America's Moral Compass

[Guest]

Oh, I understand the paralysis. I think most of us feel that for a moment or two, and nearly all of us would rather not get involved.

But I'd bet my Delman ballet flats that you, SSS, would not ignore someone lying helpless in traffic...And these are not shoes to be taken lightly!

Thanks, sher.

 

[McKenna]

Too many people wait for someone else to announce by word or action that it's okay to break away from the moving herd and take independent action.

You've hit the nail on the head with that one. I suspect it's human nature to follow the herd.

I'm still troubled by it, and reading the varying responses here haven't helped any. I feel as though a few have honked, a few have defended their non-action, a few have gawked and not commented, and even fewer have "helped" the situation at all. What an interesting outcome, and not at all expected, but certainly telling nonetheless. Not America? Perhaps not. Perhaps it's human nature.

- - - - - - - - - -

I was speaking with my sister about this earlier and she told me of an investigative report --I forget which one-- where they set up situations to "test" people's reactions. In one scenario, they staged a situation where an armoured truck rounds a corner and a bag of money falls out, unbeknownst to the driver. Of the thirteen bags of "money" that fell out, eleven were returned to the company. That gives me hope. Eleven out of thirteen isn't bad.

In the other scenario, they staged a coffee shop that refused to serve a pastry to an woman wearing a burkha. They staged it well with the manager of the store portraying the role of insulting bigot. The reactions of the legitimate customers ranged from those who stood up for the woman, to those who gave the manager the thumbs up.

Interestingly, the majority of those who stood up for the "right" in both these instances were people in their ltwenties and thirties.

Perhaps there's hope for America, nay, humanity, yet?

 

[McKenna]

The other scenario my sister and I discussed (which I meant to include in my earlier post) dealt with a staged scene of road rage. Two men stop their vehicles on a bridge, blocking traffic (staged after a scene that actually happened) and start beating the hell out of each other. A crowd gathers. People watch. Until a lone woman, short of stature and demeanor, steps forward and starts yelling at the two to stop. Her action seemed to shake the rest out of their paralysis, because the crowd then got involved and the fighting stopped.

Perhaps humans are most closely related to sheep?

Baaa.

 

[tickledkitty]

Is it possible that the majority of those people didn't even see what happened? I believe people are generally self-centered, going about their business and not paying much attention to what happens around them. So, if they didn't actually see the man get hit and only saw him lying in the street afterward...I don't know. I'm not trying to justify the behavior, just understand it.

I think for those who did see it, the shock might render them motionless for a short time. When you don't quite know what to do, do you take cues from other? Yes. Sheep.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Is it possible that the majority of those people didn't even see what happened? I believe people are generally self-centered, going about their business and not paying much attention to what happens around them. So, if they didn't actually see the man get hit and only saw him lying in the street afterward...I don't know. I'm not trying to justify the behavior, just understand it.

I think for those who did see it, the shock might render them motionless for a short time. When you don't quite know what to do, do you take cues from other? Yes. Sheep.

That's a good point. The calculation changes if you think the guy is just a passed out drunk. Yeah, I know, it's still a fellow human in distress and all that, but tell me you have the same attitude and eagerness to help in that situation as this one?

One other point - the effect of being in a car. That is very depersonalizing, and perhaps in some circumstances dehumanizing. I'm ashamed to admit that my reaction would probably have differed based on this variable. If I were a ped and saw what happened I know from experience that I am a proactive kind of person, and when I feel that uncertainty and hesitation recognize it as something to be beaten down. I know that I tell myself it's better to be wrong in my assessment and embarassed after than to be right and not act. So it's hard for me to imagine not acting here, yet I still don't want to make any "Churchillian" assertion because that's so easy and talk is cheap.

But in a car? I am much less certain of how I would have reacted, and can't even say I'm optimistic. I almost certainly would have called 911 on the cell, because I've done that in the past in less dire situations (a just-hit deer blocking a lane on rural expressway on a dark night most recently). Beyond that - ???

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Perhaps humans are most closely related to sheep?

Baaa.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

"Well if that guys not helping why should I...?"

Pathetic, the whole bloody lot.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I think that pretty much sums it up.

"Well if that guys not helping why should I...?"

Pathetic, the whole bloody lot.

I dunno, I just think that's too pat. I have no doubt that in a different situation where uncertainty is eliminated practically every person who was present here would be capable of heroic courage and deeds. Or most, anyway. Rather than issue the easy condemnation I think it's much more valuable to identify the specific contect and factors that generated this outcome.

Remember, we are a young species that exists in an environment very alien from that for which we evolved, and in many circumstances our natural responses to a situation get us in trouble. Sometimes tragically so, as when they are exploited by people with malign intentions, but also in more innocent ways.

 

[tickledkitty]

I don't think people have a "why should I?" attitude. Maybe some, but not all of them. What could anyone really do for him at that point? I'm talking bystanders, not medical personnel. I'd have been afraid of making his injuries worse or even just causing him more pain.

I heard on TV or read here (can't remember which) that the guy is now paralyzed from the neck down. How do we know the person who gave him CPR didn't cause this? I know, what's the alternative, right?

I think we're all making judgments here based on what we think we'd do in a similar situation. I don't think we really know. That was a random group of people on the street. This is a random group of people here. Perhaps the overall reaction would, in fact, be similar.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

People do not want to be inconvenienced helping others. You'd be amazed at how many families refuse to assist their grandchildren in times of crisis. I've seen many grandparents dump their grandchildren into fostercare over a few dollars.

 

[shereads]

I once heard a police officer, interviewed after a parking-garage kidnapping here, advise that if you are attacked you are better off yelling, "FIRE" than "HELP."

Everybody wants to see a fire.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Inspired by the Kitty Genovese case, the oh so late and lamented Phil Ochs penned this song...

Outside Of A Small Circle Of Friends
By Phil Ochs

Look outside the window, there's a woman being grabbed
They've dragged her to the bushes and now she's being stabbed
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
But Monopoly is so much fun, I'd hate to blow the game
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Riding down the highway, yes, my back is getting stiff
Thirteen cars are piled up, they're hanging on a cliff.
Maybe we should pull them back with our towing chain
But we gotta move and we might get sued and it looks like it's gonna rain
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Sweating in the ghetto with the colored and the poor
The rats have joined the babies who are sleeping on the floor
Now wouldn't it be a riot if they really blew their tops?
But they got too much already and besides we got the cops
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Oh there's a dirty paper using sex to make a sale
The Supreme Court was so upset, they sent him off to jail.
Maybe we should help the fiend and take away his fine.
But we're busy reading Playboy and the Sunday New York Times
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

Smoking marihuana is more fun than drinking beer,
But a friend of ours was captured and they gave him thirty years
Maybe we should raise our voices, ask somebody why
But demonstrations are a drag, besides we're much too high
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

Oh look outside the window, there's a woman being grabbed
They've dragged her to the bushes and now she's being stabbed
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
But Monopoly is so much fun, I'd hate to blow the game
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

It would seem nothing much has changed....

-KC

 

[S-Des]

What anyone would have done?

WASHINGTON - The actress who played Wonder Woman on TV in the 1970s says she didn't do anything extraordinary when she discovered a body this week on the Potomac River in Washington.

Lynda Carter tells The Washington Post she was alone in a boat when she saw the body Wednesday. She says she didn't have a cell phone with her, so she yelled to some fishermen and asked them to call police. Carter waited until rescuers arrived and directed them to the body.

District of Columbia police say the body of 47-year-old Helen Johnstone of Washington was found floating on the river Wednesday. The medical examiner's office has not declared an official cause of death.

Carter says she "did what anybody would have done."

With all due respect to the lovely Ms. Carter, obviously that's not the case. But it does show there are still good people out there (even in Hollywood ).

 

[keeblercrumb]

What anyone would have done?

WASHINGTON - The actress who played Wonder Woman on TV in the 1970s says she didn't do anything extraordinary when she discovered a body this week on the Potomac River in Washington.
ADVERTISEMENT

Lynda Carter tells The Washington Post she was alone in a boat when she saw the body Wednesday. She says she didn't have a cell phone with her, so she yelled to some fishermen and asked them to call police. Carter waited until rescuers arrived and directed them to the body.

District of Columbia police say the body of 47-year-old Helen Johnstone of Washington was found floating on the river Wednesday. The medical examiner's office has not declared an official cause of death.

Carter says she "did what anybody would have done."

With all due respect to the lovely Ms. Carter, obviously that's not the case. But it does show there are still good people out there (even in Hollywood ).

Lynda Carter.....

Tits!
Bazooms!
Bodacious ta-ta's!

Is it just me or does this subject keep up(sic) a lot recently?



-KC

 

[JagFarlane]

What anyone would have done?

WASHINGTON - The actress who played Wonder Woman on TV in the 1970s says she didn't do anything extraordinary when she discovered a body this week on the Potomac River in Washington.

Lynda Carter tells The Washington Post she was alone in a boat when she saw the body Wednesday. She says she didn't have a cell phone with her, so she yelled to some fishermen and asked them to call police. Carter waited until rescuers arrived and directed them to the body.

District of Columbia police say the body of 47-year-old Helen Johnstone of Washington was found floating on the river Wednesday. The medical examiner's office has not declared an official cause of death.

Carter says she "did what anybody would have done."

With all due respect to the lovely Ms. Carter, obviously that's not the case. But it does show there are still good people out there (even in Hollywood ).

A couple of other notes of people in Hollywood that have helped others:

Harrison Ford has his helicopter pilots license and has been known to take adament part of searching for lost hikers using his helicopter.

A few years back [before the TomKat thing], Tom Cruise witnessed someone snatch a womans purse and take off. Cruise sprinted off after him and tackled him, holding the perp until police arrived to arrest him.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I just remembered - it was almost 10 years ago.

I was jogging in the morning on a trail in a city that goes by a river. There weren't many people around, and a couple of older women waved me down and said there was a car in the river. I looked, and sure enough here comes an SUV floating down the slow current, windows up but obviously it would not be floating for long.

With images of a kid or passed-out adult in the vehicle I told them to go up to the road to wave down a car and call 911. Then I kicked off my shoes, dove in and started swimming. It's not a big river so I didn't have to go far. The doors were all locked, but I was able to look in and see that there was no one inside. So I swam back to shore; by that time it was all but sunk, and it went down moments later.

The police dive team eventually got around to going down and pulling it out a couple hours later. They were grateful for my efforts, because they knew they didn't need a hearse standing by. The car had been stolen the night before by joyriders, and allowed to roll into the river at boat ramp just upstream.

I've often wondered what I would have done if there had been a kid or unresponsive adult - go back to shore, find a big rock, swim underwater and try to break a window and extract the person from the bottom? It's probably 15 feet deep, murky and scary. Odds are I would not have been successful even if I had had the guts.

Anyway, I guess I can say that I have acted, although this was a situation with zero uncertainty.

 

[amicus]

There is something insidious about the attention paid this incident, I have tuned out of cable, national network and local news stations perhaps fifty times over the past two days to avoid a rerun of the video of this event.

I sense it is mainly personal guilt, a subjective doubt of one's own sense of life and morality. "What would I do in such a situation?" And the answer frightens most.

On the other hand, and at a deeper level, it meshes well with those who detest human individual freedom, both the theological and the ideological who see man as cursed with original sin and must be controlled and managed lest he run amuck.

Ordinary people do just fine in any circumstance, it is those pointy headed intellectuals we must be concerned with.

Amicus...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Here in Bingville we have a spring that's something like 700 feet deep. It sits on the curve of a major highway. A while back they pulled something like 10 cars out of it, then erected berms around it so people cant drive into it.

They found the other cars after a geezer sank in his Oldsmobile and divers had to fetch him from the bottom.

But it made me think that once a car falls into it, you can kiss it goodbye. Its a coffin.

 

[3113]

The other scenario my sister and I discussed (which I meant to include in my earlier post) dealt with a staged scene of road rage. Two men stop their vehicles on a bridge, blocking traffic (staged after a scene that actually happened) and start beating the hell out of each other. A crowd gathers. People watch.

This is a bit different. This is two alpha males going at it. That shifts the mentality in humans to "pack" mentality. We are taught from childhood *not* to interfere with two alpha males settling their differences in a fight, but rather to watch and see which one wins. And this isn't a bad idea because such males are often young, strong, aggressive, unthinking and will turn that unthinking rage on whoever interferes.

So I don't standing aside and watching this shows stupid, sheep-like behavior at all. Making a ring like that actually keeps the guys from falling into the road and getting hit by a car. (Which is not to say that it isn't also entertaining. People watch and enjoy boxing, wresting, extreme fighting for entertainment value and if you want to condemn people for deciding not to interfere because this is exciting and entertaining, have at it.)

I, myself, had the *real* thing happen in a classroom where I was the teacher. A college aged kid snapped and suddenly got into a fist fight with another student. Desks went flying and they were all over the place (no ring of students to keep them in one place)--it was crazed, furious, temperamental fighting with no thought to what they were smashing into or what their fists were striking. And I, a not very large female with a very soft voice, was NOT about to get between them, putting myself at risk of losing teeth or getting a black eye with the possibility of no results. I ran out and got another teacher, a large male with a loud voice to come in and shout them apart.

I don't believe what I did was sheep like or stupid. Now, if the one had been beating up on the other and the other was on the floor getting brutalized, then I might have tried something else. But two guys really going at it? I've seen it and getting between them ain't the wisest or easiest idea.

 

[S-Des]

There is something insidious about the attention paid this incident, I have tuned out of cable, national network and local news stations perhaps fifty times over the past two days to avoid a rerun of the video of this event.

You are missing the key (and most obvious) element.....Good video. They not only have video of someone getting hit, tossed into the air, then landing horribly....they have the cars racing away and turning down a side street. Then for good measure they have dozens of cars and hundreds of pedestrians passing by as the man lays there helplessly. All of this with a very clear camera, which makes it watchable on tv. That makes this thing a gold mine to the 3 cable news networks who are all looking for a ratings edge. In the end, that is always the most important thing to them.

How many times did we see the video of the girls beating up the other girl in Florida?