America the Beautiful...

[amicus]

America the Beautiful...



I wouldn't mind so much, and yes, I make this personal, if it were 'Foreign' enemies only that continually attacked the country I love, but it is 'Domestic', enemies, too; and that troubles me deeply.

It is an open secret that Americans are mixed breeds at best, coming, early on, from all parts of the inhabited world under many guises.

We like to believe that we brought the 'best' of the 'old world', with us and left the worst behind in Europe and Asia. That's not altogether true of course, things seldom are.

We had to fight the British for Independence and the German's too, they were called, 'Hessians' then, hired mercenaries. Then there was the French and Indian War and the French scattered to the north and the Indians went west.

The Spanish held Florida and the Southwest, so we fought for and won that too.

America gave religious freedom to people who had none, but not in a perfect manner, as things seldom are. We also freed the slaves and women too, though many think not in a timely manner.

The Brits came back and burned the White House and the Arabs knocked down some buildings in New York City and the Pentagon; the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and took Singapore away from the Brits, they were pissed as the bombs rained down on Piccadilly Square.

Then it was the Russians turn, in surrogate wars in Korea and Vietnam and almost in Egypt, over the Canal.

'Americans' became a pejorative around the world; we had so much, they had so little.

Even so, through all this, America the Beautiful stood tall and strong.

There have always been nay-sayers since Hamilton and the Federalists, those who wanted and still want government to play a larger, more, 'Kingly' role in the private lives of individuals.

The, 'anti-industrial left', has always been against progress, which they equate with pollution, over population, exploitation; who knows what they really want as an end result. They thought they got their wish in 1917, but were wrong, dead wrong.

It ofttimes took 'nudging', more than a little, in terms of the emancipation of women and civil rights across the board, but still that has not satisfied those who wish...well...wish what?

The African slaves and the conquered Native Americans have sought compensation from the present for the past. We could all claim that at one time or another in our ancestral lines, could we not?

The last half of the 20th century saw changes un-imagined except in the minds of science fiction writers, but here we are, somewhat shaken to find ourselves in the 21st century, full of doubt.

Should America indiscriminately kill thousands of innocents in an attack on Tehran or Damascus, well, you already know the American's would never do such things, without a declared intent as in Baghdad or Kabul.

They be-headed our soldiers in Mogadishu and the crowds cheered, not just there, but everywhere. They tortured captured combatants in Iraq during Desert Storm, Coalition troops, not just Americans.

Armed, paid mercenaries take American and Coalition lives and threaten more, but the blame is on America for interrogation of these sub human killers of women and children.

"You earn your own way in this world, son, we don't take charity." Many a father told many a son back then. Things have changed.

Now those sons and daughters expect life on a silver platter and whine when it is not immediate gratification.

I wrote a book, my first, many years ago: "My Country how I love thee, for thy Past." is a line on the second page.

"Give me Liberty or give me death!" said an American even before there was an America. Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775. http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html

Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty.

Freedom is not free nor can it ever be.

America the land of the free, the home of the brave, has begun a predictable slide into a loss of freedom and liberty that carries with it a loss of human dignity that few care to imagine.

Words such as the above are relegated to the Religious Right, or the more popular and less defined, 'Neo-Cons', and disregarded and disdained as 'crackpot' and worse.

Yet, at one time, they were spoken and believed by Patriots, in the Nation's Capitol, who fought to claim and then protect the self evident truths they discovered and wrote of.

"We are all Socialists Now"; we enter a new era in human history, which, if not reversed, will demonstrate just how difficult freedom is to gain, once lost.
I have read through the accounts of the debates and discussions held in the decades prior to 1776; there was as much divergent opinion then as there is now, even here.

Those basic principles have not changed. The slogans then, that we remember, that I quoted, are as true now, as they were then.

Does one hope for another bloody revolution? Of course not, nor did they, but they were prepared.

So too, should you be.

Amicus...

 

[DeeZire]

Listen... Can you hear it? It's the sound of one hand clapping.

 

[amicus]

Would that be the Internationale I hear faintly in the distance or just a worm farting?

 

[oggbashan]

Two quotations

Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. - Edith Cavell 1915 before her execution.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. - Dr Johnson

Og

 

[DesertPirate]

Wondering if anyone knows the oldest Capitol on the continent in continuous service?

 

[Weird Harold]

Wondering if anyone knows the oldest Capitol on the continent in continuous service?

Mexico City?

 

[DesertPirate]

Mexico City?

Santa Fe, 1575

 

[redpaint]

I guess I am that one hand. I served this country and would do so again. Yes I have pride in this country. No I do not hide my eyes to the wrongs we have done, but then there is not a country in the world that has not comitted such wrongs at one time or other. I would just like to know when being Patriotic of your country became such a bad thing?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

REDPAINT

There's nothing wrong with patriotism.

Yesterday I read about a submarine skipper who went down with his boat (after the crew escaped) because he knew too much about Japanese codes. He simply said: I know too much and cant go with you. And he drowned. He's no scoundrel in my opinion.

My old man enlisted when he was 13, was a combat veteran of the South Pacific, and was 15 years old when the war ended. Of course, he was a big boy. My brother was 6-5 when he was 13.

OGGs idea of the best citizen is someone with their pants down to their ankles, and on their knees (but not to pray...cant have THAT).

 

[DeeZire]

I would just like to know when being Patriotic of your country became such a bad thing?

"Patriotism" became a bad thing when it was used as an excuse to divide our country into red states and blue states. It became the antithesis of patriotism in the context of the old "united we stand, divided we fall" cliche. Patriotism became a bad thing when it cowed our media into ignoring the truth.

If you were to google "patriotism" and "bad thing" (or perhaps add "hitler") I'm sure you would find people much more eloquent than me to fill you in.

(Congratulations on serving your country RP. I hope you didn't have to sacrifice your integrity to do so.)

 

[oggbashan]

I guess I am that one hand. I served this country and would do so again. Yes I have pride in this country. No I do not hide my eyes to the wrongs we have done, but then there is not a country in the world that has not comitted such wrongs at one time or other. I would just like to know when being Patriotic of your country became such a bad thing?

I was responding to Amicus post. He doesn't seem to believe that America could ever do or have done anything wrong (and mentions Native Americans in his post!).

Being patriotic without judgement is almost always bad. The Japanese in WWII were fiercely patriotic. The Germans in WWI and WWII were fiercely patriotic. Both countries had their patriotism abused by their leaders. Unthinking patriotism leads to the Nuremburg trials - "I was only doing my duty."

Every person in the armed services of their country, since Nuremburg, cannot accept an unlawful order to do something that, for example, breaches the Geneva convention. Every person in the armed services of their country is not just a unthinking unit - they are also a representative of their country. In Europe the doughboys of WWI and the GIs of WWII were true representatives of the US. They fought hard but fairly. The few exceptions were seen as exceptional and tried by US military tribunals. Those troops showed occupied Europe that there was a better way to live.

I am patriotic with my eyes open. I am well aware of my country's history and there are shameful things in our past. There are still shameful things now - like denying Gurkhas who have fought and sometimes died for us the right to a decent pension and the right to live here.

Could you be a patriotic Zimbabwean under Robert Mugabe? Or would your patriotism for Zimbabwe make you seek change to make a better country from the mess Mugabe has made? A true patriot of Zimbabwe would try to serve the starving and dying people, not be an agent of repression for a corrupt regime.

Patriotism is indeed not enough. Mugabe is an example of patriotism being the last refuge of a scoundrel.

There are many examples of modern US patriots - the US officer who replied "Nuts!" when asked to surrender Bastogne when faced by overwhelming force; Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on a bus and the occupants of the Hanoi Hilton who refused to give up hope.

There are others in recent US history who have appealed to patriotism with their tongue in their lying cheek. I won't name them. We in the UK have enough examples of our own.

When patriotism becomes "My country right or wrong" then it leads to national support given to Hitler, to Stalin, to Robert Mugabe.

The US is a democracy. The UK is a democracy. Europe is made up of democracies. When we, together, stand against abuse and exploitation of peoples then we have gone beyond narrow patriotism into support of humanity itself.

Og

 

[amicus]

Geez, Ogg, thas almost as long as mine, in opposition of course, happy to have inspired you to that length.

On the other hand...

Patriotism has gotten a bad name from the left, mainly because they have nothing to believe in for one thing. Second thing is, those astute with knowledge and language, not unlike yourself, Oggbashan, seem to always have a flaw in their conceptual awareness of those around them.

Most people require something to believe in, God, Country, Honor, Dignity and more. They seldom understand the scriptures, the witch doctor stands before them and lays it out and takes his tithe.

Most people do not truly understand the magnificent achievements of America and how they came about.

Is faith and loyalty a dangerous thing, indeed it is, so is love and trust, you have to lay your soul bare and commit to that which you believe in.

There seems to be a paucity of committment on all fronts today, be it personal relationships or loyalty to God and Nation, perhaps just a sign of the times, I am not wise enough to know.

I think when you destroy 'faith and belief' in a people, and criticize Patriotism, loyality to ideas and ideals, that you destroy an important part of the human psyche, in that each needs something they believe to be true to believe in.

I was fortunate in the crap shoot that is genetic inheritance, I was given a brain and the ability to communicate, however badly you may judge that ability; and I know the basic virtues and values of existence and they are spelled out in our founding documents and are well worth believing in and pledging alliegiance to.

I for one, am more than proud to be an American Patriot.

And if you folks do manage to weaken or even destroy it with your creeping socialism, America and our ideals will rise again.

Amicus...

 

[oggbashan]

As usual, Amicus, you take your arguments far further than a response to what was said. Sometimes I doubt that you even read what is written in reponse to your diatribes.

Loyalty, Faith, Belief in God, Trust, Honour, Dignity? When did I question those?

My original statement was a quote from Edith Cavell - Patriotism is not enough - and a quote from Dr Johnson that - Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Misplaced patriotism starts and prolongs wars. Misplaced patriotism divides people even within their own country. Your country and mine have had Civil Wars with both sides claiming to be the only true patriots.

You can be fiercely committed to the well-being of your country and your people without proclaiming "I am a patriot, there is only one true patriotism and anyone who disagrees with me is unpatriotic." That way lies "The end justifies the means"; Termination with extreme prejudice; Extraordinary Rendition; Gitmo; restricting your citizens' freedoms in the name of national security; and ultimately the rise of people such as Hitler and Mugabe who lead their countries to destruction.

Excessive patriotism can also lead to xenophobia, racism and an inability to recognise that there can be differences between the policies of the current (or past) administration and what is in the best interests of your country.

Og

 

[DeeZire]

Patriotism has gotten a bad name from the left, mainly because they have nothing to believe in for one thing. ...

...I know the basic virtues and values of existence and they are spelled out in our founding documents and are well worth believing in and pledging alliegiance to

Excuse me Ami, but liberals also believe in the basic virtues and values of existence that are spelled out in our founding documents - "all men are created equal" being one of them. If only the rich can afford to go to school, as you would have it in your ideal world, equality sort of goes out the window, don't you think? This is but one example of the double standard you apply to your brand of "patriotism". In fact, to call your ideology "patriotic" is a gross misuse of the word.

You are an embarrassment to the true patriots who died to give you the right to speak freely, spouting your discriminatory ideology that mocks the very freedom you claim to support.

 

[Weird Harold]

Santa Fe, 1575

Mexico City was a Capitol city before Columbus arrived, although the name has changed along the way, the city is diretly evolved from the Aztec city (tenochtitlan?) and has been the Capitol of something the whole time.

 

[oggbashan]

Excuse me Ami, but liberals also believe in the basic virtues and values of existence that are spelled out in our founding documents - "all men are created equal" being one of them. If only the rich can afford to go to school, as you would have it in your ideal world, equality sort of goes out the window, don't you think? This is but one example of the double standard you apply to your brand of "patriotism". In fact, to call your ideology "patriotic" is a gross misuse of the word.

You are an embarrassment to the true patriots who died to give you the right to speak freely, spouting your discriminatory ideology that mocks the very freedom you claim to support.

Thank you.

I should have quoted some UK examples of patriotic nonsense:

The campaign in the 1930s against American cars which were better made, more reliable and longer lasting - because they weren't British. The UK government protected the British car industry by biased taxation and damaged the British industry which should have been learning from the American example. The British motorcycle industry of the 1960s was still producing travelling oil leaks when it should have modernised but exhorted the public to "Buy British" when imported motorcycles were much better (and cheaper).

The Suez campaign to protect the British Empire that no longer existed.

Some of our current fringe political parties that are xenophobic and racist but ever-so patriotic, waving the Union Jack and the Cross of St George to prove how patriotic they are.

The current campaign to stop foreign workers depriving British workers of jobs in industries where far more British workers in those industries are employed abroad than foreign workers are employed in the UK. It also has the effect of stopping foreign workers taking low-paid jobs such as care assistants that British workers won't consider.

Og

 

[amicus]

I have always had high expectations awaiting your reply or comment on ideas I have expressed and I am usually disappointed, as I am again this time.

Those who want to understand and are willing to make even a small effort, usually see right off the crux of a discussion and can contribute to it. You wish only to harp on a thesis, that "Patriotism' can be a bad thing. I acknowledged that before, you must have missed it.

Everything valuable in life requires a risk of one sort or another.

[I

]"...That way lies "The end justifies the means"; Termination with extreme prejudice; Extraordinary Rendition; Gitmo; restricting your citizens' freedoms in the name of national security; and ultimately the rise of people such as Hitler and Mugabe who lead their countries to destruction..."[/

I]

It remains a question to many, obviously, since these events transpired, authorized by the Government, as to just what measures can be used to obtain information from enemy combatants and under what circumstances.

The free world, those adhering to the niceties of war, the Geneva Conventions, have always been at a disadvantage wherein we are limited, and properly so, in just how severe methods of interrogation can go.

War is a terrible thing and I do not say that from the point of view as a mere observer and further, I write about it and what it does to society and how it affects the individual person.

It is inhumane to starve people to death, soldiers or not, yet in conflict, when taking prisoners and your own army has insufficient food for themselves, how do you morally justify starving the captured enemy or do you just execute them as practicality dictates you cannot just set them free.

When you have a prisoner and you know and see in his eyes the continued intent to kill you, when do you set them free if ever?

A very long time ago I rode a motorcycle to the Border of East Germany and stared into the steel blue eyes of a Russian boy with a rifle pointed at me, There was a guard tower with a machine gun that I watched track me up to the check point. What I saw in that soldiers eyes was that he would take my life without a thought.

It is a fine effete mentality that suggests our enemies are just misguided minions who were probably badly potty trained and we should coddle them.

You pay little heed to the declared Jihad, all out war, against your country and mine by Islamic Terrorists, I do, I believe them. I think they mean what they say, they will continue to hit soft targets of highly populated civilian gatherings, like your Subway stations, until we/you, cave in and give them a free hand.

My sense of morality begins, as it does for most, I suspect, with my own existence. If you threaten my existence in an overt way, if I value my life and those who depend on me, I take action with 'extreme prejudice', to defend myself and if this requires a pro active move to take them out, I can do that too.

I extend that to those who make the decisions concerning the security of my country and those who defend it. I suggest that the 'rules of engagement' imposed by the US military and the political treatises that support it are far too lenient and tolerant of the evil Islamic terrorism represents.

I suspect that one day it will change, that the US will no longer tolerate the safe haven provided by adjacent nations in the middle east and the threat of retaliation for those who succor terrorists will become real.

I would and advocate others, to vow to use any means necessary to protect those things we love and value.

You may not. Thas up to you.

Amicus....

 

[gauchecritic]

As Rob is wont to opine: That which you fear...

 

[amicus]

Ah, gauche, so very short....there was a generation of writers, among them Hemingway, who fictionally chronicled war and the horror it contains and inflicts up those swept up.

I am not reluctant to say that Americans lack the patriotism, the faith and belief, and the understanding that what we have achieved is worth fighting for and dying for, if necessary.

We are absent the philosophical leadership that would engender such reverence for those universal ideals that honor men.

Amicus...

 

[Liar]

Fuck reverence. Patriotism is not a feeling. Patriotism is to take responsibility and take action. To right what you believe is wrong. Wrong against your country as well as wrong with your country.

You mentioned internal and external threats, ami. And paint them as nemesises. What if the wrong is inherited? What if the wrong is embedded in our culture? Is it unpatriotic or patriotic to look at the things we have achieved, and ask if they are actually worth fighting for? Or worth fighting against?

This whole reverance thing just muddies the waters. It smells of religion.

 

[DesertPirate]

I guess I am that one hand. I served this country and would do so again. Yes I have pride in this country. No I do not hide my eyes to the wrongs we have done, but then there is not a country in the world that has not comitted such wrongs at one time or other. I would just like to know when being Patriotic of your country became such a bad thing?

Me too, as for serving? Been there, done that!

 

[DesertPirate]

Mexico City was a Capitol city before Columbus arrived, although the name has changed along the way, the city is diretly evolved from the Aztec city (tenochtitlan?) and has been the Capitol of something the whole time.

Guess I should have said North America. My Bad

You are correct.

 

[amicus]

Fuck reverence. Patriotism is not a feeling. Patriotism is to take responsibility and take action. To right what you believe is wrong. Wrong against your country as well as wrong with your country.

You mentioned internal and external threats, ami. And paint them as nemesises. What if the wrong is inherited? What if the wrong is embedded in our culture? Is it unpatriotic or patriotic to look at the things we have achieved, and ask if they are actually worth fighting for? Or worth fighting against?

This whole reverance thing just muddies the waters. It smells of religion.[/

QUOTE]

~~~

"Fuck reverence?" Hmmm...

I am oft criticized as not reading posts I respond, or if read, not understand; both are incorrect.

I do read and it is all too easy to understand what is being said and what is between the lines; implied.

You speak for yourself, as do I, but a fortunate experience of dealing with the public at large made it obvious that most people do not comprehend the concepts behind Patriotism and can be guided to an understanding by those who would take the time to explain.

It isn't just the half the population on the Bell Curve, it is, in addition, another half of those left who are so focused on the essential choices of their lives that they have no time to peruse History or Philosophy, most of the Liberal Arts content of the old Universal education that no longer exists.

It is fine with the left that most cannot define that nature of most of the values the left holds so dear; they simply, believe, have faith, are 'reverent' to the righteousness of the left, because, like the current resident of the White House, are glib with words.

But when opposing views are held as faith, belief, and reverence, you turn foul mouthed and curse them as ignorant.

They are not. They have a value lacked by the elite left, several values in fact, among them, common sense, loyalty, faith and yes, Patriotism. They 'know' right from wrong, good from bad and they feel the values, indeed, live the values I speak of, individual honor, integrity and consistency.

Your second anti thesis is a complicated one that I have addressed before. One of the initial and ongoing struggle, even in the writing of our documents, of those who wanted less and those who wanted more, restrictions on the individual.

So yes, the seeds of totalitarianism, dictatorial rule, is inherited and embedded in our society, as it is with all, part and parcel of being human, the choices between good and evil, right and wrong.

The implied, unspoken portion of your post is that man can neither know nor choose between the extremes of right and wrong, good and evil. Further, you insult the morality of the common man by insisting he follow your leadership on the basis of faith, the tenets of social altruism and sacrifice.

None of us will be around a few centuries ahead when historians and philosophers, with perfect hindsight, view our era of transition from the loss of faith to the emergence of objective, rational values.

It is a work in progressive, oh gauche one, we add or detract from that quest as we each may.

Amicus...

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry, Amicus, but I consider you among America's domestic enemies (and I'm not being cute here--I'm being very, very serious). For thirty years, I had to protect Americans--even those with reactionary, divisive, disgusting (often, it seems, just to yank people's chains) views as those you espouse here--from external enemies. But in that time, I developed the knowledge that ignoramuses like you (who brought us the eight years of the Bush administration among other inanities) were really no better than America's external enemies--worse, in fact. The rot is from within--which I find even more evil than the external enemy who at least is operating from a different perspective's interests.

To have you waving a flag on a thread like this just disgusts me.

 

[oggbashan]

...You pay little heed to the declared Jihad, all out war, against your country and mine by Islamic Terrorists, I do, I believe them. I think they mean what they say, they will continue to hit soft targets of highly populated civilian gatherings, like your Subway stations, until we/you, cave in and give them a free hand.

...I would and advocate others, to vow to use any means necessary to protect those things we love and value.

You may not. Thas up to you.

Amicus....

The IRA and its offshoots were far more deadly a threat in the UK than the jihadists have been. We never contemplated caving in to the IRA even while we noted with regret that much of their funds were provided by US citizens.

The funding of the IRA by misguided US "Irish Patriots" didn't make us reconsider out status as an ally of the US.

The jihadists don't make us reconsider our engagement with the countries of the Middle East and Asia. The jihadists are a minority in their communities just as the IRA were in theirs.

You "vow to use any means necessary to protect those things we love and value". That confirms what I have always thought about you. You have no morality, no scruples, no honour. You accept that any criminal activity is justified by the ends achieved. You are not an American patriot. You are a disgrace to the word patriotism.

Og