Alpha Males are a Myth!

[3113]

From here:

"The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book “The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species,” written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book’s info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then in all of previous history.

One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. “Alpha” implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that’s all we call them today, the “breeding male,” “breeding female,” or “male parent,” “female parent,” or the “adult male” or “adult female.” In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the “dominant breeder” can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a “subordinate breeder.”

So the dominant male wolves – those whom manosphere dudes would still call the alphas – achieve this position not by being sexy badasses but simply by siring and taking responsibility for pups. To use the terminology in the manner of manosphere dudes, alphas become alphas by acting like betas. That’s right: alphas are betas.

Well, this is going to put a wedgie in all those werewolf romances....

 

[emap]

I always thought most of those were not right anyway. Course that isn't because of the whole alpha and beta thing they do but other reasons. I'm a grumpy reader though, if the writer keeps doing cliche and leading to an obvious thing I stop reading.

Not to say the whole idea of alpha and beta personality is wrong. All animals to a certain extend do that. Except for humans and apes it's only to mom and until she runs you off. Submissive isn't quite a mindset, but it is because you can choose to be or not.

Also shutting up now because it's not about wolves and whether there is an alpha wolf or not.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Sure. How else do you explain VP and Rob Graham if no alpha males exist.

Yes, Virginia! There are alpha males in the world for little girls to admire and respect.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So the dominant male wolves – those whom manosphere dudes would still call the alphas – achieve this position not by being sexy badasses but simply by siring and taking responsibility for pups.

That's going to destroy the evopsyche boys as well.

 

[Verdad]

I always cringe at the way these concepts are applied to humans. Not that I expect it to stop now.

 

[PennLady]

Perhaps this explains why I've always bemused if not annoyed by all the alleged alpha male stuff. I didn't find them attractive so much as bossy and patience-trying. And it probably explains why the alpha males in my were stories aren't really stereotypical alphas.

 

[Handley_Page]

One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. “Alpha” implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that’s all we call them today, the “breeding male,” “breeding female,” or “male parent,” “female parent,” or the “adult male” or “adult female.” In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the “dominant breeder” can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a “subordinate breeder.”

Well, a year or two ago there was a programme on UK TV (see this) about a guy who's spend a lot of time with wolves. Studying them and learning their howls and so on. But he pointed out that the IS an Alpha male, who leads the pack until such time as he can no longer defend his position (there's also an Alpha female).

Natural selection would dictate that the future of the pack is determined by strength and skill. So the Alpha pair are the ones who reproduce and thus have strong and healthy offspring.

 

[sun_sea_sky]

The assumption here is that a good fighter is also a good leader, and has good genes generally. A few crazed megalomaniacs from past history come to mind here. They may have been good at winning a military conflict, but not good at much else.

 

[TxRad]

One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. “Alpha” implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that’s all we call them today, the “breeding male,” “breeding female,” or “male parent,” “female parent,” or the “adult male” or “adult female.” In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the “dominant breeder” can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a “subordinate breeder.”

Well, a year or two ago there was a programme on UK TV (see this) about a guy who's spend a lot of time with wolves. Studying them and learning their howls and so on. But he pointed out that the IS an Alpha male, who leads the pack until such time as he can no longer defend his position (there's also an Alpha female).

Natural selection would dictate that the future of the pack is determined by strength and skill. So the Alpha pair are the ones who reproduce and thus have strong and healthy offspring.

The guy that wrote the piece you quoted used to think the same thing and wrote a book saying so. Now he has changed his mind with more data.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's going to destroy the evopsyche boys as well.

"The evidence doesn't support my theory, so I'll have to reconsider my theory" - no evo-psych believer, ever. Leastways, none that I've ever encountered.

Usually they start with the conclusion they want to reach, and pick evidence that supports it; they'll either ignore that finding, or downplay it and focus on something else.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pda4zULB3EA

Alpha male in action.

 

[lovecraft68]

Rather than alpha beta I think it can be broken down into leaders and followers. I believe in Alphas as a unisex concept there are not just alpha males, but females as well.

I feel that the average Dominant/Dominatrix exudes a lot of the alpha qualities.

Look around your workplace. When the shit hits the fan the average person is looking around for someone to tell them what to do.

Being an alpha is not just about being a sexy bad ass, but just having more balls and initiative than the average goofball who just goes through the motions.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"The evidence doesn't support my theory, so I'll have to reconsider my theory" - no evo-psych believer, ever. Leastways, none that I've ever encountered.

Usually they start with the conclusion they want to reach, and pick evidence that supports it; they'll either ignore that finding, or downplay it and focus on something else.

I especially like it when they start reminiscing about all the wooly mammoths and great aurochs' they killed back in the good old days

 

[bashfullyshameless]

Rather than alpha beta I think it can be broken down into leaders and followers. I believe in Alphas as a unisex concept there are not just alpha males, but females as well.

I feel that the average Dominant/Dominatrix exudes a lot of the alpha qualities.

Look around your workplace. When the shit hits the fan the average person is looking around for someone to tell them what to do.

Being an alpha is not just about being a sexy bad ass, but just having more balls and initiative than the average goofball who just goes through the motions.

This is a great way to view the world when you think you're a ballsy badass and everyone else is just an average goofball, but frequently those goofballs have good reasons to stop, watch and think.

They may know very well that they don't have the authority to take charge. Or that they don't have enough information (yet) to make an appropriate decision. Or, above all, that they may wind up having to compensate for the disruptive influence of that guy who sees himself as an alpha male when he disagrees with your decision (or the threat to his presumed leadership) and has to make a big thing out of it. Sometimes it's convenient to let someone think they're in charge, because it's just not worth the conflict. Often it's not about balls or initiative.

I dunno. The whole "alpha" thing has always seemed to me like a self-congratulatory world-view for people who see themselves as alphas.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Rather than alpha beta I think it can be broken down into leaders and followers. I believe in Alphas as a unisex concept there are not just alpha males, but females as well.

I feel that the average Dominant/Dominatrix exudes a lot of the alpha qualities.

Look around your workplace. When the shit hits the fan the average person is looking around for someone to tell them what to do.

Being an alpha is not just about being a sexy bad ass, but just having more balls and initiative than the average goofball who just goes through the motions.

Youre right. You see it in combat. Someone always comes forward who's calm and alert and knows what to do in the chaos. What LIT pissants never get is how dominance isnt your costume and props, its born into you.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

This is a great way to view the world when you think you're a ballsy badass and everyone else is just an average goofball, but frequently those goofballs have good reasons to stop, watch and think.

They may know very well that they don't have the authority to take charge. Or that they don't have enough information (yet) to make an appropriate decision. Or, above all, that they may wind up having to compensate for the disruptive influence of that guy who sees himself as an alpha male when he disagrees with your decision (or the threat to his presumed leadership) and has to make a big thing out of it. Sometimes it's convenient to let someone think they're in charge, because it's just not worth the conflict. Often it's not about balls or initiative.

I dunno. The whole "alpha" thing has always seemed to me like a self-congratulatory world-view for people who see themselves as alphas.

No. Youre no alpha male, so youre clueless about the experience.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is a great way to view the world when you think you're a ballsy badass and everyone else is just an average goofball, but frequently those goofballs have good reasons to stop, watch and think.

They may know very well that they don't have the authority to take charge. Or that they don't have enough information (yet) to make an appropriate decision. Or, above all, that they may wind up having to compensate for the disruptive influence of that guy who sees himself as an alpha male when he disagrees with your decision (or the threat to his presumed leadership) and has to make a big thing out of it. Sometimes it's convenient to let someone think they're in charge, because it's just not worth the conflict. Often it's not about balls or initiative.

I dunno. The whole "alpha" thing has always seemed to me like a self-congratulatory world-view for people who see themselves as alphas.

I enjoy this debate. Now let me ask you seriously, do you feel everyone is created equally?

Now, I am not discussing potential because everyone has that, but look around you and see will see that some make much more use of it than others.

You don't think there are some who rise above others? This isn't a question of arrogance or ego, but simple fact. Men-or women- were not created equally.

Do we all have the same looks? Nope, some are prettier than others, same intelligence? Nope some people are smarter than others.

Some people are uniquely gifted, others are not.

Some people may not have the raw potential of others, but while some lay back and waste their gifts, many others work their asses off and achive much more.

If we were all equal there would be no heroes, no leaders, no trendsetters.

And that has nothing to do with sexy badass, that's the porn alpha. I'm speaking in general. Some people rise above others pure and simple.

 

[TxRad]

Youre right. You see it in combat. Someone always comes forward who's calm and alert and knows what to do in the chaos. What LIT pissants never get is how dominance isnt your costume and props, its born into you.

JBJ, you've got to quit watching them old John Wayne movies. The guy who is calm and collected during a firefight is usually dead or higher than a kite. There is a reason most medal of honor winners are dead when they get the medal. They usually do the right thing at the right time but mostly its not of their doing.

As for dominance, you wouldn't know dominance if it bite you on the ass.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No. Youre no alpha male, so youre clueless about the experience.

Laughing out loud here, for reals!

Thanks jimmybits, I needed that.

 

[amicus]

Sure. How else do you explain VP and Rob Graham if no alpha males exist.

Yes, Virginia! There are alpha males in the world for little girls to admire and respect.

~~~

Hi, James, with 20 grandkids, ya think ya got room on thet Alpha bench for me? Like some Cheeto's?

ami

 

[TxRad]

Laughing out loud here, for reals!

Thanks jimmybits, I needed that.

Speaking of clueless, guess who just showed up.

 

[amicus]

I always cringe at the way these concepts are applied to humans. Not that I expect it to stop now.

~~~

Cruising and wanted to say, hello...

ami

 

[Stella_Omega]

Speaking of clueless, guess who just showed up.

There goes the neighborhood...

 

[bashfullyshameless]

I enjoy this debate. Now let me ask you seriously, do you feel everyone is created equally?

<snip>

Some people may not have the raw potential of others, but while some lay back and waste their gifts, many others work their asses off and achive much more.

If we were all equal there would be no heroes, no leaders, no trendsetters.

And that has nothing to do with sexy badass, that's the porn alpha. I'm speaking in general. Some people rise above others pure and simple.

Sure, there are all these differences. If everyone's above average, then nobody's above average. I'm not arguing any of that.

Again, though, a great deal of it is in the eye of the beholder. An awful lot of folks would say some of my potential is wasted because I'm in a low-paying career -- but I'm HAPPY with what I do, I'm good at it, and it matters. Could I have done more in a different field? Possibly, but it wouldn't have been what I wanted.

Context matters. Differing goals matter.

Some people see an "alpha" as someone who quickly takes charge, makes decisions, feels confident and all that. And that may well be genuine. But just as often it's someone who's trying desperately to BE an alpha, and be SEEN as such, when really everyone else around them is just rolling their eyes and humoring them because it's easier than having constant blow-ups.

I find genuine confidence admirable and even sexy. Arrogance repels me.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sure, there are all these differences. If everyone's above average, then nobody's above average. I'm not arguing any of that.

Again, though, a great deal of it is in the eye of the beholder. An awful lot of folks would say some of my potential is wasted because I'm in a low-paying career -- but I'm HAPPY with what I do, I'm good at it, and it matters. Could I have done more in a different field? Possibly, but it wouldn't have been what I wanted.

Context matters. Differing goals matter.

Some people see an "alpha" as someone who quickly takes charge, makes decisions, feels confident and all that. And that may well be genuine. But just as often it's someone who's trying desperately to BE an alpha, and be SEEN as such, when really everyone else around them is just rolling their eyes and humoring them because it's easier than having constant blow-ups.

I find genuine confidence admirable and even sexy. Arrogance repels me.

Oh, I hear you on wasted potential. I'm a warehouse manager who three times has turned down the opportunity (and a 25k a year raise) to be the operations manager. I simply don't want the headaches.

I've also piled up almost 50 credits at a local college taking random courses, but no desire to add them up to a degree. I juts take whatever looks interesting.

My job sent me to school years ago and I earned an MBA. The closest I have ever come to using it is when I put together the business plan for my comic book store.

Unlike the alpha, I don;t tout myself. I still speak like the street rat I grew up as and find it amusing to know that people think I'm not so bright. It really is an advantage to be underestimated.

But I am no alpha, mainly because I'm too apathetic. I'm a happy to just do what I want and not worry about how much more I could be doing.

And people who try to be an alpha aren't just because of that. Greatness when self proclaimed really isn't greatness.

Confidence and arrogance is a fine line, for sure. Because as you said, confidence is attractive, but arrogance sickening.