"against our will, comes wisdom..."

[Shankara20]

"Here there be Monsters" - this is about the bad sort of pain and suffering.....


“In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.” AESCHYLUS

I may have heard that quote before, but it never registered. Not so long ago I was watching a film about Robert F. Kennedy and he made that quote the evening of the assassination of Martin L. King Jr. The program profiled the pain and despair RFK dealt with following the death of his brother. Watching his drop into darkness and the struggle to regain his footing can be seen as a model of hope for a nation struggling with so much pain in the 60's only to confront another assassination, King, and soon to deal with one more yet to come, RFK's.

The quote by Aeschylus brought up personal memories of my struggles with death of loved ones and betrayal and abandonment. I now know much more about the world, about people, about love, about compassion and about being of help where I can.

That last part, "the awful grace of God" speaks volumes and brings sorrow every time I read it for all the pain we all suffer. Many here have spoken about the struggles they encounter - I wonder, do some of you find any wisdom eventually from that suffering?

 

[graceanne]

I've always been told that you gain wisdom from the bad things that happen - I don't know if I've ever taken the time to think 'what did I learn from this'?

I guess the biggest bit of wisdom I've learned is that I can make it through anything. I've been abandoned, abused, neglected, and betrayed in ways that no one here knows or will ever know. But I still laugh, I still love, and I make it through every day. That means I won, right?

 

[coy_one]

I've always been told that you gain wisdom from the bad things that happen - I don't know if I've ever taken the time to think 'what did I learn from this'?

I guess the biggest bit of wisdom I've learned is that I can make it through anything. I've been abandoned, abused, neglected, and betrayed in ways that no one here knows or will ever know. But I still laugh, I still love, and I make it through every day. That means I won, right?

Absolutely it does - because I've learned the same and have been through living hell myself.

 

[FelonyFlats]

"Wise to the Will"

"Pain,is only Weakness,leaving the Soul"...

 

[Cheshire D]

If we're gonna quote....here's one of my favorites.

"That which does not kill you makes you stronger."

My father says it, and he gets it from his martial arts instructor. Where he got it, I don't know...they may be talkling about physical death, I think that you can die emotionally or spiritually as well....I mean, it's pretty dang obvious that there are some events that while they may not hurt you physically, they hurt pretty badly in other ways. But once you get over them, you learn from them and you grow stronger internally so that if it happens again...you don't hurt as badly.

Wow, that was kinda rambling.

 

[graceanne]

.

"That which does not kill you makes you stronger."

I think, at times, I'd have prefered to be dead than stronger. *shrugs*

 

[HottieMama]

I think, at times, I'd have prefered to be dead than stronger. *shrugs*

You and me both. i have to sit here and wonder WHEN exactly will the universe feel that i am strong enough?!?!

 

[Shankara20]

You and me both. i have to sit here and wonder WHEN exactly will the universe feel that i am strong enough?!?!

I think that is referenced in the "pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart" part -

it just feels like it is relentless and never-ending

 

[poppy1963]

"Here there be Monsters" - this is about the bad sort of pain and suffering.....


“In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.” AESCHYLUS

I may have heard that quote before, but it never registered. Not so long ago I was watching a film about Robert F. Kennedy and he made that quote the evening of the assassination of Martin L. King Jr. The program profiled the pain and despair RFK dealt with following the death of his brother. Watching his drop into darkness and the struggle to regain his footing can be seen as a model of hope for a nation struggling with so much pain in the 60's only to confront another assassination, King, and soon to deal with one more yet to come, RFK's.

The quote by Aeschylus brought up personal memories of my struggles with death of loved ones and betrayal and abandonment. I now know much more about the world, about people, about love, about compassion and about being of help where I can.

That last part, "the awful grace of God" speaks volumes and brings sorrow every time I read it for all the pain we all suffer. Many here have spoken about the struggles they encounter - I wonder, do some of you find any wisdom eventually from that suffering?

I and a few others were speaking to such in the Sex & Spirituality thread by mcopado. I am convinced that what you speak of is a very necessary part of this life in this realm for human beings to grow and progress into more refined attuned energies. "...wisdom through the awful grace of God..."

I don't think I have ever gained any "wisdom" through any other means...I believe one must feel the pain of something (the dark side even of the brightest star) to have any sense of true knowledge of it and that both energies to both extremes exist in all things. Most times I don't want to acknowledge that darkness really but I approach it anyway...as I deem it necessary. This is why I watched the "beheadings" by the terrorrists in the ME.

 

[graceanne]

I think that is referenced in the "pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart" part -

it just feels like it is relentless and never-ending

Have you ever been at a point that nothing bads happening, and been terrified, cause you know it's the calm before the storm?

 

[Shankara20]

Have you ever been at a point that nothing bads happening, and been terrified, cause you know it's the calm before the storm?

not really - I have generally been thankful for the respite in those moments...

 

[Shankara20]

I don't think I have ever gained any "wisdom" through any other means...

I tend to agree with your full post.

the equation, as I see it, is sorta like this

knowledge + feeling (often painful) = wisdom

and for me, some persistent sweet melancholy

 

[JMohegan]

That last part, "the awful grace of God" speaks volumes and brings sorrow every time I read it for all the pain we all suffer. Many here have spoken about the struggles they encounter - I wonder, do some of you find any wisdom eventually from that suffering?

There is wisdom in logic and reason. In learning about cause and effect.

Whether the suffering was caused by one's own behavior or the behavior of others, if there is a rational basis for understanding what happened, and why, then wisdom may be gleaned from the experience.

But there is no wisdom to be found in the random, the senseless, the unforeseen and unforeseeable. By definition, such events occur without reason or pattern. One can not become wise from such things. One can only endure.

I do not believe that a sentient God exists, but of course I do not know. Everyone is just guessing on that particular issue.

But if He/She/It does exist, I do know one thing. "Grace" is most assuredly not the word I would ascribe to his/her/its M.O.

 

[poppy1963]

Have you ever been at a point that nothing bads happening, and been terrified, cause you know it's the calm before the storm?

I have felt that graceanne and at times, after a few drinks, have sobbed out the fear of it as the moments ticked on...BUT I will add that my anticipation of it was often worse than the experience and the end result was often worth it...it's funny how being "outside the box" (even a familiar one) either before or after being "inside" can seem a very different experience than it seemed inside at the time. I continue to learn this odd thing...much through my anticipation of cancer treatment, the actual experience of it and now the memory of it.

When I step back and look, I see 3 often very different opinions/observations/experiences. The most interesting one is that "after the fact" the treatments feel like they were more difficult than they seemed during them. I am not sure if this is "real" or just how my mind protected me "during". All I know is, I don't want another year like that now...but yet I can honestly also say: I don't recall them being half as bad as I expected.

Odd, huh? We are such complexities sometimes...(when we are not being simpletons.)

 

[Shankara20]

"Grace" is most assuredly not the word I would ascribe to his/her/its M.O.

Your post, JM, reminds me that I read the Aeschylus quote more as metaphor and poetry then as a statement of fact - I did not make that point earlier. Away from its use in poetry I have huge personal problems with the word "Grace" as used in most contexts as I do with the word "Hope".

I will expound is asked.

I agree that logic and reason are challenged by the random, the senseless, the unforeseen and unforeseeable. Finding a way to come to some sort of internal resolution with the pain, for me, brings a sort of personal wisdom about that nature of life - and, in my opinion, that wisdom is a uniquely personal experience - often almost impossible to articulate beyond being able to say "Yes, now I understand"

 

[Life_Noir]

If we're gonna quote....here's one of my favorites.

"That which does not kill you makes you stronger."

My father says it, and he gets it from his martial arts instructor. Where he got it, I don't know...they may be talkling about physical death, I think that you can die emotionally or spiritually as well....I mean, it's pretty dang obvious that there are some events that while they may not hurt you physically, they hurt pretty badly in other ways. But once you get over them, you learn from them and you grow stronger internally so that if it happens again...you don't hurt as badly.

Wow, that was kinda rambling.

Friedrich Nietzsche


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/

 

[nh23]

"Here there be Monsters" - this is about the bad sort of pain and suffering.....


“In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.” AESCHYLUS

I may have heard that quote before, but it never registered. Not so long ago I was watching a film about Robert F. Kennedy and he made that quote the evening of the assassination of Martin L. King Jr. The program profiled the pain and despair RFK dealt with following the death of his brother. Watching his drop into darkness and the struggle to regain his footing can be seen as a model of hope for a nation struggling with so much pain in the 60's only to confront another assassination, King, and soon to deal with one more yet to come, RFK's.

The quote by Aeschylus brought up personal memories of my struggles with death of loved ones and betrayal and abandonment. I now know much more about the world, about people, about love, about compassion and about being of help where I can.

That last part, "the awful grace of God" speaks volumes and brings sorrow every time I read it for all the pain we all suffer. Many here have spoken about the struggles they encounter - I wonder, do some of you find any wisdom eventually from that suffering?

I don't know that I have found wisdom..but I have found myself. The trials I went through in life made me who I am today. I had such a horrific childhood that today I'm happy just to have a home and a family and food on my table. I have a friend that grew up in a wonderful household and today he's terribly depressed. He always feels like life owes him more. He has a perfectly fine life now.. but he can't see that because he's never had it bad. So maybe I can say my pain has given me some wisdom. I know when I have it good because I have experienced life when it wasn't.

 

[JMohegan]

Your post, JM, reminds me that I read the Aeschylus quote more as metaphor and poetry then as a statement of fact - I did not make that point earlier. Away from its use in poetry I have huge personal problems with the word "Grace" as used in most contexts as I do with the word "Hope".

I will expound is asked.

Yes, please do. I would be interested in reading what you have to say, Shank.

I agree that logic and reason are challenged by the random, the senseless, the unforeseen and unforeseeable. Finding a way to come to some sort of internal resolution with the pain, for me, brings a sort of personal wisdom about that nature of life - and, in my opinion, that wisdom is a uniquely personal experience - often almost impossible to articulate beyond being able to say "Yes, now I understand"

If you tell me it is possible to find wisdom in the random & senseless, then I believe it is true.... for you.

But this type of wisdom is beyond my cognitive abilities. I simply can not grasp it.

Resignation to the ultimate nature of life, yes. Understanding of the point or purpose of that nature, no.

 

[shy slave]

deleted

 

[Shankara20]

If you tell me it is possible to find wisdom in the random & senseless, then I believe it is true.... for you.

But this type of wisdom is beyond my cognitive abilities. I simply can not grasp it.

Resignation to the ultimate nature of life, yes. Understanding of the point or purpose of that nature, no.

I sure do understand this - and I suppose for me, if I have any wisdom at all it could very well be called "resignation to the ultimate nature of life"

As to "understanding of the point or purpose of that nature" I have no frickin clue - in fact I have given up searching for that answer.

"Grace" - well, I do not buy the concept at all. All definitions I have found for "grace" go something like this "an undeserved gift (or blessing) given by the Divine (or God) necessary for your salvation". The "undeserved" part is the troubling part for me. So the next question for me is - if grace is an "undeserved gift" what do we call an "undeserved punishment (pain)". To date I have not found that word - so that means that we do not deserve the good things that come to us, but we do deserve the poop that comes our way - the Catholics called this the results of original sin - that is, the sin of just being born. I don't buy it at all.

"Hope" - my definition is a little on the dark side - Hope is an act of desperation by someone unable to deal with the circumstances of the present time and place. I use "potential" as my uplifting word once I do indeed see potential.

Tis a bit dark for some.

 

[poppy1963]

I don't know that I have found wisdom..but I have found myself. The trials I went through in life made me who I am today. I had such a horrific childhood that today I'm happy just to have a home and a family and food on my table. I have a friend that grew up in a wonderful household and today he's terribly depressed. He always feels like life owes him more. He has a perfectly fine life now.. but he can't see that because he's never had it bad. So maybe I can say my pain has given me some wisdom. I know when I have it good because I have experienced life when it wasn't.

Yup...that's about it in a nutshell...but my experience (as I suspect yours as well) has been more "layered" than a nutshell with it all...but that's it! I feel like I had been given a "privileged" life in many ways...not so grandly privileged that I rose above most...but middle class in the USA is damn privileged when it comes to life on this earth. I really had little to complain about and my head was in the sand on what most of the worlds' people were experiencing.

It was only "hard knocks" that got me to pay attention to the realities of life for most of us. There in is the wisdom...

I believe we are all connected and that our collective connection of energy is what we refer to as "God"...and that "God" lives and grows and refines us all as we continue to create and be created. So...there are the layers...lol.

 

[poppy1963]

deleted

*acknowledges first the original post and then the choice to delete...for whatever reasons*

 

[mcopado]

I do not believe that a sentient God exists, but of course I do not know. Everyone is just guessing on that particular issue.

But if He/She/It does exist, I do know one thing. "Grace" is most assuredly not the word I would ascribe to his/her/its M.O.

Hi poppy thought I might be interested in the discussion here.

I, in my vocation and here on lit get the "why do bad things happen" question all the time...here's my take on it..and God/the universe/gaia/the great punpkin's role...

God is not some anthropomorphic father figure sitting on a cloud doleing out winning lotteries to the deserving and lightning bolts to others based on some capricious whim of (his). God is the unifying principle of all good and love that underlies the universe. God is everything and in everything...(you can download my e-book for a better understanding of what I mean...

"Bad" things happen in this world because we live in a place where entropy exists, systems break down, people die, we get in car accidents, get our hearts broken, planes crash into buildings, tsunami's wipe out entire populations in an instant...Why? I dunno, maybe God created it this way to see how we'd react, or maybe for some other unfathomable plan...(I tend to think it is because this planet is our "school". The planet we live on doesn't really care whether we're a saint or a serial killer, eventually we die...(God doesn't really care if were a saint or a serial killer either GOD is love and loves and forgives us all equually when the time comes anyway)

Also there is no anthropomorphic devil character that causes people to do bad things either...THere's noone as equal or as powerful as God, because God is everything including you and me...But God gave us free will...including the free will to hate god and do nasty things toeach other...Saying the devil made me do it is a cop out from taking personal responsibilities for our choices and actions...

So anyway, since bad things happen, it really is OK, because God is present in those bad things to guide us through...to help us find grace in the smallest things, to help us overcome tragedy, and to remind us that that current bad thing, no-matter how insurmountable it may seem, is but a single chapter in the epic story of our lives, and that God is love. And how we choose to deal with those things is ultimatelyagain part of free will...


Thomas Moore calls Depression a gift...and a doorway to spirit...I should know, I had it through my 20's in fact was planning to kill myself on my 30th birthday..

Interestingly, in his book Care of the Soul he has a chapter called the "gifts of depression"...When I began my recovery I was given the book as a gift...I liked it until I hit that chapter...I tossed it against the wall yelling, "There no gift in my fucking depression." It laid in the corner of my living room for a year....then I picked it up and read it...he was right...

I wouldn't be on the spiritual path I'm on, if it wasn't for my depression....and stronger for having overcome it...

 

[graceanne]

Here's some quotes that always help me:

The Lord will never give you more than you and He can handle.

Blessed are they that morn, for they shall be comforted.

 

[Netzach]

I don't look at others and think "gee they have it easy" - I always assume ignorance on my part. I've lived among the "blessed" and marvelled at how messed up and sad those lives can be.

I know that adversity has taught me things I know. When I sit and dwell on how bad I have it, it becomes indulgent, I've had it so good. When I sit and dwell on how great I've had it, it becomes disingenuous - I've suffered a number of tragedies a lot of people never have to handle - deaths, diseases, losses, incalcuable mistakes and misunderstandings. But nobody's free from suffering, it just takes different forms.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/btg/btg85.htm