Age

[TheEarl]

Just thought I'd jump on the 'defend Joe' bandwagon. Joe does say stupid things on occasion (Sorry mate, but it's true), that do get a lot of people riled up. He is also young. But the two don't necessarily correlate.

I'm younger than Joe by three years. I say stupid things on occasion. Was looking back over my PMs when clearing my inbox and found a collection of them relating to a time when I said several stupid things in a short space of time, when my sarky humour didn't transfer to text very well and I accidentally insulted and offended at least three members of the board. Did anyone mention I was young? Are my occasional stupid comments and outre viewpoints because I'm only twenty?

Please don't patronise either of us by saying or intimating that we are incapable of debate or cannot understand a situation fully because of our youth. Call us wankers, say we're idiots, I couldn't care. But don't tell us we don't understand because we're young.

Disappointed in some people.

The Earl

Joe: I've argued both for and against you. Quite often I don't understand you, and often I don't agree with you. However the fact that you're here and willing to put up the argument in the first place is credential enough to be a member of the AH. Please don't go.

...

But hey, feel free to ignore me. What do I know; I'm 3 years younger than you and therefore have far less experience of the world. I'm not qualified to comment. <Very tongue-in-cheek. Please everyone note that I'm not being vitriolic. Yet> And ignore the stuff about being human. You are human to me: on occasions you are pedantic, irritating and insufferably certain of your correctness. I like you.

The Earl

http://www.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=77618

My previous words on this subject are above, but I felt the need to summarise this into one thread. Lit has always been my foremost forum for debate and even-handed viewpoints - it's a liberal haven, where most people respect the other's opinions (except over some guys called Bush and Kerry, don't know who they are) and have what I would perceive as a 'fair' view of the world.

We disagree and sometimes get quite nasty about our disagreements, but I can't imagine it would be acceptable for Pear's point of view to be dismissed because she's Latina. No-one would accept it if someone scoffed at Vella's opinion because she enjoys BDSM. Or claimed Svenska's posts were invalid because she was Swedish. So why is it acceptable to tell JoeWordsworth to 'act like a man' or to 'grow up and see sense'?

Most people on here have been fair about the fact that I am a young man and have not taken the viewpoint that I know little or nothing about life and therefore can't contribute to debate. However, some of the comments that have been dealt out to Joe have been appalling. Real below the belt stuff.

If he (or I for that matter) annoys you, tell him he's a wanker. If you think he's wrong, explain why. There are very few cases of black-and-white, right-and-wrong in this world and by telling him that his POV is somehow weakened by his age degrades your argument.

I have seen some defence of "It's not because you're young, it's because you're immature. I don't say the same thing to The Earl, so I'm not being prejudiced." I've said stupid things. I've done dumb stuff on the board and been slapped (rightly) down for it. Everyone has. But I have the luxury of having never put up my picture here, so my persona stays very separate from my real-life 20 year oldness. Joe's picture is constantly reminding you that he is a young man and it offers you a cheap shot when you can't be bothered to argue.

I will take this opportunity to apologise: to Joe for dragging him up as the poster-boy for one of my major pet-peeves and to anyone who is offended, annoyed or enraged by my unedited and vitriolic rant. This isn't aimed at anyone or any people in particular and I am aware that it doesn't seem like that big a problem to many. But it incenses me beyond belief that anyone can be disregarded or put down because of their age.

Would you like someone to wrap up their argument against you by saying you can't offer an opinion because you're black/white/hispanic/gay/straight/English/American/whatever?

[/rant]

The Earl

 

[Guest]

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I love the youngins too.

Sweetie, when you hit a certain age, you feel like a sage and must use your advanced years to prove you were young once and remember having that same fire and enthusiasm. I find myself always in a group where I am the oldest physically but the youngest mentally. Somewhere it all balances out. It will here too.

Thanks for posting and reminding me I was young once.

~A~

Now respect your elders young man and cross me over the street to the bar.

 

[oggbashan]

I remember...

...when I was 18 and starting my career.

I was given responsibilities that were rare for someone of my then age and are even rarer now.

I made mistakes. I learned from them. I listened to others who were wiser, more experienced and older - in that order - even though they were supposed to be working for me.

I used my judgement about what advice to take and what to ignore. I still made mistakes yet tried not to repeat the same ones.

I still make mistakes now. My posts are sometimes ignored as irrelevant. Why not? I think my posts are ignored BECAUSE they are irrelevant not because I am old.

What I learned when I was 18 and I am still learning now is that it is very easy to upset people with the wrong word, the wrong response and by being too dogmatic about an opinion.

Does it matter? Not really.

During WWII people of The Earl's and Joe's ages were given responsibilities that meant life or death to those beside them. Age was irrelevant in war.

I cannot accuse Joe of anything except lack of tact. That can be acquired and does not necessarily come with age. I know some very rude people over 60 who upset almost anyone they come into contact with. I know people like that of all ages. I also know children who have a wonderful sense of tact.

If I want advice I ask someone who can help. I don't ask 'How old are you?'. If that person can provide me with the knowledge or information I need: then they are the person I ask. This week I asked a 8 or 9 year-old girl the way to her headmaster's office. Her directions were clear and direct. Should I have waited for a teacher?

Joe has been criticised. I think some of the criticism is justified and some of it is not. I can think of some who came to the AH and were attacked far more directly than Joe has been - usually for a good reason such as racial bias.

Youth is a self correcting condition that does not disqualify anyone from expressing their opinion.

Og

 

[dr_mabeuse]

No one wants to be told that their feelings or ideas aren’t valid, for whatever reason. It’s probably one of the worst things you can say to someone, and it’s kind of funny, because one of the qualities that I’ve learned with age is tolerance. I don’t have to jump into every discussion or be right in every argument. I can accept that things look different to different people and not feel compelled to proseletyze or convert them over to my personal point of view. In a large part, I think tolerance and forebearance are a decent working definition of maturity.

There’s a lot to be said for youth, of course, but there’s a lot to be said for age too, a lot more than you might expect given the strong youth-bias of the culture (although I think that’s changing.) There’s a depth and mellowness that comes with experience and life’s inevitable losses and disappointments that simply can’t be taught. I look back at a lot of what I thought when I was 21 and a lot of it was right on the money, but a lot of it was simply misguided and naïve. When I was younger there was basically only one way to look at things--my way—and I was wrilling to fight about it at the drop of a hat. That’s a sign of youth. and it’s no longer the case for me. I can live with what they call cognitive dissonance, and I no longer demand logical or even emotional consistency from anyone. I can look at some of the pronouncements on the board and just shrug and move on. To each his own.

The thing is, when you come to differences in the views of youth and maturity, there’s no way you’re going to convince anyone of your experiences by talking. Everyone has to live it through for themselves. That’s the way life works. I think people who have reached a real level of maturity realize this, and tend to turn away from the “Wait till you’re older” kind of argument. Not that it’s an invalid argument, just that it’s not a very effective or convincing one.

---dr.M.

 

[cantdog]

Maturity

Age is only very generally linked to maturity. People who make the sort of argument the Earl deplores are not mature, just old.

You can't judge maturity in any given person, at all, by just their chronological age. Ask an emancipated minor. To say that is at least ignorant, and usually puerile.

Dead on, Earl, and then some. Zoot says the same from the other end of the stage. To say, "She's fifteen, for God's sake!" is to give a person a general idea , but if you have to deal with her, you ought to find out what kind of fifteen she is. Some might as well be twelve, others have more wisdom than their parents have gotten living more than twice as long.

If age were all there was to it, the precambrian rocks would be running the planet. You have to be alert enough and introspective enough to actually benefit from your time here, or you will learn nothing.

 

[TheEarl]

I will also apologise for the long-windedness and general weirdness of the rant too. I'm moving twice in the space of a couple of days and that post was straight from the heart to the mouth and out onto the keyboard with no access to the brain for editing. Sorry if I repeated myself or made my points in a befuddled way.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

 

[Lauren Hynde]

My arguments have never been publicly dismissed because of my age (I'm 21, was 18 when I joined Lit), and I'm glad it never happened, or I promise I wouldn't have been as tame on my rant(s) as you were, The.

 

[Guest]

Mostly I appreciate Mab.'s post above.

At my age I cannot help but judge someone by theirs. It's not that I believe youth equals lack of wisdom, education, maturity, what have you - or vice versa; the judgment comes from my hard-won personal experience and raising children to adulthood. I think I have an authority in this, others may not agree.

However, I never mean to demean anyone by making a point of their youth. I do believe I've always qualified my statements.

Just to clarify, I am not apologizing.

Perdita

(vs. Pear cos this post is addressed to all)

 

[gauchecritic]

Why do I always get the feeling that when The mentions the age thing he's referring to me?

Actually there is a point (and I don't come to it all that often in any walk of life) when the only argument left is "you are young and can't understand". (the reverse is also true if memory serves)

When it gets to that point then there is no more discussion to be had, because it's true. More accurately the phrase would be "you can't fully appreciate what I'm saying because you aren't me, and I can't explain my life to you." Which is also true and valid.

Other phrases which are probably equally annoying in the age debate:

You'll learn when you get to my age.

You've forgotten what it's like to be my age.

When you're older you won't be so rash.

You've lost all your passion with age.

Go away little boy.

Go away old man.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

 

[impressive]

HOWEVER...some never learn. I know some parents who haven't a clue.

And MANY, MANY politicians!

 

[Guest]

 

[Lauren Hynde]

At my age I cannot help but judge someone by theirs. It's not that I believe youth equals lack of wisdom, education, maturity, what have you - or vice versa; the judgment comes from my hard-won personal experience and raising children to adulthood. I think I have an authority in this, others may not agree.

You may judge whoever you want by age, and I'm fine with that.

I know I do judge people by the most arbitrary traits. Avatars, user-names, word choices, phrasal constructions. I am qualified and can judge anyone with regards to something as irrelevant to the questions at hand as the aesthetic layout of their posts with the same authority as you judge others by their age. It's my prerogative.

But to even mention it during a discussion of any kind is something that I just won't stand for. It's disrespectful, patronising, and, in my mind, a 100% certain backlash.

 

[Guest]

 

[impressive]

well.duh

Now who's being demeaning?

Don't tell me you be one of them thar intellechual snobs!

 

[Lauren Hynde]

well NATURALLY someone with an openshirt would say THAT!

Stuff it, pen-boy

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

 

[TheEarl]

Why do I always get the feeling that when The mentions the age thing he's referring to me?

Gauche: To be honest, apart from that one time when I got in an argument with you over something silly which I'd said (can't actually remember what it was, just remember it was about the same time I accidentally insulted BridgetKeeney. Decided to make my apologies and leave lit for a week before I insulted anyone else!) I don't think you and I have ever come to harsh words. Certainly can't remember you mentioning the age thing.

Only person who I can think of who's done it over my age was Svenska (name-and-shame) and she did it solely in retaliation to being called Sven. So turn about's fair play.

The Earl

PS. Gauche - if you can remember what I said to get our argument started ages and ages ago, can you PM it to me. I'm curious now.

 

[Guest]

Lauren, I completely get what you're saying, but a lot of us old gits (I am 31 - which is old to anyone under the age of 21. Try living with THAT!) can't help but make snap judgements about people based on the age they seem, not their actual chronological age.

You are a fine example of this. The first time I found out your age I could not believe it! I honestly did have you down as the same age as me, if not older. You are not the stereotypical 21 year old. Who is stereotypical of their age?

In my late teens to very early twenties I remember being told, by various people, "just wait 'til you get a bit older", "make the most of your youth, it doesn't come back".

Bollocks!

Hell it doesn't! I feel younger now than I did when I was 21. I have lived a bit, been through some tough times, got married, had kids, seen a bit of the world, worked a full time job for quite a few years, etc, etc. I used to be boring. I now believe I got old before my time, because I wanted to "grow up". I've gone in reverse now and am most definitely in the prime of my life. I am enjoying myself more now than I did in my twenties, largely because I know how to and partly because I have some points of reference.

Roll on 40.

Lou

 

[Guest]

I was trying to give a thoughtful and honest response above. I see there are strong feelings about age as a point of reference. Feelings count more to me than logic. I will take my own advice - no more age comments from me. Peace.

Perdita

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Age dosen't neccessarily confer wisdom, and you can be very young but also wise. The one thing age dose confer is experience and if you are eighteen, no matter how much you have done with your life, you can't have 30 or 40 years of experience behind you.

Experience dosen't neccessarily confer wisdom either, but it defintely gives a different perspective to things. It seems to me in this forum that it is that lack of perspective that is being sited more so than a lack of wisdom or maturity when age is mentioned.

Things I viewed one way at eighteen, I view differently at thirty something. I don't doubt they will look very different at fifty.

-Colly