America - public enemy #1?

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rampant quodlibertarius
Joined
May 16, 2001
Posts
2,807
Aah, thank god for like-minded individuals...

The United States is now our foremost enemy. We must begin to treat it as such.

There is something almost comical about the prospect of George Bush waging war on another nation because that nation has defied international law.

Since Mr Bush came to office, the United States government has torn up more international treaties and disregarded more UN conventions than the rest of the world has done in twenty years.

It has scuppered the biological weapons convention, while experimenting, illegally, with biological weapons of its own.

It has refused to grant chemical weapons inspectors full access to its laboratories, and destroyed attempts to launch chemical inspections in Iraq.

It has ripped up the anti-ballistic missile treaty, and appears to be ready to violate the nuclear test ban treaty.

It has permitted CIA hit squads to recommence covert operations of the kind which included, in the past, the assassination of foreign heads of state.

It has sabotaged the small arms treaty, undermined the international criminal court, refused to sign the climate change protocol and, last month, sought to immobilise the international convention on torture, so that it could keep foreign observers out of its prison camp in Guantanamo Bay.

Even its preparedness to go to war with Iraq without a mandate from the UN Security Council is a defiance of international law far graver than Saddam Hussein's non-compliance with UN weapons inspectors.


George Monbiot, writing in The Guardian 6th August 2002
 
Of course, the last time the Russians took a country, they did far worse. Go ask your dictator, look him in the eyes, see if he tells you the truth...
 
Just Wondering . . .

SINthysist said:
Of course, the last time the Russians took a country, they did far worse. Go ask your dictator, look him in the eyes, see if he tells you the truth...

Evening SIN, do you believe that the US government is wholly justified in its stance on world treaties that the Dubyah Administration has torn up??
 
sorry, but I don't have a dictator. I'll check the yellow pages.

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier...just as long as I'm the dictator..."
George W. Bush
 
I agree with our founding fathers and the admonishion NOT to get involved in foreign entanglements.

I do not understand the reference to world treaties torn up.

There was the treaty with the formet Soviet Union which they violated from the moment it was signed (proved by their own records after the fall). An oath to a liar is no oath at all!

There was the punative Kyoto which the U.S. Congress would not ratify.

There was the howls of protest from the Chinese and Russians about us developing a defensive shield while they were busy working on theirs...

Why do you think Clinton bombed their embassy?
 
Well, Soviet Money avatar indicating basic philosophy as a collectivist of one form or another. They always end up as Dictatorships. It's concentrated power. Call it the Tony Soprano effect...
 
SINthysist said:
Don.

Do you trust your government?

No, SIN I don't. I question objectively everything it does because it is a conservative Liberal/National Party government which has a well established track record of doing what it is told by the US and other world powers.

Your reference to Kyoto puzzles me. IF greenhouse effect is important to the survival of humanity, then surely reducing greehouse gases is important, and as the US is the largest producer of greenhouse gases it seems reasonable to other nations for the US to use that vast wealth of technology to continue production of commodities using new technology that does not have the present damaging effects.
 
Kyoto was an attempt to politicize Science.

Yes we have emissions. Yes we have Global Warming. We also have no direct causal link which proves man has effected this change in any way shape or form.

You see, as far as global warming, the earth has warmed due to the increased solar activity of one of it's natural cycles. Mars, too is warming. Now if you argue man has caused Global Warming on Earth then one must simply also argue causal effect on MArs or abandon the argument. I can see no other logical alternative.

Kyoto exempted the worst future offenders while at the same time trying to hamstring the one source of technological innovation that could come up with a soulution.
 
SINthysist said:
Well, Soviet Money avatar indicating basic philosophy as a collectivist of one form or another. They always end up as Dictatorships. It's concentrated power.

As I mentioned in another thread, anthropologists have determined that man has always been inherently communist/collectivist.

so perhaps I'm just in touch with our common roots.
 
You question your government, which is a good thing, but apparently you don't question the proposals in this treaty, which were cobbled together by a bunch of governments. I for one, would question the treaty even more stringently.

Just because a treaty exists, doesn't mean it is the right or logical way to proceed on a given issue. People can be wrong. And a bunch of people can be really wrong.
 
Fortunately, we learned, grew, and developed forms of government based more on ideals then muscle...
 
Oh Where Oh Where Has my Comonsense . . .

SINthysist said:
Kyoto was an attempt to politicize Science.

Yes we have emissions. Yes we have Global Warming. We also have no direct causal link which proves man has effected this change in any way shape or form.

You see, as far as global warming, the earth has warmed due to the increased solar activity of one of it's natural cycles. Mars, too is warming. Now if you argue man has caused Global Warming on Earth then one must simply also argue causal effect on MArs or abandon the argument. I can see no other logical alternative.

Kyoto exempted the worst future offenders while at the same time trying to hamstring the one source of technological innovation that could come up with a soulution.

Oh dear, SIN. So "the dark cloud of Asia" is not caused by manufacturing with production methods using petroleum based "unclean" fuels??
 
Gershwin Rulz, OK!!

SINthysist said:
Fortunately, we learned, grew, and developed forms of government based more on ideals then muscle...

This is a fairy tale!!

However, i am currently listening to "Rhapsody in Blue", and any country that can produce a George Gershwin, cannot be all bad. :) :)
 
Re: Oh Where Oh Where Has my Comonsense . . .

Don K Dyck said:
Oh dear, SIN. So "the dark cloud of Asia" is not caused by manufacturing with production methods using petroleum based "unclean" fuels??
I don't think he's saying that there isn't pollution, just that the link between pollution and global warming is not a solid one. We just had an extensive senate hearing on the subject and a distinguished scientist from the University of Viriginia provided detailed counter arguments to this "assumption".

Our exhaust is all scrubbed clean and our environment, including Air is pretty clean. If China has such a noxious cloud, why are they exempt from Kyoto? This whole Kyoto thing is an effort to hobble the US economy. As Mbeki said yesterday in Kyoto, their goal is:

PRESIDENT MBEKI of South Africa launched a thinly veiled attack on the West yesterday, calling for the end of a world political system based on "survival of the fittest" and demanding one that was caring and humane.


Mbeki's philosophy is consistent with his neighbor's, President Mugabe, who is "sharing the wealth" by kicking the white farmers off their land (that they established farms on and worked for decades), brutilizing many and arresting some and giving it to his wife and cronies.
 
Personally I have been preoccupied with the news that apparently, Bush doesn't need to consult congress before going to war with Iraq! How very very convenient.
 
Re: Re: Oh Where Oh Where Has my Comonsense . . .

LovetoGiveRoses said:

I don't think he's saying that there isn't pollution, just that the link between pollution and global warming is not a solid one. We just had an extensive senate hearing on the subject and a distinguished scientist from the University of Viriginia provided detailed counter arguments to this "assumption".

Our exhaust is all scrubbed clean and our environment, including Air is pretty clean. If China has such a noxious cloud, why are they exempt from Kyoto? This whole Kyoto thing is an effort to hobble the US economy. As Mbeki said yesterday in Kyoto, their goal is:



Mbeki's philosophy is consistent with his neighbor's, President Mugabe, who is "sharing the wealth" by kicking the white farmers off their land (that they established farms on and worked for decades), brutilizing many and arresting some and giving it to his wife and cronies. [/B]

Hi LTGR, we haven't seen you over on the aussies thread lately . . . the ladies miss your presence.

Are you sure about your environment?? I mean the Everglades are nearly concentrated chemical pollution and the petroleum based smog in LA is legendary.
 
Good Reason

peachykeen said:
Personally I have been preoccupied with the news that apparently, Bush doesn't need to consult congress before going to war with Iraq! How very very convenient.

Now you understand why the rest of the free world is just a little nervous.
 
Re: Re: Re: Oh Where Oh Where Has my Comonsense . . .

Don K Dyck said:


Hi LTGR, we haven't seen you over on the aussies thread lately . . . the ladies miss your presence.

Are you sure about your environment?? I mean the Everglades are nearly concentrated chemical pollution and the petroleum based smog in LA is legendary.

The LA is cleaner now than 20 years ago. Long ago, before cars were invented, LA was known to the natives as the misty valley. It is surrounded by very tall mountains on three sides. Anything that floats into the air in LA (and in addition to auto and other pollutants, lots of dust flies due to frequent ocean breezes) gets suspended in the air and is trapped there by the three mountains.
 
Thanks Don, I've been working more lately and have been hung up in the political threads in my spare time.
 
Re: Oh Where Oh Where Has my Comonsense . . .

Don K Dyck said:
So "the dark cloud of Asia" is not caused by manufacturing with production methods using petroleum based "unclean" fuels??

from: Beware the Brown Cloud
Blanket of Pollution Covers South Asia
The Associated Press


L O N D O N, Aug. 12 ...

The grimy cocktail of ash, soot, acids and other damaging airborne particles is as much the result of low-tech polluters like wood- and dung-burning stoves, cooking fires and forest clearing as it is of dirty industries, the U.N.-sponsored study found....

Often ignored, he said, was "biomass burning," including forest fires and the burning of vegetation to clear land or to warm the homes of poor people.

More than 200 scientists contributed to the study, overseen by the U.N. Environment Program in preparation for the World Summit on sustainable Development opening Aug. 26 in Johannesburg, South Africa. ...

...

The dense cloud of pollution — also caused by auto emissions, factories and waste incineration — cuts the amount of sunlight reaching the ground and the oceans by 10 to 15 percent, cooling the land and water while heating the atmosphere.



The article mentions similar clouds over South America, East-Asia, and several other places -- oddly enough, it does NOT mention similar clouds over the nations required to do the most under the Kyoto Agreement: The USA and Europe.

I wonder why that might be? Could it be because we don't HAVE any 2 mile thick clouds of pollution because we already have strict pollution regulations?

Nah, clouldn't be that -- it's got to be because we're exporting all of our air pollution with huge fans that blow it onto those unfortunates in asia that don't want to regulate pollution.
 
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