"Almost" Banned...

[Boxlicker101]

I am currently in the process of editing all my stories and reposting them. I believe I have become better with experience and I also believe I have become better after reading the advice on this and other threads. This is not a new years resolution because I started doing it last month but I have resolved to finish it. Besides resubmitting edited versions of my stories I am changing some of the descriptions and I will be changeing two from "Erotic Coupling" to "Anal" because I believe they fit there better. I am also adding a paragraph requesting people to vote and to provide feedback, and it seems to be working because the story that I submitted late last month and that was posted on Jan. 2 already has 17 votes. Some of my stories have been around for eight months and don't have that many yet. The last time I checked, it stood at 4.63 and I feel good about that also.

One of the things I am changing is frequently starting sentences with "Then". When I wrote, I felt not quite right about it, and I am changing them now. Taking advice from Pure, I am also deleting some of my adjectives but I will still leave more than she likes.

 

[pop_54]

Hi all

I understood your point, Harold, and I agree wholeheartedly. Any writing so poor that it distracts from the narrative sets my teeth on edge.

The one that gets me is "then...then...then" ad nauseum. "Then she undid her bra. Then I unzipped my pants. Then she moaned softly." It's already a sequence, no need for the extra words.

I've always tried to adhere to Strunk & White's axiom, even in matters as mundane as technical writing:

Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline, but that every word tell.

'Then' can be a bit superfluous at times I admit Zack and a little harsh sounding so it sticks out like a sore thumb at the beginning of a phrase or sentence. I tend to rearrange the order or words if I feel the need to use 'then' "She then moaned softly" sounds a bit less harsh.

Now for this obsession with proper English and proper writing style, English is an ever changing and colouful language, you are allowed to take liberties you couldn't with a lot of national dialects, Shakespeare did it and no bugger's ever moaned much have they. As long as a piece of writing is entertaining or informative, whichever is the intended, what the fuck does it matter if a couple of words are out of place here and there occasionally. Purists annoy me much more than folks who put there, they're, or their, in the wrong context occasionally.

Strunk & White is just another persons opinion on things, they didn't invent or lay out the language, and so they have nothing more than an opinion to offer. I don't tend to take such manuals too seriously, but then I'm famous for making it up as I go along.

As for not wasting energy by over elaborating, yes too much information can fuck with your brain and therefore fuck up a piece of writing sometimes, but too little information in fiction writing will do likewise. It's a fine line to tread in order to get the balance right. I prefer to over-elaborate a little rather than under-elaborate. In factual writing an illustration or picture is often provided or available somewhere, in fiction it is very rare and the narrative is all you have to go on.

"Jane is a tall girl and quite experienced" Very nice, doesn't take up much space or brain power, but does it fully describe Jane as you want her visualised by the reader.

"Jane is quite tall, not overly skinny, quite attractive and shapely in truth, her sexual prowess is quite famous in the local area and it is rumoured she has a cunt like a paper hangers bucket" There, we know a bit more about Jane now, and it hasn't gone too far over the top

Write as it comes, don't spend hours fucking with your story to make it match someone elses opinions, if it looks and sounds right to you, and it makes sense to a volunteer reader or two, it's your tale so it must be right.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Re: Hi all

'Then' can be a bit superfluous at times I admit Zack and a little harsh sounding so it sticks out like a sore thumb at the beginning of a phrase or sentence. I tend to rearrange the order or words if I feel the need to use 'then' "She then moaned softly" sounds a bit less harsh.

Now for this obsession with proper English and proper writing style, English is an ever changing and colouful language, you are allowed to take liberties you couldn't with a lot of national dialects, Shakespeare did it and no bugger's ever moaned much have they. As long as a piece of writing is entertaining or informative, whichever is the intended, what the fuck does it matter if a couple of words are out of place here and there occasionally. Purists annoy me much more than folks who put there, they're, or their, in the wrong context occasionally.

Strunk & White is just another persons opinion on things, they didn't invent or lay out the language, and so they have nothing more than an opinion to offer. I don't tend to take such manuals too seriously, but then I'm famous for making it up as I go along.

As for not wasting energy by over elaborating, yes too much information can fuck with your brain and therefore fuck up a piece of writing sometimes, but too little information in fiction writing will do likewise. It's a fine line to tread in order to get the balance right. I prefer to over-elaborate a little rather than under-elaborate. In factual writing an illustration or picture is often provided or available somewhere, in fiction it is very rare and the narrative is all you have to go on.

"Jane is a tall girl and quite experienced" Very nice, doesn't take up much space or brain power, but does it fully describe Jane as you want her visualised by the reader.

"Jane is quite tall, not overly skinny, quite attractive and shapely in truth, her sexual prowess is quite famous in the local area and it is rumoured she has a cunt like a paper hangers bucket" There, we know a bit more about Jane now, and it hasn't gone too far over the top

Write as it comes, don't spend hours fucking with your story to make it match someone elses opinions, if it looks and sounds right to you, and it makes sense to a volunteer reader or two, it's your tale so it must be right.

Basically, I agree with you but sometimes poor choice of words can be distracting. As was said earlier, if you keep saying things like "almost" or "nearly", or "began" or "started" or beginning many sentences or clauses with "then", it can be distracting. In your sentence, you use "quite" three times, which is excessive, and your sentence is run on. You aren't telling me anything about Jane's cunt because I don't know what a paper hanger's bucket is like but if her cunt is like any kind of a bucket, it does not sound very appealing.

Fiction, especially porn, requires a lot of modifiers because the writer should paint a picture, an erotic picture in our case. You can do that without modifiers but you can do it a lot better with modifiers. Some people would take issue with that but I won't let it change me much.

 

[Weird Harold]

That's a very nice quote and very good advice that novice writers should see -- and see often, until it sinks in.

Bump because it's been over a year since any novices saw this thread.

 

[yui]

Bump because it's been over a year since any novices saw this thread.

You know, I almost didn't read this thread.

 

[angela146]

Here we have an example of a common problem in giving advice:

The posters in this thread tell us not to do something but do not offer an alternative.

The advice, "...have your character DO it not start to do it," doesn't address the central point.

That point is, how does one create a Hellenistic moment in a story without using words like "almost", "nearly", "started" etc.?

Eroticism is often at its most delicious at the critical moment. For me, the most stimulating part of sex is the anticipatory pause immediately before something happens.

I'll offer an example of a way of creating a Hellenistic moment without the "almost" and I would like others to offer their own suggestions:

As I lay on my back, I watched him. My hunger grew inside me. He dipped his fingertips into the oil. Droplets fell to the floor as he brought his hand over to my breast. He opened my robe to expose my right breast.

His middle fingertip paused slightly above the nipple. A drop of oil formed and he withdrew his finger just enough to prevent it from touching. I wanted to scream but wouldn't give him the satifsfaction.

Massaging the drop between his thumb and finger, he held it a gnat's breadth above my now-engorged nipple. Turning his eyes to mine, he asked, "Were you faithful to me while I was gone?"

I couldn't lie to him. "No," I said.

His hand moved away and he flicked the drop off to the carpet, saying, "Turn over..."​

In this example, the middle two paragraphs could be replaced with "He almost touched me before asking..."

The point isn't that we need to cut verbiage. Instead, we need to include verbiage that creates texture rather than merely informing.

When I find too many "almosts", "nearlys" and "began tos" in a draft, it doesn't lead me to cut them out. Rather it is a clue that I should give the reader more of an explananation, more texture, more teasing.

But then, I'm a sadistic bitch when it comes to writing...

 

[Weird Harold]

The advice, "...have your character DO it not start to do it," doesn't address the central point.

That point is, how does one create a Hellenistic moment in a story without using words like "almost", "nearly", "started" etc.?

Acually, my central point was that Almost, Nearly, Started, etc are Overused and the solution to THAT point is indeed "don't do that."

You do have a point of your own -- Even when those words are NOT overused, there are often better choices to use where they would be appropriate.

 

[stonedfox]

Use of the passsive voice must be ruthlessly suppressed.

:

Stupid Newbie Question:

Do they Lit Volunteer Editors pick that up? I was always really bad about doing it. I don't want to be a dummy!

 

[Weird Harold]

Stupid Newbie Question:

Do they Lit Volunteer Editors pick that up? I was always really bad about doing it. I don't want to be a dummy!

It depends on the editor. Since they are all volunteers, the range of qualifications is fairly wide -- from barely competent proofreaders to full-fledged grammar nazis.

I search and destroy Passive Voice with Word's readability statistics -- the Grammar check won't stop for every case of passive voice, but the readability statistics will count it. Check paragraph by paragraph and then sentence by sentence to find where passive voice is 100% and then figure out why Word thinks it's passive voice.

 

[tolyk]

Almost doesn't count!

Except in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Fun older thread, good info.

 

[Boxlicker101]

It depends on the editor. Since they are all volunteers, the range of qualifications is fairly wide -- from barely competent proofreaders to full-fledged grammar nazis.

I search and destroy Passive Voice with Word's readability statistics -- the Grammar check won't stop for every case of passive voice, but the readability statistics will count it. Check paragraph by paragraph and then sentence by sentence to find where passive voice is 100% and then figure out why Word thinks it's passive voice.

I would be inclined to disagree with the persecution of the passive voice. Sometimes it is necessary and sometimes it is better to give a varietyt to the sentences being used. Here are two paragraphs from a story I wrote a few months ago in the Mind Control category:


His principal “treatment” method was hypnosis. This was the only psychiatric tool he had ever bothered to learn and he was good at it. Since he was strictly a heterosexual, all his patients were women and once they were under his control in a hypnotic trance, they would do anything he wanted. Clayton had an extensive videotape library of the women doing what he wanted and, enjoyable as the sex had been, he often thought that watching them and himself on videotape was sometimes even better. Being sucked off by the town’s social leader had been very pleasant but subsequent viewings of that august lady licking cum from his cock were even better.

On this one particular day, his first patient was Mrs. Brown, a very good looking and large-breasted young married woman whose husband thought she was frigid, and they wanted her to be treated for it. Clayton didn’t think she was very frigid; she had certainly enjoyed it when he had fucked her on their first session, cumming after about five minutes and again ten minutes later. Clayton had very much enjoyed the session too and, after looking over all his appointments, he decided he would fuck her again. Although reasonably virile, he didn’t want to wear himself out so he usually only had sex with one or sometimes two patients in a day, and Mrs. Brown seemed to be the hottest one who would be seeing him that day.


Spell/grammarcheck tells me what percentage of the sentences are in the passive voice and, in this case, the last sentence of the first para. and the first of the second para. are passive. I could have written both the sentences in the active voice but I believe they read better the way they are. This particular story is 7% passive voice, which is about average for me.

I'm aware, of course, that the passive voice can be overdone,

 

[hmmnmm]

It seems to be that almost always I continue to be reminded of important pieces of editing wisdom, nearly everytime I am in the mood for wandering over to this neighborhood.
Of course, then...
it seems as though I have forgotten what I was wanting to say, or not necessarily wanting but attempting - to say, or write, or type - or communicate.
Please continue.
Seems this nearly always happens and practically continually!

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

IAnther one i hate is overuse of "appeared to" "appeared to be" "seemed to" and the like.

*Hides behind the brick wall*

*pops her head up*

I do this and I HATE that I do it.

*Quickly ducks back down*

~Appeared to be WOK

 

[sweetnpetite]

Some people have missed the point here. It's not that you should *never* have a sentance that uses an almost or started to word. It's that some stories make you feel like nothing is h appening because the writer has decided that he/she needs a modifier for everything, and a modifier that diminishes the impact of every action. You can argue for or against the use of it in 1 or 2 sentances- is it the best choice or is there something better, ect, ect. ect. But the point of the thread is there are some stories here were *nobody* ever *does* anything and nothing ever *is* If you've ever read a story like this, you'll understand and see no need to defend the practice. Overuse of these types of modifiers indicates to me an author who is too timid to come out and say anything. It's like talking to a friend who says, "Well, you know, I kinda think that maybe, we might, if you don't think this is a stupid idea...." You sense that the perons is afraid to express themselves, to take a risk, to say, to do. Writing is about taking a risk, and letting people hear what you have to say, even opening yourself up to critism.

 

[Weird Harold]

I would be inclined to disagree with the persecution of the passive voice. Sometimes it is necessary and sometimes it is better to give a varietyt to the sentences being used.
...

This particular story is 7% passive voice, which is about average for me.

I'm aware, of course, that the passive voice can be overdone,

Purdue University's Online Writing Lab says, in part, "... overuse of passive voice throughout an essay canleave your prose seeming flat and uninteresting."

Since I was refered to that particular article on Passive Voice, I've discovered that something in the neighborhood of Two Percent Passive Voice is where the flat and uninteresting begins to show up -- at least for me.

Of course that figure of Two Percent is for the entire story and examples such as the one you postedare placs where using passive voice is acceptable and the percentages for two paragraphs is naturaly higher than for the entire story if those two sentences are the only passive voice you use.

Hower, the citation from Purdue University about passive voice could probably be applied to almost anything -- Overuse of any word or phrasing can make your prose seem boring and unimaginative -- and that fits the general point of this thread: Overuse is generally a bad thing.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Purdue University's Online Writing Lab says, in part, "... overuse of passive voice throughout an essay canleave your prose seeming flat and uninteresting."

Since I was refered to that particular article on Passive Voice, I've discovered that something in the neighborhood of Two Percent Passive Voice is where the flat and uninteresting begins to show up -- at least for me.

Of course that figure of Two Percent is for the entire story and examples such as the one you postedare placs where using passive voice is acceptable and the percentages for two paragraphs is naturaly higher than for the entire story if those two sentences are the only passive voice you use.

Hower, the citation from Purdue University about passive voice could probably be applied to almost anything -- Overuse of any word or phrasing can make your prose seem boring and unimaginative -- and that fits the general point of this thread: Overuse is generally a bad thing.

Hi, Weird Old One.
The writing Lab you cite is about essays, not fiction. Personally, I believe that when writing fiction, especially erotic or smutty fiction when descriptions of sensations are so important, the passive voice has a place. POV means something, too. I might say: "Her pussy was stretched to the maximum by the big cock surging in and out." or: "His cock stretched her pussy to the maximum as he rammed it in and out." I might say: "My cock was enveloped by her eager mouth." or: "I eagerly enveloped his cock in my mouth."

In both those examples, the first is in the passive voice because it describes something being done to the protag. The second is in the active voice because it describes the protag. doing something.

From your previous post, I had the impression that you were out to eliminate all passive voice, and I think that would be a mistake. I agree that it should not be overused, nor should any word or phrase be overused, even important words like cock, pussy, cum, fuck, ass, etc.

 

[Weird Harold]

Hi, Weird Old One.
The writing Lab you cite is about essays, not fiction.

Actually, that site -- and most other sites on writing -- refer to any written work as an "Essay" whether it's a non-fiction technicl report or a frivilous fantasy epic about passive bunnies.

The scourge that is Passive Voice is properly a discussion for a different thread if we go beyond the problem of overuse. As stated above, I've come to define "overuse" as "no more than "two percent passive voice as reported by MS Word's readability statistics" -- My personal target for Passive Voice in MY writing is one percent or less.

 

[Alex De Kok]

I missed this thread first time around. I have to plead guilty to occasional lapses, but honest - I do try. I have an index card taped up near the monitor, almost in line of sight, on which is written the following:

Watch out for -

'Was' - telling not showing
'~ly' - there's usually (sic) a better way to word
'and'
'as'
'really' and 'very'
'began to', 'started to', 'seem[ed] to'
'just'
'sort of'
'almost' and 'nearly'
'somewhat'
'then', 'that', 'of', 'with'

Note, I'm not telling myself not to use them, but to be sure I mean to do so.

Alex

 

[Colleen Thomas]

... or it should be.

[rant]
I just finished two stories in a row where nobody seemed to actually DO anything -- they "almost screamed," "Almost jumped," and "almost" did all sorts of things, but they never actually got around to actually DOING them.
[/rant]

The thing is, I can't even figure out what the author's are trying to say when they over-use "almost" like that. ("Nearly" is over-used frequently by some authors, as well.)

Almost screamed I use now & again. there have been many times I have just about let out with a scream, but due to circumstance have managed not to. Given my druthers, I probably would have, but location, proximity of others, time (think dead of the night in an appartment with paper thin walls), or other circumstances have forced me to bit it back.

I agree it can be over used, but there are times when you almost or nearly do something, but refrain, for whatever reason.

 

[Weird Harold]

I missed this thread first time around. I have to plead guilty to occasional lapses, but honest - I do try. I have an index card taped up near the monitor, almost in line of sight, on which is written the following:

Watch out for -

'Was' - telling not showing
'~ly' - there's usually (sic) a better way to word
'and'
'as'
'really' and 'very'
'began to', 'started to', 'seem[ed] to'
'just'
'sort of'
'almost' and 'nearly'
'somewhat'
'then', 'that', 'of', 'with'

Note, I'm not telling myself not to use them, but to be sure I mean to do so.

Alex

One of the first people to edit my writing told me that one of the first steps in editing a story is to do a Find for the word AND and carefully consider whether it is necessary in each case.

That advice was to correct a tendency to long and complex sentences, but the advice works as well for other common words that hint at bad writing habits.

Almost screamed I use now & again. there have been many times I have just about let out with a scream, but due to circumstance have managed not to.

Your example is a bit different than the, "Oh, God, I'm cumming," she almost screamed in my ear, and similar things that filled the two stories that prompted this thread.

Even so, I think "I managed to stop the scream welling inside me before I woke the neighbors" is a bit more descriptive than "I almost screamed."

 

[Colleen Thomas]

One of the first people to edit my writing told me that one of the first steps in editing a story is to do a Find for the word AND and carefully consider whether it is necessary in each case.

That advice was to correct a tendency to long and complex sentences, but the advice works as well for other common words that hint at bad writing habits.



Your example is a bit different than the, "Oh, God, I'm cumming," she almost screamed in my ear, and similar things that filled the two stories that prompted this thread.

Even so, I think "I managed to stop the scream welling inside me before I woke the neighbors" is a bit more descriptive than "I almost screamed."

Perhaps a bit more descriptive, but not usually in keeping with the plain spoken mood I try to engender in my works. I almost did this or he nearly did that is common parlance now. I don't have any objections to your pointing out that it's overused in general and absolutely abused in some specific stories. I just wanted to note it does have a use that is credible, if not perhaps the best way to describe something.

 

[Black Tulip]

I missed this thread first time around. I have to plead guilty to occasional lapses, but honest - I do try. I have an index card taped up near the monitor, almost in line of sight, on which is written the following:

Watch out for -

'Was' - telling not showing
'~ly' - there's usually (sic) a better way to word
'and'
'as'
'really' and 'very'
'began to', 'started to', 'seem[ed] to'
'just'
'sort of'
'almost' and 'nearly'
'somewhat'
'then', 'that', 'of', 'with'

Note, I'm not telling myself not to use them, but to be sure I mean to do so.

Alex

I find that an excellent idea. I have this nifty program somewhere that does an analysis of a complete text and gives a report with all words used and the number of times behind it. Very useful for finding your own weak spots. Perhaps I should use it more often and make my own list.


As for the passive voice. I usually score between 2 and 3% and I always thought that was rather decent. I agree with Box, sometimes it is exactly what is needed.