American Beauty

[SnoopDog]

First I planned on watching 'Independence Day' but I wasn't really in the mood. So at least I chose something with 'America' in the title. (American Psycho was not an option though, lol)

Anyways, this is easily one of my most favoruite movies with my single most favourite actor Spacey.

But except the brilliant movie I noticed something else. This might easily be one of the movies with the BEST FREAKING DIALOGUE.

So witty, so funny, so moving. You could close your eyes the entire film and still get a lot out of it. Superb.

Comments?

Other good films with excellent dialogue?

Snoopy

 

[CharleyH]

First I planned on watching 'Independence Day' but I wasn't really in the mood. So at least I chose something with 'America' in the title. (American Psycho was not an option though, lol)

Anyways, this is easily one of my most favoruite movies with my single most favourite actor Spacey.

But except the brilliant movie I noticed something else. This might easily be one of the movies with the BEST FREAKING DIALOGUE.

So witty, so funny, so moving. You could close your eyes the entire film and still get a lot out of it. Superb.

Comments?

Other good films with excellent dialogue?

Snoopy

My Dinner with Andre.

BY FAR the best.

 

[Pure]

I think American Beauty is splendid, but it's too bad Hollywood got priggish, and didn't let him 'do' her.

A film with great dialogue is Fargo, and a couple other Coen bros like "Blood Simple."

 

[davidwatts]

I think American Beauty is splendid, but it's too bad Hollywood got priggish, and didn't let him 'do' her.

A film with great dialogue is Fargo, and a couple other Coen bros like "Blood Simple."

I like those as long as we throw in Barton Fink as the other.

Chinatown
Taxi Driver
All the Presidents Men
Patton
Prisoner of Second Avenue
Citiizen Kane

I don't know the measure of greatness, but I can and do watch those with my eyes closed sometimes.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

First I planned on watching 'Independence Day' but I wasn't really in the mood. So at least I chose something with 'America' in the title. (American Psycho was not an option though, lol)

Anyways, this is easily one of my most favoruite movies with my single most favourite actor Spacey.

But except the brilliant movie I noticed something else. This might easily be one of the movies with the BEST FREAKING DIALOGUE.

So witty, so funny, so moving. You could close your eyes the entire film and still get a lot out of it. Superb.

Comments?

Other good films with excellent dialogue?

Snoopy

True.

The dialogue was good.

"This is me masturbating in the shower. This is the highlight of my day."

Okay, maybe not perfect, but....

And I'm personally glad it didn't let him do her. It would have merely changed the point of the entire movie being made....



Q_C

 

[Liar]

Clerks.

90 minutes of semi stoned top quality banter. In black and white.

 

[Op_Cit]

You can't not include a movie with the dialog like this:

"I don't believe in it anyway."

"What?"

"England."

"Just a conspiracy of cartographers then?"

-Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

But I can't decide if I like the spoken or the unspoken dialog more in this movie.

 

[Dar~]

For the most part, I didn't like American Beauty. I put it on level with The Graduate in that it was beyond my comprehension what all the fuss was about.

I love some of the dialog in Alex and Emma. Also Chasing Amy had some good dialog. So I Married an Axe Murderer has fabulous dialog. I am sorry but I don't get the thrill involved with the whole American Beauty crowd.

 

[shereads]

Will someone please pass me the fucking asparagus?





Snoop, American Beauty is my favorite movie of all time. I won't say it saved my life (antidepressants helped there) but it taught me some things that made it possible to stop dreading the future and live what life gives me. I was in desperate straits the year American Beauty was released, and a friend talked me into seeing it. I was so down I had no interest in entertainment; I had to be half-dragged.

I was stunned, and I had no idea why. I went back night after night, knowing there was something compelling me to go, and not having a clue why. When it finally clicked, I had a sense of peace for the first time in months - maybe years. I'm not able to explain what I found, except to say that used to live in fear of failure, and now I believe that the only failure that matters is the failure to know what we have - when we have it.

Sometimes I need to be reminded. Thank you for that. I think I'll watch The Paper Bag Scene tomorrow night.



Edited to add: I also learned that in a pinch, it's possible to wear a fast-food uniform with dignity, just as it is possible to lose all dignity while wearing a business suit and occupying an executive office.

This is not something I was ready to understand during the four weeks I lasted at Hardees when I was seventeen. Brown and orange polyester doubleknit will always be a challenge, but if Kevin Spacy can do it so can I.

 

[shereads]

I like those as long as we throw in Barton Fink as the other.

"I'll show you the life of the mind."

Yeesh! Loved Barton Fink. Had bad dreams about it, but loved it.

 

[shereads]

I think American Beauty is splendid, but it's too bad Hollywood got priggish, and didn't let him 'do' her.

He didn't "do" her because he had finally grown up, and was able to see her through a father's eyes. He understood that the Lolita act was just an act; the act of a fatherless kid.

It was interesting, seeing it in the theater as many times as I did, to learn what audience reactions would follow which scenes. There is a moment when 90 percent of the theater audience knows they're not watching a comedy anymore (the boy leaving home in the rain), and there are always a few boys in the back of the theater who are a beat behind - the ones who blurt out a laugh at the line, "Wear a raincoat," and then sheepishly swallow the laugh when they realize that the rest of the audience has abandoned them. In about half the showings I attended, there was at least one teenaged boy who blurted out something along the lines of "Fuck her anyway!"

Please tell me that wasn't you.

 

[mrmgp]

Love this movie. Especially at the end when it looks like he's finally got his head on straight, and feels genuine happiness for the first time in years, then. . .

 

[shereads]

Love this movie. Especially at the end when it looks like he's finally got his head on straight, and feels genuine happiness for the first time in years, then. . .

Not a bad end for him, since he has a newly broadened perspective - but the repercussions for his daughter and her boyfriend are disturbing. (Hint: remember the video that opens the film, and that he turns off the camera before it's revealed to be a joke.)

 

[SnoopDog]

Love this movie. Especially at the end when it looks like he's finally got his head on straight, and feels genuine happiness for the first time in years, then. . .

The ending - like everything else in this movie - is just perfect.
''She's in love" - "Really? Good for her. ... Good for her"

Will someone please pass me the fucking asparagus?





Snoop, American Beauty is my favorite movie of all time. I won't say it saved my life (antidepressants helped there) but it taught me some things that made it possible to stop dreading the future and live what life gives me. I was in desperate straits the year American Beauty was released, and a friend talked me into seeing it. I was so down I had no interest in entertainment; I had to be half-dragged.

I was stunned, and I had no idea why. I went back night after night, knowing there was something compelling me to go, and not having a clue why. When it finally clicked, I had a sense of peace for the first time in months - maybe years. I'm not able to explain what I found, except to say that used to live in fear of failure, and now I believe that the only failure that matters is the failure to know what we have - when we have it.

Sometimes I need to be reminded. Thank you for that. I think I'll watch The Paper Bag Scene tomorrow night.



Edited to add: I also learned that in a pinch, it's possible to wear a fast-food uniform with dignity, just as it is possible to lose all dignity while wearing a business suit and occupying an executive office.

This is not something I was ready to understand during the four weeks I lasted at Hardees when I was seventeen. Brown and orange polyester doubleknit will always be a challenge, but if Kevin Spacy can do it so can I.

Oh I'm so happy for you that this movie helped. See people, this is why I love movies so much. Films CAN do things like that. I had the exact same thing with American Beauty and a couple of other movies. It's just great.

"Sometimes there's so much beuty in the world, I feel like I can't take it."

Snoopy

 

[SnoopDog]

Not a bad end for him, since he has a newly broadened perspective - but the repercussions for his daughter and her boyfriend are disturbing. (Hint: remember the video that opens the film, and that he turns off the camera before it's revealed to be a joke.)

The original idea was for the film to open with a scene in a corutroom where Janey and Franky were to be sentenced for the killing of Lester.

Can't remember the reason why they dropped it though.

Snoopy

 

[shereads]

The original idea was for the film to open with a scene in a corutroom where Janey and Franky were to be sentenced for the killing of Lester.

Can't remember the reason why they dropped it though.

Snoopy

It would have taken over the movie, I think, by turning it into a murder mystery and not a lesson about living.





"For fourteen years I've been a whore to the advertising industry. To save myself now, I'd have to start fire-bombing."

You said it, Lester.

 

[SnoopDog]

It would have taken over the movie, I think, by turning it into a murder mystery and not a lesson about living.





"For fourteen years I've been a whore to the advertising industry. To save myself now, I'd have to start fire-bombing."

You said it, Lester.

OMG that scene is so awesome.

"My job consists of basically masking my contempt for the assholes in charge, and, at least once a day, retiring to the men's room so I can jerk off while I fantasize about a life that doesn't so closely resemble Hell." Well, you have absolutely no interest in saving yourself. "




Snoopy

 

[shereads]

OMG that scene is so awesome.


Snoopy

I know! I was inspired to do some firebombing, and I felt better immediately.

 

[Boota]

American Beauty is one of my all-time favorites. Not only for the dialogue, but for the clever way the story is put together. Most movies dealing with this subject, like sher said, would have started where American Beauty ends. I'm a big fan of Kevin Spacey as well. Another movie with great dialogue is Life As A House. I was watching that one saying, "Damn! I wish I'd written this!"

I like movies where the dialogue comes off as real. I like it when someone seemingly stumbles on a line and they leave it in. People stumble on what they're trying to say all the time. I write dialogue like that, because that's what I hear when I talk to people. They rarely use perfect grammar, they stumble over words or unnecessarily repeat them. They say "uh..." and "um..." a lot. Maybe it isn't the right way to do things, but it seems natural to me. If you take those imperfections out it sounds like the dialogue is just too slick to be a natural conversation, and that is what most movies do, even with great lines.

 

[SnoopDog]

American Beauty is one of my all-time favorites. Not only for the dialogue, but for the clever way the story is put together. Most movies dealing with this subject, like sher said, would have started where American Beauty ends. I'm a big fan of Kevin Spacey as well. Another movie with great dialogue is Life As A House. I was watching that one saying, "Damn! I wish I'd written this!"

I like movies where the dialogue comes off as real. I like it when someone seemingly stumbles on a line and they leave it in. People stumble on what they're trying to say all the time. I write dialogue like that, because that's what I hear when I talk to people. They rarely use perfect grammar, they stumble over words or unnecessarily repeat them. They say "uh..." and "um..." a lot. Maybe it isn't the right way to do things, but it seems natural to me. If you take those imperfections out it sounds like the dialogue is just too slick to be a natural conversation, and that is what most movies do, even with great lines.

I think you're right. The dialogue has to come off as real. However, most of the time superb dialogue that comes off as real is dialogue that was extra-carefully written and placed.
A very good example for superb dialogue in my opinion is 'A Few Good Men'. You immediately notice that it was written as a play. As with all movies that are initially plays (wasn't American Beauty supposed to be a screenplay for a play???) the dialogue is often great.

Snoopy

 

[namron711]

!!!

Love your av, as I am a Snoophead.

I love American Beauty. Many people I know don't like it, because they don't get it, because it makes you think. Many people don't want to go see a movie that taxes the brain.

Best line or scene from AB is the 'Asparagus Scene". "Would someone please pass the fucking asparagus".

I don't necessarily subscribe to buying movies like music. With most movies, once I've seen it, I don't really care to see it again. Too many other movies out there to see yet. However there are a select group of movies that I would purchase, And AB would be one of them.

I can never recall things under pressure, but right off the top of my head, I would suggest 'Notting Hill' as a good dialogue flick. Most people just write it off as a 'chick flick'. (Actually I dig a lot of 'chick flicks'.) It does a good job of portraying a real life predicament: How do celebrities date? What if a non-celebrity and a celebrity fell for each other?

 

[Pure]

Originally Posted by Pure
I think American Beauty is splendid, but it's too bad Hollywood got priggish, and didn't let him 'do' her.


He didn't "do" her because he had finally grown up, and was able to see her through a father's eyes. He understood that the Lolita act was just an act; the act of a fatherless kid.

It's not quite accurate of me to suggest that the Hollywood studio censored or altered Mr. Ball's script. He, on his own, dropped out the sex, from the early version. It is an original screen play, snoop. (The first draft does center on the trial of the daughter.)

I guess it depends on how much 'uplift' you want to see in this movie, Sher. I think it's pretty black, and the most redeeming is the development of the daughter and boyfriend next door. I see no reason to believe in 'moral evolution' of Lester, or his wife, or most any other characters. I see no reason to think Lester exercizes compassionate, psychological insight into the motives of a 'fatherless kid', who is not exactly a 'kid.' (17-18). [[added: except see next posting]] It is a nice twist that all her talk of sucking dick etc. is a big act; like much teen sex bragging. She does say she still 'wants to', but he's put off; that how it ends in the final shooting drafts. (Incidentally L is not much of a father to Jane, nor does the movie show him becoming one.)

I've read Ball's discussion of the floating bag scene, at it is marvelous, and comes from real experience. Yes it has beauty. As do the oddest or most mundane events in life. In that sense I see how the film may have inspired you. With the exceptions noted, I don't see much 'beauty' in any character, nor any depth.
---

PS It's worth mentioning that the film consciously (somewhat) parallels the book "Lolita," where a dark look at life precisely includes the objectionable sex. Angela, the cheerleader, has last name "Hayes," and Lo' has last name "Haze."

 

[Pure]

to sher

Sher: a propos of some of your points, supporting some of your interpretation

http://www.insidefilm.com/alan_ball.html

[interview with Allan Ball, writer of the screenplay]

QUESTION:
Before you sent it out to your agent, did you show it to a lot of your friends and peers?

ALAN:
I showed it to two friends.

In my first draft, Lester sleeps with Angela, but I never intended it to be like he goes, "Oh, my God, I'm going to score with a teenage girl." It goes up to the same point it is in the movie and then once she reveals that she's a virgin, he hesitates, she says, "No, no. I want to do this." And then it becomes about they drop their masks and then it becomes about making love, but to capture that would have been so subtle and so elusive, because I don't think anybody would have seen beyond the actual sex.

And I struggled with that because I got that note from the studio and I thought, oh, they just want to make it "nicer." Then I realized, no, no, no. He becomes a father to her that he can't be with his own daughter, and then I was able to realize that it's a much better choice anyway.

But in my very first draft that happened, and both my friends said, "You might want to consider having him not sleep with her." And I was still in my bitter angry, "I've just enjoyed three years of Cybill Shepherd" state of mind. So I said, "No. No. He has to. You're a puritan. You're a stinking puritan. If you were European, this wouldn't matter." And I was wrong, it was a really wrong choice.
------

various drafts at
http://www.books-on-line.com/bol/BookDisplay.cfm?BookNum=19490


final screenplay at
http://www.allmoviescripts.com/scripts/5510953963f572c000ea91.PDF
-----

[the bag scene]

http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2000/03/25/ball/print.html

[review and comments by Russ Spencer]

Ball was asked about the plastic bag scene, but not by one of the audience members. It was illuminating, actually, that the question came from another writer, David O. Russell, who wrote another of 1999's most innovative films, "Three Kings." Russell leaned forward into the mike, looked Ball right in the eye, and asked, as if he were asking a telepath how he had managed to bend a spoon, "How did you come up with the plastic bag scene?"

For those who have not seen the film, the scene is simple -- a white plastic bag is caught in the wind in front of the kind of graffittied metal doors that come down at night in front of liquor stores in tough neighborhoods. The scene is shot in slow motion. The bag goes up and down and left and right and around and around. It could be a bird, or a butterfly, or a cloud. But it's not. It's a piece of litter on a dirty street. And as such it's a metaphor that even in the toughest place, and perhaps most often in tough places, beauty happens.

Ball answered the question directly, with no emotion. He said that he wanted a scene of grace to balance out the heaviness of the other scenes, to provide a quiet moment. "I tried to think of the most beautiful thing I had ever seen," he said.

For him, it wasn't some schmaltzy sunset in Hawaii. He remembered walking past the World Trade Center at a time in his life when he was working as the art director at a magazine, and writing plays at night for a theater company that was disintegrating. Most of the people in the theater company were hitting their mid-30s and moving on. He felt a little stuck. A plastic bag was caught on the wind and it seemed to float around him, as if it were a specter, as if it were alive and talking to him. There was something so profound in the simple beauty of the moment, he said, that it brought him to tears.

I called Ball after the script seminar to talk to him in more detail about the plastic bag moment. "It was in the early '90s, towards the end of winter, the beginning of spring," he said. "It was kind of cold and overcast but it wasn't raining. It was a Sunday. So the whole financial district was deserted. But it was kind of one of those days that after months of it being freezing, it was warm enough to walk.

And so I just decided to walk from midtown down to the World Trade Center to catch the train back to Brooklyn. I was in front of the World Trade Center, and I noticed this plastic bag in the wind, this white plastic bag. And it circled me, and it literally circled me, like, 10 or 15 times. And after about the third or fourth time I felt very, um, I started to feel weird. And then, I don't know, there was something striking about the experience, and I really did feel like I was in the presence of something."

 

[Guest]

 

[davidwatts]

oops

Can't believe I left Glengarry GlenRoss off my original list. I usually cringe when I see Alec Baldwin but even he couldn't screw up that opening diatribe.