems parenting, says Jill Korbin, child abuse expert who spent a year interviewing mothers in prison for killing their children

"We end up with a lot of dead kids in this country, yet we persist with the unrealistic view that this is rare behavior. These are not the isolated cases we would like to believe." Homicide is one of the leading causes of death of children under age four.

Parenting in the U.S. is extremely difficult, Korbin says. Prevention is the key. Prior to a homicide, lots of lay people know these men and women are having difficulty parenting. "The public has to be better educated in recognizing how to intervene and how to support child abuse prevention. We must start treating children more seriously," she says.

NANCY SCHEPER-HUGHES, medical anthropologist, cross-cultural studies include children and motherhood, violence, and mental illness.

Mother love is not universal. The idealization of women as natural loving mothers is a cultural belief that gets us into trouble. "We should detach from the idea of universal motherhood as natural and see it as a social response," Nancy Scheper-Hughes says. Women in jail reported that no-one believed them when they said they wanted to kill their children. "There's a collective denial even when mothers come right out and say "I really shouldn't be trusted with my kids."

Women kill their babies in poor societies. Women sometimes contribute to the death of their sickly or weak children in situations of scarcity and extreme poverty. But these women do so in response to impossibly difficult situations. Some children were seriously neglected, "sacrificed", so that older children could live.

In Brazil, Nancy Scheper-Hughes studied three generations of women in poor rural areas some of whom participated in killing their children because they felt they were meant to die. They looked for signs in the babies that showed them to be "mere household guests" passing through life. The infant was not seen as a real person but a little creature, not yet fully human. Similar things happened in India and in some parts of Africa during famines and in times of political chaos when the social norms collapsed.

SARAH HRDY, author of Mother Nature: a history of mothers, infants and natural selection.

A New Theory of Motherhood and Natural Selection. How could natural selection have produced a female that delivers babies so far beyond her capacities to rear? asks anthropologist Sarah Hrdy. A chimp or gorilla mother lactates for three to six years but once she's weaned the baby, it's completely on its own. Not so for human mothers whose children aren't independent until age 18 and who often bear other siblings inbetween. "We differ from all other apes and most monkeys in that we're cooperative breeders," she maintains, behaving more like marmosets or wild dogs in this respect. Most primate mothers rear their young without assistance. Women require more support because it takes so long for humans to mature sufficiently to provision themselves. That's why human infants are at greater risk from maternal abandonment. Human mothers are unusually sensitive to how much social support they are likely to have and explains why they are more prone to abandon babies and commit infanticide than other primates. Deliberate killing of her own infant has never been observed in wild primates.

LYNNE BOLLES, head of the AAA's section on feminist anthropology.

The father shirks his role. Mothering is seen as biological and natural whereas fatherhood is seen as social and detached. When women do something against their children it's viewed as a crime against nature. "Note how the emphasis has been put on Andrea Yates while her husband was very much the enabler. If you loved someone and knew she was severely ill each time she gave birth to another child, you'd think you'd do something about it. He limited her to the home and she had a child, and a hospital admission, almost every 18 months. Practicing birth control was a very simple thing he could have done. But he didn't."

Death as escape or resistance. African women on board slave ships crossing the Atlantic during the 16th and 17th centuries killed their children because they were demoralized about being enslaved and wanted their child "to be in a better place - and it wasn't earth," Lynne Bolles says. Some killed themselves at the same time. The same thing happened in the U.S. when slave women were raped. "It was a form of resistance; you weren't a human being, you were a commodity."


http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/munchausen_syndrome/10.html


http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/women1/1.html

While researchers repeat one another in pointing out how even in violence, women are still the gentler sex, there are times when a female shows more spunk. Instead of poison, she may grab an ax, even a gun. Instead of killing a customer who failed to pay for drugs, she might bear and kill children one at a time. (In fact, women outnumber men in the deaths of children and come equal to them in killing siblings and parents.)

 

[FurryFury]

Working and volunteering in the social services sector...degree in social services...many, many papers written on family dynamics including domestic violence, adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse, rape, etc.



I am not implying that men are better parents. I am saying that they are just as good or bad, usually in different ways.


It is kind of like where we warn our children to watch out for strangers....abusers are usually people they know-- a relative, a family friend, a teacher, etc.

I can see how your experiences and these articles might make you believe what you do. However, I see nothing in any of this comparing the overall cause of the death of kids by mothers versus fathers. I see no statistics on this at all. Did I miss it?

BTW, when I tried googling the question of the biggest killer of kids world wide I kept getting Malaria.

I still find it hard to believe that more women than men have killed kids and/or committed violence on them.

Men have so many more reasons to kill than women, at least I think so. I think women mostly kill kids when they are mentally ill and/or overwhelmed. Where as men also do that but have been known to kill for revenge, jealousy, power, irritation and money motives.

All this is simply my own opinion mind you and my impressions. I know one man that killed his child simply by not giving her the medicine he knew she needed on "his" visit, because he was stupid, uncaring and lazy.

I'm open to any statistics and/or studies that prove otherwise though. I'd be curious to know if any studies or data that compare mothers and fathers in these areas.

I do absolutely agree that people worry far too much about "strangers" than they do about family members and friends. Fortunately or not, I knew family members and friends could be very dangerous to me and and mine. Whenever possible I took steps to protect or lower the potential damage done to my kids.

 

[sereneone4u]

And I disagree. Women can not scream equal rights and complain about men holding them back and then when they commit crimes scream mental incapacity. There are similar excuses for women not to be president. Women are just as capable of killing as men are. Women have more of the care of children put upon them, it makes sense that they would be responsible for more deaths, just as the articles I posted stated. Evil knows know gender and both sexes should be held accountable for what they do.

Fathers love their children too and they are necessary, regardless of what modern society would like to think. Children who have fathers who are active in their lives get better grades and have higher self-esteem. There are many men who wish to be active parents in their children's lives and aren't allowed on the basis of their gender. Prejudice is prejudice and it is wrong whether it is perpetrated on someone because of their gender, race, religion or what have you.

It has been my experience that in family court, men are shafted and when it comes to criminal cases dealing with the battering, rape or murder of a woman, she is shafted. Neither are acceptable.

I get the feeling this is a sensitive subject for you, Fury and I can empathize. In my first marriage, I was battered. So severely at one point that I miscarried. I tried to press charges before that point and was told wives where not allowed to press charges against their husbands. Another occassion during the process of divorcing, my stbex found out where I was and attacked me. As I stood there with blood dripping down my face, the police officer told me I was not allowed to press charges because it was a Sunday. I know the brutality of men in other instances that I choose not to share here. Do I blame all men for these acts? Hell no. Anymore than I want to be held accountable for the crimes of the likes of Diana Downs or Susan Smith...or a gold digger or a woman who PAS' their children.

And the same lovely court systems that would want to take a woman's child(ren) away from her for staying with a batterer, are the same courts that will give a batterer visitation and access to the victim. However, I also know several men who are excellent fathers and where excellent husbands, married to predatory women who take them for every dime, try to destroy them financially and then refuse them their rights as parents, while demanding their entire paychecks, screwing their best friends, and using their children as pawns. I have had men call the domestic violence shelter that where victims of battering by their wives, I could not help them.

I wrote a paper on familial violence several years ago, of course the statistics will be several years old. However, any any class I have taken on such subjects, it was stated that mothers killed thier children more than fathers, stepparents, etc. Again, mother's have more of the responsibility of children usually then men do...however, regardless of the motives of either sex, you have dead children.

 

[DVS]

BTW, when I tried googling the question of the biggest killer of kids world wide I kept getting Malaria.

When Parents Kill


The first few sentences of the above link...
Women do not, by and large, make terrific criminals. In the United States, women commit only two crimes as frequently as men. The first is shoplifting. The second is the murder of their own children.

 

[FurryFury]

IMO, one has to be mentally ill to kill thier own kids period, male or female.

I still haven't seen any statistics as to who kills children most frequently. Certainly mothers would have more acess because they tend to spend the most time with the children.

I wasn't screaming equal rights and then mental incapacity.

I never said father's weren't important or didn't love their kids. I never said courts were fair to anyone.

I can tell this is a sensitive subject for both of us.

And I disagree. Women can not scream equal rights and complain about men holding them back and then when they commit crimes scream mental incapacity. There are similar excuses for women not to be president. Women are just as capable of killing as men are. Women have more of the care of children put upon them, it makes sense that they would be responsible for more deaths, just as the articles I posted stated. Evil knows know gender and both sexes should be held accountable for what they do.

Fathers love their children too and they are necessary, regardless of what modern society would like to think. Children who have fathers who are active in their lives get better grades and have higher self-esteem. There are many men who wish to be active parents in their children's lives and aren't allowed on the basis of their gender. Prejudice is prejudice and it is wrong whether it is perpetrated on someone because of their gender, race, religion or what have you.

It has been my experience that in family court, men are shafted and when it comes to criminal cases dealing with the battering, rape or murder of a woman, she is shafted. Neither are acceptable.

I get the feeling this is a sensitive subject for you, Fury and I can empathize. In my first marriage, I was battered. So severely at one point that I miscarried. I tried to press charges before that point and was told wives where not allowed to press charges against their husbands. Another occassion during the process of divorcing, my stbex found out where I was and attacked me. As I stood there with blood dripping down my face, the police officer told me I was not allowed to press charges because it was a Sunday. I know the brutality of men in other instances that I choose not to share here. Do I blame all men for these acts? Hell no. Anymore than I want to be held accountable for the crimes of the likes of Diana Downs or Susan Smith...or a gold digger or a woman who PAS' their children.

And the same lovely court systems that would want to take a woman's child(ren) away from her for staying with a batterer, are the same courts that will give a batterer visitation and access to the victim. However, I also know several men who are excellent fathers and where excellent husbands, married to predatory women who take them for every dime, try to destroy them financially and then refuse them their rights as parents, while demanding their entire paychecks, screwing their best friends, and using their children as pawns. I have had men call the domestic violence shelter that where victims of battering by their wives, I could not help them.

I wrote a paper on familial violence several years ago, of course the statistics will be several years old. However, any any class I have taken on such subjects, it was stated that mothers killed thier children more than fathers, stepparents, etc. Again, mother's have more of the responsibility of children usually then men do...however, regardless of the motives of either sex, you have dead children.

 

[FurryFury]

When Parents Kill


The first few sentences of the above link...
Women do not, by and large, make terrific criminals. In the United States, women commit only two crimes as frequently as men. The first is shoplifting. The second is the murder of their own children.

Your article pretty much echo's what I've been saying I felt was true with one exception, women kill children as frequently aka 50% of the time as men.

I thought it was less. Sereneone4u insists its more.

Interesting article. Thanks DVS.

 

[Netzach]

I imagine more women batter and kill their children than men because they are with them more often, and the expectations on them are MUCH higher. I could not agree more with the idea that you pop out the baby, you know what to do instinctively, all is fine being the most detrimental myth ever.

Our natural instinct is not going to get us through the pressure of reproduction and child rearing in a completely mad and synthetic world.

 

[sereneone4u]

IMO, one has to be mentally ill to kill thier own kids period, male or female.

I still haven't seen any statistics as to who kills children most frequently. Certainly mothers would have more acess because they tend to spend the most time with the children.

I wasn't screaming equal rights and then mental incapacity.

I never said father's weren't important or didn't love their kids. I never said courts were fair to anyone.

I can tell this is a sensitive subject for both of us.

I am sorry, I did not mean my response was towards you other than the proof that mother's kill children more often than men. My response was about the subject manner in general and not meant to imply you felt or thought those things.

 

[sereneone4u]

I imagine more women batter and kill their children than men because they are with them more often, and the expectations on them are MUCH higher. I could not agree more with the idea that you pop out the baby, you know what to do instinctively, all is fine being the most detrimental myth ever.

Our natural instinct is not going to get us through the pressure of reproduction and child rearing in a completely mad and synthetic world.

Exactly!


However, back to the original discussion on my part. I hope we can all agree that children should not be treated as possessions and that both fathers and mothers are important in the development and rearing of a child/ren. Too bad we do not live in a perfect world that would allow this to be so in every case.

 

[FurryFury]

Exactly!


However, back to the original discussion on my part. I hope we can all agree that children should not be treated as possessions and that both fathers and mothers are important in the development and rearing of a child/ren. Too bad we do not live in a perfect world that would allow this to be so in every case.

Absolutely agreed!

 

[sereneone4u]

I came across this while doing research for a project.



WHY SOME MOTHERS KILL THEIR CHILDREN


Rachel Summers, a Mufreesboro Tennessee woman is accused of poisoning her her own son to death. A 19 year old Cuban native, Mariafelix Morales is accused of killing the son she secretly gave birth to in her Shelbyville Tennessee home. Even in rural areas like these youll find these headlines. Although it seems unnatural for a woman to kill her own children it is not uncommon. More than 200 women kill their children in the US every year, according to a recent study by the American Anthropological Association.

Homicide is the leading cause of death in children under four. Not crib death as many believe and not by a maniacal stranger but by a parent. Deliberate killing of ones own infant has never been observed in wild primates. There is a direct correlation between the act and the human society. Women, for the most part, do not make the best criminals. FBI crime statistics show that women commit only two crimes as frequently as men. Shoplifting and the murder of their own children. Although women commit less than 13% of all violent crimes they are also responsible for about 50% of all parental murders.

Many of these instances are contributed to postpartum depression or Baby blues - triggered by the births themselves says Nancy Scheper- Hughes, a medical anthropologist specializig in motherhood, violence and mental illness. There are three types of Postpartum depression that mothers may experience after childbirth. The least threatening is baby blues, consisting of mild mood swings and bouts of tearfulness. This can usually be taken care of without medication or treatment, often by just attending a support group.

The next is Postpartum depression, occurring anywhere from a few days to a few months after having any child in the family. Felling very strong feelings of sadness, despair and tragedy that affect a woman's ability to function. It can get worse if untreated. It can be treated with therapy and sometimes may need medication.

Postpartum psychosis is the most serious. It is a mental disorder that sets on quickly within the first three months of child birth. The mother will loose touch with reality and have hallucinations an delusions. It almost always requires medication and an extended hospitalization. The most highly publicized of these cases is the Texas mom Andrea Yates who drowned her 5 children in the bath tub. The birth of each of her children was followed by an hospitalization for deep depression.



A high percentage of these cases are also blamed on impulses as discussed in an article by Mike Rusyigan, a criminologist and Proffessor at San Fransisco University. Impulses like rage and frustration will often end in shaken baby syndrome or suffocation from covering a crying child's mouth. About 30% are premeditated murder, named Medea killings after an ancient Greek myth, a mother kills to punish someone like a cheating or abusive husband.

Yet another type is the narcissistic idea that the child is stymieing the mothers freedom, happiness or chance at a better life.



The most famous such case is that if Susan Smith, the South Carolina mom who drowned her two boys by strapping them in a sinking car.

The reasons women kill their children are complex but more often than not there are signs of trouble before the act. Frequent bouts with depression are the most telling and most often used in court as a defense. England has instated an Infanticide Act which codifies a ready made postpartum defense. Severe poverty also lends itself to infanticide. Women often kill their children in poor societies.

Historically, the families survival is pivotal to the sacrifice of weaker children or female children. Infanticide has always soared in counties riddled with famine or during political unrest. African women on board slave ships killed their children. The amount of these cases will continue to grow each year until societal norms maintain that this is not rare behavior. Mother love is not universal. All women are not natural loving mothers. Nor does motherhood trump all illnesses and psychosis.

More than half of the 45 women on death row are there for killing their husbands and/or children and almost all reported that no one believed them when they cried out for help saying "I cannot be trusted with my children." The public must take an active role in recognizing actual child abuse and how to intervene supportively before anything Else can be done.

 

[professorquixote]

it's amazing how some of you were so quick to offend.
by something said by a 17 yr old deviant.