Affirmative action and diversification

[JMohegan]

Take the names and races out of it. When promotions, admissions to college, whatever, depend on test scores and past performance, send in the test scores and performance reports as anonymous numbered datafiles. Pick the person(s) to be promoted/admitted/whatthefuckever based on the best match of datafile to the position. If that means more blacks/whites/purples get into the desirable positions, so be it - they earned it.

But then, I'm more a Spock than a Kirk.

If you want to know what happens to a country in which quotas are considered taboo, and everyone pretends to be colorblind, check out the situation in France.

"In theory, at least, France follows the republican model of integration: once a person becomes a French citizen, they are equal before a state that is blind to colour, race and religion. Multiculturalism along the British model is, to many, a dangerous taboo. It is illegal to count the number of black people, north Africans and other minorities in France, or classify people according to ethnicity - all people should be equally French with no differentiation, the theory goes.

But in practice, the nation is not colour-blind. When France's black associations held their first annual meeting last year, American civil rights activists toured the run-down suburban housing estates and said discrimination reminded them of life in the US in the 1950s. One survey this summer found that three out of four companies preferred white to non-white workers. Black French students with African names have been advised to change their name to something 'more French' when applying for jobs. Discrimination has reached such a level that last year the government decreed that companies with more than 50 employees should use anonymous CVs for recruitment."

 

[JMohegan]

Also - if anyone is interested in the actual issues at hand in the Connecticut firefighter case, and is concerned that Fox "News" soundbites might not be telling the whole story, I highly recommend reading the dissenting opinion written by Justice Ginsburg.

 

[Netzach]

I really do think culturally we are pointing in a better direction overall. I think people five-ten-fifteen years my junior have a refreshing "you're kidding me" reaction to a lot of the prejudice that has informed our pasts. It's really important that history be remembered, but it's really encouraging on other levels for racial considerations to get a reaction of "that's just stupid" and not just from clueless white kids.

I don't think we're at the point where affirmative action can be pitched as a philosophy and a recruitment consideration, but I do think that quotas are harmful at this point, definitely. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "we want our fire department or our school board or our city council to look like our city" and with making that a goal.

 

[the captians wench]

When my current supervisor first came to my last store he made a comment on his first impression:

"All of the hispanics are in the kitchen, and all of the black females are infront of the customers"

His observation was pretty spot on. We had a great deal of hispanics, and well, they didn't speak much english. The grill was the only place we could put them, if we put them infront of a customer and they were asked a question that they didn't understand the customers got very unpleasent.

The other majority of our employees were black females from a varity of nationalities. (mostly different african nations and americans) They spoke fluent english, so it was logical to put them in service positions.

I didn't even notice this trend until he mentioned it. Then he went on to say that if a white kid came in to aply, they might change their mind because of the lack of white kids we had working there. But I look at the area we were in could easily explain this. My old store is in a rich subburb. While most of the customers were well off white people (I used to be shocked at the amount of real fur coats I saw in the winter), those kids get fed with a gold plated spoon, they just don't last long in restaraunt work.

 

[Homburg]

Based on the facts you presented here, you would have gotten the job *not* because you were Asian, but because he knew you as a person and liked you, and because of that, suggested that you apply for the position, knowing that you were a shoo-in because you had that one other factor in your favor.

Had he not known you, known your character and qualifications, *just* that you were Asian... do you think he still would have suggested you apply?

Yeah, he would've. He would've suggested it because they were desperate. Someone had filed an EEO complaint in regards to the lack of asian officers, and he was worried. So pretty much anything asian with a pulse, in marginally good shape, and with a clean record was being asked to apply.

The asian thing did not come up in conversation. He happened to notice my very Japanese middle name and asked me if I was asian. That is when he said what he did.

To an extent, I kick myself. His dept is a VERY good one to work for, with excellent benefits, and very solid pay for this area. And being buddy-buddy with the LT in charge of uniform patrol would not have been a bad thing. That was definitely one of those "opportunity is knocking" moments, and I did not answer. It just felt a little too weird, and a little too, well, "token".

I don't mind checking that box that says "asian" in hopes that it might just maybe get me a lil edge (it never has, to my knowledge), but knowing for a fact that that little box is what did it was just a bit too much for me.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Here in dear old Blighty, this issue is becoming completely polarised. We're now upwards of 70million people clinging to some very small rocks. The only city more densely populated than central London is Toyko. Rightly or wrongly, our immigration policy has made us the most attractive choice for countless thousands of immigrants, both legal and illegal. In the last year, for example, we discovered that we have a shortfall of some 500,000 school places. In the last year, live births to foreign mothers have risen 65%. Thise to British born mothers have risen 6.8%. We're in serious danger here of being over-run by people who bleed the system, send their money overseas and breed faster than native, average Brits. Immigration is keeping the minimum wage nearly 10% below inflation and contributing to the fact we have the highest working hours in Europe. There are countless ramifications and factors but one of the most distasteful is the government's determination to promote and martyr people of ethnic miniroty.

We have a 2 tier education system where people either trust in the state school system or send their kid for private education costing upwards of £5,000 per annum. Then, when their kids benefit from the smaller class sizes and better discipline of private schools, they discover that their university applications are less likely to succeed because unis dependent on government funding have a 'disadvantaged background' quota to fill, regardless of academic achievement. This inevitably means that students of colour are selected over and above affluent white students with better grades. So the parent's reward for working hard and funding their child's education is tarnished, as is the child's own academic achievement.

Also, I used to work in the NHS and still have a lot of friends in the nursing profession. The NHS in the uk simply would not operate without immigrant staff because not enough natives want jobs like nursing. The problem though, is that migrating staff are offered posts without them being available to native staff. Native staff have to scramble for the remaining posts, which are currently subject to budget cuts. The economic climate means that some women who would have left to have kids are not doing so and some who would have retired are not doing so. This leaves everyone clinging to their post with little hope of advancement. In addition, countries like India, The Philippines and parts of Africa are left with a serious shortfall of qualified staff, because they all want to work in the UK.

I tell people I'm scroungerist. I have issue with people who sit on benefits when they could work, whether they were born in Peckham or Pakistan. Nevertheless, the current NHS recruitment system strongly favours foreign staff because they'll work longer hours for less money. All this means newly qualified staff will have trouble finding jobs this summer, despite the fact they trained in this country for a job that few native Brits want.

 

[Netzach]

So to me, the issue is really that the employer is opportunistic and happy to pit immigrants against native born people to keep costs down.

Union time, not let's pick each other apart time.

It's a trick as old as work what the NHS is doing.

 

[minx1]

So to me, the issue is really that the employer is opportunistic and happy to pit immigrants against native born people to keep costs down.

Union time, not let's pick each other apart time.

It's a trick as old as work what the NHS is doing.

Absolutely. I've seen it happening first hand. Immigrant workers, maybe 100 of them, gathering outside a factory at 11pm. The manager comes out picks off half and they go in. They are being paid way below the minimum wage, have no idea of rights available to them but are so desperate for work they will pretty much do what they have to survive. Unfoirtunately what they don't see is that it also undermines the terms and conditions of the core workers....why give them a pay rise or overtime when its much cheaper to use migrant labour.

Part of the issue is definitely educationing these workers in terms of what they should be able to expect, but then if they demanded the same pay and conditions would they be as an attractive prospect to employers? I imagine not, because they are either the wrong colour, culture or have a different first language.

Its difficult.