Altruism

cloudy

Alabama Slammer
Joined
Mar 23, 2004
Posts
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Not too long ago there was a very heated discussion in a thread (can't remember which one now) about altruism. Some asserted we only did good deeds for some perceived reward, even if that reward was simply our own gratification.

I stick by my explanation that those of us who are altruistic do it just because it's something we do, and that's all.

Study Shows Babies Try to Help
By LAURAN NEERGAARD, AP Medical Writer
Thu Mar 2, 4:16 PM ET


WASHINGTON - Oops, the scientist dropped his clothespin. Not to worry — a wobbly toddler raced to help, eagerly handing it back. The simple experiment shows the capacity for altruism emerges as early as 18 months of age.

Toddlers' endearing desire to help out actually signals fairly sophisticated brain development, and is a trait of interest to anthropologists trying to tease out the evolutionary roots of altruism and cooperation.

Psychology researcher Felix Warneken performed a series of ordinary tasks in front of toddlers, such as hanging towels with clothespins or stacking books. Sometimes he "struggled" with the tasks; sometimes he deliberately messed up.

Over and over, whether Warneken dropped clothespins or knocked over his books, each of 24 toddlers offered help within seconds — but only if he appeared to need it. Video shows how one overall-clad baby glanced between Warneken's face and the dropped clothespin before quickly crawling over, grabbing the object, pushing up to his feet and eagerly handing back the pin.

Warneken never asked for the help and didn't even say "thank you," so as not to taint the research by training youngsters to expect praise if they helped. After all, altruism means helping with no expectation of anything in return.

And — this is key — the toddlers didn't bother to offer help when he deliberately pulled a book off the stack or threw a pin to the floor, Warneken, of Germany's Max Planck Institute of Evolutionary Anthropology, reports Thursday in the journal Science.

To be altruistic, babies must have the cognitive ability to understand other people's goals plus possess what Warneken calls "pro-social motivation," a desire to be part of their community.

"When those two things come together — they obviously do so at 18 months of age and maybe earlier — they are able to help," Warneken explained.

But babies aren't the whole story.

No other animal is as altruistic as humans are. We donate to charity, recycle for the environment, give up a prime subway seat to the elderly — tasks that seldom bring a tangible return beyond a sense of gratification.

Other animals are skilled at cooperating, too, but most often do so for a goal, such as banding together to chase down food or protect against predators. But primate specialists offer numerous examples of apes, in particular, displaying more humanlike helpfulness, such as the gorilla who rescued a 3-year-old boy who fell into her zoo enclosure.

But observations don't explain what motivated the animals. So Warneken put a few of our closest relatives through a similar helpfulness study.

Would 3- and 4-year-old chimpanzees find and hand over objects that a familiar human "lost"? The chimps frequently did help out if all that was required was reaching for a dropped object — but not nearly as readily as the toddlers had helped, and not if the aid was more complicated, such as if it required reaching inside a box.

It's a creative study that shows chimps may display humanlike helpfulness when they can grasp the person's goal, University of California, Los Angeles, anthropologist Joan Silk wrote in an accompanying review. Just don't assume they help for the reasons of empathy that motivated the babies, she cautioned.
 
I'd pick up your clothespins anytime, gorgeous.

:rose:


(Interesting read - makes me feel a bit better about humans in general.)
 
Just goes to show that humans are basically good. Where they get all fucked up is in the training. :rolleyes:
 
When I don't know who to love, I love them all
When I don't know who to trust, I trust them all...

Love is more, in the end, than sexual love between couples. The larger love of the human race is the force which will save us.
 
cantdog said:
When I don't know who to love, I love them all
When I don't know who to trust, I trust them all...

Love is more, in the end, than sexual love between couples. The larger love of the human race is the force which will save us.

Indeed. :heart:
 
sweetsubsarahh said:
I'd pick up your clothespins anytime, gorgeous.

:rose:


(Interesting read - makes me feel a bit better about humans in general.)

right back atcha, sweets. :kiss:
 
Love you, cloudy. Those 'enlightened self-interest' wankers don't get it at all.
 
cantdog said:
Love you, cloudy. Those 'enlightened self-interest' wankers don't get it at all.

Nope, they don't.....not even a little bit.

Love you, too. :kiss:
 
Thank you Cloudy
Some just cannot or will not understand
That does not make it less true.
Thanks for following up
and being your self
:heart: :kiss: *GBH*

Hugo
 
Isn't it amazing how it takes a stufy for some people to understand what so many people already know?

Little ones, those who are untainted by the profiteering and materialism of our society are willing to help those who need it. It is only after people learn that they might get paid in some way for their efforts that they stop helping for the sake of helping.

Those who continue to help just for the sake of helping, without gain of any kind are looked upon as strange.

A sad commentary on our society isn't it?

Cat
 
SeaCat said:
A sad commentary on our society isn't it?
*nods* To me it's evident that humans are by nature altruistic. We're a social animal and helping one another is an important social act. Society, not specifically the egoism driven socierty of today but society in general, seems to take this altruism and turn it into codes. Which only complicate things, and in the end destroys the meaning of it.
 
SeaCat said:
Those who continue to help just for the sake of helping, without gain of any kind are looked upon as strange.

Yup.

... but that's a good thing, IMO. I don't want ANYONE to ever look upon me as "normal."
 
I have to say that humanity, as a social animal, does tend to set up codes and regulations and strictures on behaviour. It seems to happen in every culture, where actions become custom. C-D's right in that the training screws people over, but I'm not altogether convinced that the training is extraneous to humanity itself.

I tell you what though; that research did put a smile on my face as I pictured the toddlers eagerly helping.

The Earl
 
TheEarl said:
I have to say that humanity, as a social animal, does tend to set up codes and regulations and strictures on behaviour. It seems to happen in every culture, where actions become custom. C-D's right in that the training screws people over, but I'm not altogether convinced that the training is extraneous to humanity itself.

I tell you what though; that research did put a smile on my face as I pictured the toddlers eagerly helping.

The Earl

Me too. :)

I think that when we moved from a "community" to a "city" we lost something precious.
 
I'm not sure if this is relavant.

As some of you know, I'm currently entrenched in a nasty situation involving the mrs's brother, sil and their kids.

Although there really isn't anything in it for me, I cannot sit idly by and watch the situation deteriorate. I find myself compelled to take whatever action I can to help.

However, the truly amazing part is the support and assistance I have gotten from my friends here. Without asking, they have come forth with some excellent advice, despite that we've never actually met and they only know me as so many words that have been posted here.

You know who you are and you have my deepest thanks and undieing gratitude.
 
That someone thinks that people will only do seemingly altruistic things with the hope of reward says more about the cynical person than it does about the one doing the good deeds. When someone says that I believe that they themselves would only do something with the expectation of a reward and so they can't fathom why anyone else would help out for nothing in return.

An instance that comes to mind is the argument that I had with my brother about giving blood. I give blood every eight weeks. The blood center calls me all the time because they use a lot of my blood type, so I go whenever they call and give blood. A company recently opened in town that pays for plasma, but if you give plasma you can't donate whole blood. My brother doesn't understand how I can be in the financial mess I'm in and still donate blood for free when someone is paying for plasma. When I told him that the blood I donate goes to save lives and that something like that shouldn't require a reward, he just didn't get it. One pays, the other doesn't. End of story.

If I never need blood I will get nothing out of all these years of donating. My blood will likely not go to save anyone I know. I stand to gain nothing out of this at all, except for the sensation of getting stuck with two needles each time. Of course, I do get a Sprite and a cookie after the donation, so maybe I am in it for the reward. :)
 
Boota said:
Of course, I do get a Sprite and a cookie after the donation, so maybe I am in it for the reward. :)

DEAR GOD!!

I just get a biscuit and some orange juice! How can there be such appalling double standards?

The Earl
 
TheEarl said:
DEAR GOD!!

I just get a biscuit and some orange juice! How can there be such appalling double standards?

The Earl


Maybe they don't have to filter all the drubnk juice outta his blood?

:kiss:
 
sweetsubsarahh said:
Maybe they don't have to filter all the drubnk juice outta his blood?

:kiss:

I'd be morally outraged and offended if it wasn't for the fact that I've been out drinking with the rugby team today.

The Earl
 
TheEarl said:
I'd be morally outraged and offended if it wasn't for the fact that I've been out drinking with the rugby team today.

The Earl


One of the many reasons we love you.

:heart:
 
cloudy said:
Over and over, whether Warneken dropped clothespins or knocked over his books, each of 24 toddlers offered help within seconds — but only if he appeared to need it. Video shows how one overall-clad baby glanced between Warneken's face and the dropped clothespin before quickly crawling over, grabbing the object, pushing up to his feet and eagerly handing back the pin.
This is too damn cute! Makes me want to adopt a toddler....

But then, maybe the toddlers do know they'll get rewarded? They hand you a clothes pin, you change their dipers? ;)

And yeah, I'm totally in the altruistic camp. Anyone remember the game "Scruples"? I was playing it and a card came up saying, "You find a wallet full of money and credit cards. What do you do?" The person asked the question said, "Take the money and return the wallet." Two of us in the game were appalled. "You return it all!" we said, with no expectation of reward.

The "unscruplous" person informed us that given the amount of money and credit cards, the person who dropped it could afford to lose the money, so why not take it? It wasn't as if he was going to max out the credit cards....He thought that altruistic.

As it turns out, my spouse and I have twice, over the years, found fat, lost wallets and returned them both times untouched. We even refused to take a reward when offered it. Maybe we never got past the toddler stage?
 
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