Advice: BDSM or no? M/f with histories of abuse. All help welcome!

[applesgreen]

Hi guys,

I’m looking for a bit of serious advice concerning my relationship with my current girlfriend and the potential introduction of BDSM. Both of us were abused; my girlfriend was sexually abused by her mother for two years, and I was physically abused by my father on a weekly basis until I turned fourteen. She wants me to be dominant. Only the first third of this post is necessary. The last two thirds are history, in the interest of being helpful for those who might care. All comments are welcome. Please forgive me if my preconceptions of this culture lead me to step on toes or misrepresent it.

Our histories of abuse and her suggestion of BDSM probably make my question clear: she is interested in this lifestyle, but I’m wondering if this is a conscious choice on her part or a subconscious desire to have me fulfill a parental role. Meditations, free association work, building a support network, and seeking psychiatry have done little for her. What about listening to what she actually hinted toward the entire relationship? While my primary concern is her, I’m also curious for myself.

I’ve started this past week as a trial run. I’ve set rules for her to use good posture and positive body contact, and told her to journal thirty minutes daily. She has followed instructions amazingly well. She has also been in a better mood. Due to these changes, and likely more so her relatively recent realization of her abuse, there has been a marked improvement in cognition, too. On a Mensa IQ test, she scored 20 points higher than she did 8 months ago (107 to 129 [stats people could argue test to test variation, but 22 points is more than 1SD, pretty wicked stuff]). We also did learning curve games together in the past (I’m a bit of a dork). We’d randomly select 50 difficult words for each other and see how fast we could memorize their definitions, being tested once daily and studying for 15 minutes afterward. It used to take her close to three weeks, but this week she did it in four days… and I thought I was the smart one .

Meanwhile, she’s taken it upon herself to prove her submission outside the rules I established; four days ago she came to me on her knees with a big smile, handing me her work check, and calling me Master. This shocked me and made me uneasy. I told her to follow or dispute my rules, not create new ones. Now curious and concerned, I asked her how far she was interested in going. Her response sounded like TPE. Her boundaries were to keep the relationship between the two of us and not inflict much pain. My boundaries were more vanilla... which isn’t to say I just wanted my house clean I don’t want to venture into pain beyond nails and light biting, or any role playing where she acts the part of a younger girl or I play the role of a parent.

If this is pursued, it will be taken slowly. How would you suggest we do this, if at all? I’ve looked into the BDSM library threads, but my personal experience is limited. Any BDSM book or abuse survivor book suggestions? Many thanks.

Below is more history between us, optional but helpful:
---------------

My girlfriend was abused in a much more severe way than I was, and has had it control much of her life. Through the years of second and fourth grade, originally after having shattered her elbow and receiving reconstructive surgery, her mother kept her on pain killers and would enter her room at night. While my girlfriend lay there, and told herself “mommy wouldn’t do anything wrong,” her mother toyed with her and eventually inserted objects inside her. The helplessness of the situation has led her to seek helplessness in other places.

I gained some closure to my abuse after finally fighting back and hurting my father badly enough he decided not to touch me again. I realized violence was BS during the same year (14), and chose to not raise my voice (yelling, screaming, etc.) or start conflict. That lasted until recently, for a total of six to seven years. During this time I also took command of my life; I’m a pre-law major at an Ivy League university, I regularly read the bible, and I work out six times a week and eat on a strict and informed regimen. Generally, I control my life.

After we first moved in together, two years ago, she accepted the structure my way of life provided. I cooked for her, worked full time while attending college, and eventually she asked to work out with me. Her adoption of my life and melding her identity to mine concerned me. I suggested she spend more time with her friends, or pick up a few hobbies. As I dissolved the structured environment to allow her more personal freedom, she began to rebel. She began lying, masturbating and watching porn (something she had asked both of us to cut), eating junk food, and sharing intimate details of our life with her classmates. I brought these issues up while they were occurring, and she denied them until recently. My response was to transfer to school in New York, close to where she was originally from, so that she could be closer to her parents and friends, and have a stronger social network.

In NY things have been very bad indeed. Over this past Christmas she fooled around with one of her girlfriends, and had phone sex with strangers. When I found out, though not from her lips, I finally confronted her and asked her to get her own apartment nearby and see if she could arrange her life. I told her things would otherwise be as they had been. After the long discussion, she left and lived by herself for seven weeks. During this time, she; (1) had a threesome with two male strangers (and unsafe sex at that), (2) had phone sex from strangers met in chat rooms approximately 10 times weekly, (3) masturbated approximately 15 times weekly via her vibrator, (4) sent fully nude naked pictures of herself (via camera phone) to 45 strangers, (5) fooled around again with the same girlfriend, and (6) lied to me about all of this and honestly doesn’t remember all of it. On the home front, she; (1) Drank 9.8L of 80 proof alcohol (again, during a seven week period), (2) Ordered out five times per week, and (3) also lied to me about all of this. Many of these transgressions were poorly hidden, as if asking to be caught. Detailed records were kept in a journal she left around my house. Really, I wanted to stab the hell out of her and throw her over the balcony when I found out. Instead, I meditated for 24 hours. I felt the same way the next day, and slapped her. Not again. As time wore on I pieced together more information and finally asked her if she had been abused as a child. After a few minutes she began crying inconsolably and shared with me the story I just told you, which she had repressed. That was two months ago.

Many of her decisions have been influenced by her repressed memory of sexual abuse. She was probably attracted to me, in part, because I am stable and safe. The more freedom she was given, the more she consciously held it against me. The final actions of cheating were a cry for help. She felt she couldn’t control her own life, and I think, wanted to relive the structure of the early relationship where she had less an opportunity to screw up. She wanted to regain both the newness of the relationship and the lack of control associated with it. I think .

Now, before coping to the entire truth, she asked me to take her phone away and decide who she could talk with. She asked to give up control of several different pieces of her life. Then, this week, she asked what I thought of BDSM. She told me that the key to getting her life on track was to place her life more in my hands.

Before this suggestion, our sex life had been vanilla. She had suggested kinky ideas in the past that I’d shot down as misogynistic or degrading. She had regularly asked me to be more dominant as well. She had always been submissive socially and in bed. I had always been dominant socially and wanted to try sexually. I originally decided not to indulge. I’d been afraid of turning the act of making love into an act of sex, and worried that encouraging her fantasies in some facet would lead to deeper fantasies I would be even less willing to fulfill. After all that’s happened since, I’m more willing to try. Thanks for reading. Thoughts?

 

[oddity83]

I am not a head doctor, keep that in mind for the following. First off the fact theat you are willing to try is a good sign. Second if she wants this go for it, just keep an open line of dialog between you. As for her past abuse, do not dwell on it you can not change it, and yes people that have had a strict lock down past might still need it for a long time. Third if you wish to keep going on this path please remeber to step back eveery once and a while and look and think about whats going from a outside prespective. Good luck and I hope this helps.

 

[Netzach]

It's good to want to help your partner.

It's good to want to guide your submissive toward things that are better for her, better for you, and better for your relationship.

It's not so good to get roped into being someone's therapist when you live with them and are sexually involved.

Even therapists don't usually do therapy on their partners, they get another therapist involved. There are many good solid reasons behind this. I would keep this in mind as it seems to me you are skating on that ice a bit.

 

[Quint]

Well said, Netz.

I feel for you, buddy. You're obviously very bright and your intentions are very well-meant. I see a lot of my fiancee and dominant partner in you--back when he too had a partner who wanted him to take all control from her life and be responsible for everything. You know what it is? Copping out. There is genuine submission and there is the inability to deal with life. Your lady sounds, without a doubt in my mind, like the latter. I've been in both places, and while it's a HUGE rush to give up control of one's own happiness to a partner, it is ultimately ephemeral and empty. "True happiness comes from within," blah blah blah, but honestly, you're just providing her a crutch to keep her from life.

I'm sorry that therapy has not worked for her thus far, because it really is the best advice I can offer. Just understand that whatever happens, it's not your fault. It's her life. Hope that helps and please do keep me posted on what occurs.

 

[pandoravampire]

Hello firstly, and thankyou for the background info.

I see a abusive history as irrelevant in bdsm. Irrelevant in anything come to that, providing, your with a survivor of abuse.

Your partner seems to have a way to go before this. Clearly remains in victim mode and as such, will create unconsciouly, a pattern of abuse to continue.

"Theraping" a loved one is NOT POSSIBLE. You clearly have the intellect to understand this, but do you have the common sense not to try?

Having said that, there maybe areas of intro that are safest for you both. But if your just starting out, and she wants TPE? blimey, thats fast! Its also probably fantasy. What we think about, pre bdsm as a fantasy, when we get to reality, can be vastly different ive found.

TPE is a two way street. You have to want that too, not just her. Sure, your dominant side is going to develop some, but as a starting point?

There is a deep down grounded feeling when a sub is submitting, that is intrinsicly right, to be controlled, is a illusion. It is really the sub that is controlling her own behaviour in response to your wishes.
A slave that seeks TPE is a different animal entirely.
Both need to come to this in the best possible psyche health they can to gain most from the journey.

As a survivor of abuse, id say go ahead, go slow, and build your repetoire of play cautiously, and see how you both respond when a hot button is pushed.

As a cognative behavioural therapist, id say DONT mess with what you do not understand.

As a Dom, just like a Dr, your first thought should be 'to do no harm'.

good luck to you both
pandoravampire

 

[Tollo]

Hi Applesgreen, welcome to the forum. You have posted a really serious question, one that will elicit a lot of thought around here I am sure.

BDSM or no? hmmm... No.

Honestly, I think that it is possible to be drawn to D/s relationships for the wrong reasons. This is fairly obvious when it comes to Doms, and though you will not find as many discussions about it, I would say that the same thing goes for subs.

From what you have said, it sounds as though your SO has been engaged in a lot of self-destructive behavior recently. It is possible that for her, submission is just another form of self destructive behavior. If so, then BDSM is not a healthy life style for her.

More than anything else, perhaps, it is the fact that all of this has happened so recently that makes me feel that BDSM is not a wise move for the two of you at this point. Your girlfriend needs to come to terms with her past and to heal. That will take a lot of work and time. I just do not see how she could have come to terms with such deep personal problems so quickly. BDSM might seem like a cure to her, but it could just be a distraction. The fact that she has taken to submission so quickly and thoroughly suggests manic enthusiasm, or a kind of desperation. I can imagine such a person becoming just as quickly and thoroughly dissatisfied with the the idea of BDSM.


To you, on the other hand, I would recommend that you take a long hard look at the relationship as a whole. If I have understood you, some time after this past Christmas you asked your girlfriend to move out in order to get her life together. It sounds like her behavior went from decidedly bad to worse. So why are you still involved (and living?) with her? I can tell that you care for her a lot, but you must be honest with yourself about how much you are willing and able to deal with.

Take time to work through all of this. BDSM can be a deeply personal experience. Even a "healthy" or "well adjusted" individual will often find that it requires difficult and painful self examination. Being a good Dom is always difficult for this reason. In the hands of a very talented Dom, I can imagine that BDSM could be therapeutic, but it is not going to simply solve her problems. Ultimately only she can make that happen.

Tollo

 

[Jay Davis]

First off, I want to support Tollo's comments.

A lot of BDSM folks are abuse survivors. I was not personally abused, but in the past couple of years, I have come to see how my sexuality as a straight male submissive was very much shaped by my relationships with my parents, and theirs with each other (at least as I perceived that relationship as a child). Through therapy, I am gaining the tools necessary to finally prosper in all aspects of my life, not just in my relationships, but it's been a long journey. I think that my need for D/s is a by-product of things that went haywire in my childhood, rather than a cause of them.

I've always had submissive tendencies, long before I knew that BDSM even existed. NOT understanding those tendencies and myself in general led me to select a whole bunch of wildly unhealthy romantic relationships. Even when I first ventured into real-life BDSM, I did so without having a firm handle on my mental state as a whole. I had been depressed for most of my adult life, and submitting made me feel satisfied, safe and fulfilled for the first time in decades. But that feeling was fleeting, and the need recreate it over and over led me into a couple of situations where I scared myself pretty badly. As a result, I pulled back from D/s for a while, and in the time between then and now, sought therapy to deal with my entire mental health picture. It is only recently that I have begun to slowly re-enter the relationship game, as it were.

My point is, it sounds to me very much like your partner is seeking a D/s relationship because it feeds certain of her needs. But I also suspect very strongly, based on the self-destructiveness of the behavior that you describe, that she has a long way to go in healing from her abused past. What D/s offers her right now is a way to abdicate responsibility for her own health, safety, and emotional well-being, dumping it instead on a dominant. The very best this can be is a band-aid; far more likely, it's an addictive crutch that puts her at risk of doing serious harm to herself, not just physically, but also emotionally.

Based on my own experience, my advice to her would be to find the professional help she needs to heal. It sounds to me like she's emotionally locked at the age she was when she was abused, and hasn't grown any further. Apparently, when something goes deeply awry in our childhoods, we can essentially stop growing up at that moment. If this is the case here, you're dealing with a very damaged 9-year-old in the body of a grown woman.

Whatever therapist she's been working with apparently isn't the right one, so she should find another and try again. (This is not intended to disparage her current or past therapists--the perfect therapist for one patient might be totally ineffective working with a different patient.) She shouldn't attempt to enter any D/s relationship--and quite possibly any romantic relationship at all--until she's healed and matured enough to take care of herself. If she's not ready to be responsible for herself, she's sure as hell not responsible enough to make informed decisions about trusting her health and safety to someone else, no matter how much doing so feeds the desperate need inside her.

She's probably got years of healing before she's ready for a healthy, adult relationship. Odds are, she's probably always going to respond sexually as a submissive--no amount of therapy is going to change the way her lizard brain functions. (By "lizard brain," I mean that instinctive, non-verbal, primitive portion of our brain that governs our sexuality.) Therapy hasn't "cured" me of my submissive sexuality; instead, it's given me the toolset to handle that aspect of myself safely and responsibly. I had a couple of close calls before that therapy that convinced me that I wasn't ready to indulge my submissive sexuality safely, and which were part of the reasons I sought therapy.

You need to think long and hard about pursuing any sort of romantic relationship with this woman at this time, let alone a D/s one. It sounds to me like she's trying to manipulate you into being responsible for her, so that she doesn't have to be. She's trying to make you into her therapist and her parent at the same time, though she may deny it, or perhaps not even realize it. This is ultimately unhealthy for the both of you, and any relationship built on this kind of foundation is doomed to end badly...possibly disastrously.

 

[Marquis]

This topic and all its responses kick ass in a way that this forum has not in a long time.

Applesgreen, I hope you stick around my brother, because you posted such quality shit that I am going to take a cold shower to try and shake off this high so I can give you a proper response.

 

[graceanne]

I also think that she's using BDSM as a 'cop out'. From what I'm reading (and as usual, I reserve the right to be 110% wrong) it sounds like she has no self control, and she feels that it's your responsibility to provide it for her. It also sounds like she's using her abuse as an excuse for doing things she knows she shouldn't. Most of the people on this board have been abused, myself included.

What I know is this: I was not responsible for what happened to me, but I am responsible for how I react to it. I am not reponsible for my mother and fathers actions, but I am responsible for mine.

I can choose to sleep around, and do drugs and things like that, but I am an adult, and those choices are my decision, and my fault. I am allowing what happened to rule over me. Or I can choose to end the cycle HERE, and make what I think are the right decisions. I can choose to excercise self control over my life and change the pattern, or I can choose to become another statistic.

My mother once said that I was abused, she was abused, her father was abused, and his father was abused. So who's to blame? If it's not her fault that she abused me, cause she was abused, then is it her father's fault for abusing her? Or is it his fathers fault? The blame is endless, it's always someone's fault.

Anyway, this is a side rant, and a bit off the topic, so back on topic.

I can tell you love her, and I woudln't be surprised if she loves you, too. I just don't know if I think that a TPE is a good idea for you and her. It'd be another way for her to hide from reality, another way to avoid dealing with it. I think you should move slowly, like you are. She might really need some structure, but she also needs to deal with her issues and her choices.

 

[Marquis]

OK, let's do this shit. I am feeling very passionate about this topic, and you'll have to forgive any lack of clarity on my part because I'm a little fucked up.

First, I want to answer the age old question of abuse and BDSM that you posed rather eloquently.

My feelings are no different than many, and since you seem to show some familiarity with BDSM I would assume you've heard them before. Your past is for all intents and purposes inconsequential in your pursuit of BDSM.

Allow me to show my work. Think of it this way, there are essentially three ways to imagine the origin of our desires:

a) Our environment/experiences, i.e. those things external

or

b) Our "character", our intrinsic qualities, our soul

or

c) some combination of the two (my money's here).


If A is the case, then all of us BDSMers were at some point influenced towards these needs. If that indeed is the case, then why should some sources of influence be more valid than others? Every mind perceives life differently. Some people are discouraged by hardships, others are inspired by it.

To look at it another way, think of a given population in terms of sets. In this set, there will be a subset of people that were abused. There will also be a subset of people who are into BDSM. If there was no shared people between these sets, that in and of itself would be peculiar. Now, whether or not there is an unnatural abundance of shared people in this set is a hard question to answer. I've heard many people experienced in BDSM say that this is not the case, empirically.

Let's not take their word for a moment though. Functionally, what difference would it make? I know this is like the Venn diagram from hell, but I don't know how else to explain this. Take another set, of people who like to play Daddy/daughter. Now another set, of people that were molested by their father. Now, it can be assumed that the two sets will be neither mutually exclusive nor collectively exhaustive, but even within the set of shared people you could theoretically break it down further. The people who were molested by daddy and like daddy play BECAUSE of it, and the people who were molested by daddy and like daddy play in SPITE of it.

Obviously, if B (intrinsic need for D/s) is the case, then the events of our lives had no bearing on the existence of our needs.

Now, this isn't to say that both of your history's will not affect your relationship. Of course they will, they will affect every aspect of your life, insomuch as you let it. It is often difficult to seperate our D/s needs from our more base needs, because we're generally not taught to think in terms of D/s.

You see, if I may be so bold, I think the old abuse and D/s question is a common copout for another question. I think by the sheer number of people who have experienced some form of abuse, it is a conveniently tangible way to articulate a deeper question that often burns in the soul of those of us who follow this calling. Is BDSM morally reprehensible?

The answer is; yes or no. There are 6 Billion people on this planet, all with our own calling, whether we heed it or not. Everyday we are given choices between good and evil, filtered through 6 Billion different lives, different minds. For any vocation, there is going to be a right and wrong way to pursue it.

In case life wasn't hard enoudh, this line can get particularly blurry with D/s and S&M.

You see, something that is very confusing about BDSM culture is the words we use. When we say Sadism and Masochism, we are using them in a context that almost invalidates their meaning. It took me pathetically long to figure this out, if I have yet, but Sadism in a BDSM context refers to inverted masochism. Likewise, Masochism refers to inverted sadism. The masochist revels in the sadistic pleasure her partner extracts from him/her and vice versa.

To answer another question you posed, it is this interlocking dance of desire that is the very soul of making love, in my opinion. I'm convinced that BDSMers never talk about this because it simply isn't hot. Sort of a proverbial condom reach, taking us out of our headspace. The bottom wants to believe the top is taking every liberty, "doing their worst" and extracting every bit of pleasure possible. The top wants to believe the bottom is offering everything, content with having their needs completely disregarded and offering every bit of pleasure possible. The only thing they're right about is the pleasure part.

Let's talk about one of my favorite things, assfucking. Most subs like anal sex, even the ones that don't. Many bottoms enjoy the masochism of anal sex because they enjoy the painful sensations. Now, is it really masochism if they're enjoying it? Why isn't it just pleasure? After all, Scotch is still delicious even though it doesn't taste like a peach. Then there are those that are overwhelmed by the painful sensations and tolerate it for their partner. These bottoms often come to be just as attached to anal sex, through emotional masochism. They love suffering for their partner. Generally, if a bottom doesn't take emotional or physical pleasure from it, they just don't do it.

Then there is the other masochism. The desire that, for whatever reason, makes a person really want to hurt themselves. This desire can put you in terrible positions to be abused. It's often seen in those with low self esteem. It is anger turned inwards, and it is often the desire that makes people cut themselves or even kill themselves.

I often joke with my submissive that I can't understand why she's with me. I am extremely demanding, damn intolerant and brutally honest about everything. I ask why she puts up with it, but I already know the answer. She loves putting up with it. She loves the way I treat her, and she loves that I love treating her that way. I've gotten her to do things she never, ever thought she would do, and I know the little cunt is getting moist just reading this sentence.

This is what BDSM is all about. Building bonds through mutually shared experiences.

But the same part of me that makes me a good sadist, a good Dom, tempts me to be an evil sadist, an evil Dom. Particularly when playing so convincing an act as we do, it is easy to masquerade as one and truly be the other. You can even fool yourself if you're not careful.

This is something I struggle with constantly. I love the wicked part of me that has allowed me to get closer to women in my life, but the desire to use my other sadism is certainly present. There are times when I want to really hurt people. I want to use my sexuality to truly hurt a woman, emotionally or physically. I have done this many times in the past, with young masochists, confused about their own desires and unable to make the extrication I've been talking about.

Why do I want to do this? Who knows. I wasn't beaten by my father. I have my own reasons for anger. I moved too often to build lasting friendships until highschool. My step-father was emotionally abusive. My father has always been very emotionally detached from me. My only real family was my mother and sisters, who were all taken from me when I was 17 years old. Unfortunately, I could go on and on.

I guess it is safe to say I'm pretty fucked up, and I could benefit from some therapy myself. I've been really afraid to get it for a long time, but I am going to try again soon and hopefully I am ready.

Doing the right thing can seem extremely daunting in the face of so much temptation. So often, we try to relieve ourselves of responsibility by trying to do nothing. Every once in a while, the pressure of being a good Dom will be overwhelming and I will claim to no longer be a Dom. Hollow words of course, because the truth is we don't get to choose who or what we are. There are many days I wish I wasn't a Dom. Hell, most of the superficial perks of being a Dom (being obeyed, great head) I could probably get without being a Dom at all.

However none of that changes the fact that I am a person who was chosen to lead, and I will lead towards the light or I will lead towards the darkness. I once asked a Rabbi friend of mine what it meant when Jews say they are the chosen people. He said it is like a nest of baby eagles. At some point they must learn to fly and the mother eagle will grab one and throw it out of the nest. It is of course terrified but hopefully it learns to flap its wings and save itself. The others, having watched the chosen eagle, are given a beacon of hope, or despair. The Rabbi said that God chose the Jews to suffer so that all of Man could benefit.

Those of us who are chosen possess a special energy. There are many that will see what I'm saying as arrogance, but I know that you know what I'm talking about. People recognize this energy, and they covet it. People are drawn to you, in love or in fear. It is up to you how you use this power.

People will always follow you. Where will you lead them?

 

[Quint]

Take me, you brilliant bastard.

 

[Netzach]

Or you could be cursed, like Cassandra and be completely right and no one will ever listen.

 

[Pure]

apples,

it's very tempting to want to 'fix' one's partner, esp. when asked. i don't think it usually works, though I will qualify that-- when it does work, it's not always what people intended. One partner has gained and consolidated tremendous power as 'fixer.' He or she also has learned to hold emotions in check, not get angry, etc., since that wouldn't be 'therapeutic' (as you recount, in getting past anger.) The other has learned to relish being very demanding, and having allowances made and 'never having to say you're sorry.' Also to equate being looked after with being loved.

'fixing' includes offering therapy or counselling.

rolling all this under a 'bdsm' umbrella seems unlikely to affect the basic issue of giving therapy to ones partner.

---

to our brilliant marquis, who opined,


You see, something that is very confusing about BDSM culture is the words we use. When we say Sadism and Masochism, we are using them in a context that almost invalidates their meaning. It took me pathetically long to figure this out, if I have yet, but Sadism in a BDSM context refers to inverted masochism. Likewise, Masochism refers to inverted sadism. The masochist revels in the sadistic pleasure her partner extracts from him/her and vice versa.

that is a fine posting, and i think the first main point is correct. you can't tell the influence, if any, of 'history,' in these sorts of situations. it's a bit like the old problem of looking a 'hard drug' users' history, and trying the infer the *effects* of soft drug use, which is commonly found in the histories.

a comment on the para above: i think you're onto something basic, but there is a problem of regress. suppose, as an analogy, you see a relationship where A is apparently the'giver' and B, the receiver.

You then tell me (let's say, having done therapy with both): "A doesn't do much enjoy giving as seeing the pleasure of the receiver, receiving." However you also tell me, "B does not so much enjoy receiving as seeing the pleasure of the giver, in giving."

Sort of like two people at a movie that's not particularly good, but it's their first date, and each makes signs of enjoyment so that the other will enjoy the partner's enjoyment of date.

without rambling: just as masochism {Krafft Ebbing or DSM style} does not complement sadism, 'inverted masochism' cannot complement 'inverted sadism.'
in my humble and deranged pov.

 

[Marquis]

You then tell me (let's say, having done therapy with both): "A doesn't do much enjoy giving as seeing the pleasure of the receiver, receiving." However you also tell me, "B does not so much enjoy receiving as seeing the pleasure of the giver, in giving."

Sort of like two people at a movie that's not particularly good, but it's their first date, and each makes signs of enjoyment so that the other will enjoy the partner's enjoyment of date.

without rambling: just as masochism {Krafft Ebbing or DSM style} does not complement sadism, 'inverted masochism' cannot complement 'inverted sadism.'
in my humble and deranged pov.

Without getting into an argument of logic, I will say that BDSM scenarios that are analogous to the bad movie situation that you describe are probably common occurrences. Although a desire to fit a particular role can give a relationship a positive start, if there is a mismatch of needs it will eventually become apparent.

You can smile and say "Isn't this a great movie babe?" "Excellent, cutie." But how long do you keep up the pretenses before it becomes obviously misguided? Do you discuss how much you love the actors over dinner? How well the film was directed, and that you must now both read the book it was based on?

At some point the couple will realize they are better off watching movies they both genuinely like, if they even like the same movies.

Of course, the opposite also occurs. True relationships are built under the auspices of less noble partnerships. Pretty Woman seems like an unlikely story, but it is probably more common than we might think.

 

[jasonlf]

When we say Sadism and Masochism, we are using them in a context that almost invalidates their meaning. It took me pathetically long to figure this out, if I have yet, but Sadism in a BDSM context refers to inverted masochism. Likewise, Masochism refers to inverted sadism. The masochist revels in the sadistic pleasure her partner extracts from him/her and vice versa.

You know, that explains a lot. I never LIKE causing pain, I like seeing my SO/pyl love the pain...

Marquis++, that's brilliant

 

[applesgreen]

Thanks for the response, I do appreciate it. I printed the thread and tacked it to the wall. To answer some of the questions--

"It's not so good to get roped into being someone's therapist when you live with them and are sexually involved."
-Netzach
I'd like to think that I could be her therapist because I love her, and that love serves as therapy. I know better, though. I'm not impartial when it directly affects me, not the right person to open up to on this one.

"There is genuine submission and there is the inability to deal with life"
-Quint
I agree. With her I think both are present, in abundance.

"...do you have the common sense not to try?"
-pandoravampire
Honestly, no. What starts as advice and helping her gain a little insight can work its way into therapy. I want her to feel open to share her experiences, and I want to offer advice. I probably overstep when I voice my conclusions to her.
When I first started suspecting that she'd been abused I read two books on the subject a few years ago. I've taken psych 101. That's the sum of my knowledge, and I don't pretend to understand all I'd need to offer real help. I also don't pretend to believe that even if I did know enough I should be the one to help her.

"BDSM might seem like a cure to her, but it could just be a distraction. The fact that she has taken to submission so quickly and thoroughly suggests manic enthusiasm, or a kind of desperation."
"So why are you still involved (and living?) with her?"
-Tollo
She’s desperate to be distracted, I'd guess Apparently she's good at forgetting, and seeing as how recent events are painful, I doubt she wants to think about herself. Focusing on submission allows her to focus on me and leave those worries. The journaling exercise is specific to reflections on the past, so that she can't simply forget. Unfortunately, thirty minutes of journalizing isn't enough.
I love her, much as I'm not sure that it's healthy I do. I've never been a good poker player, I never fold. It's also easy to stick when she's made promises and improvement.

"My point is, it sounds to me very much like your partner is seeking a D/s relationship because it feeds certain of her needs. But I also suspect very strongly, based on the self-destructiveness of the behavior that you describe, that she has a long way to go in healing from her abused past. What D/s offers her right now is a way to abdicate responsibility for her own health, safety, and emotional well-being, dumping it instead on a dominant."
"If this is the case here, you're dealing with a very damaged 9-year-old in the body of a grown woman."
-Jay Davis
I agree, couldn't say it better.
The halted development bit is one I've thought about and shared with her, too. Also interesting, is that while she has only taken small steps in the journey of reconciling this experience, she's reforming her identity and trying to gain years of development in terms of months. She swallows everything that much faster. It would be a good time for therapy.

"What I know is this: I was not responsible for what happened to me, but I am responsible for how I react to it."
-graceanne
I agree. That was one of the first conversations I had with her.

"when it does work, it's not always what people intended"
-Pure
I'll keep this in mind.

Marquis, I'd respond, but I'm still not sure where to begin. Give me a couple days to think it over. Well written and a hell of a read.

You guys wrote me the book I was looking to read. Good stuff.

A few thoughts--
While this level of submission is likely a shelter for her self-destruction, and a product of her past, she has always been submissive. Quite a bit submissive really, telling me in the past that she loves to please me more than herself, that she always knew I would take care of her.

I told her that her decisions on submission needed to be made as objectively as possible. Last night, after posting this, I did a Q and A with her and what she was looking for. I visited a few sites found from these forums and solicited her thoughts. Two things are clear; she's interested in what I would consider serious play (asphyxia, for example), and doesn't want to set boundaries because she trusts me. I’m sure this doesn’t sound good.

My plan of action is to keep things light while she finds a new therapist, who will likely suggest we not pursue this avenue. Gee, right when I was starting to get interested . The decision needs to be made for her. As always, all shared thoughts valued.

 

[Matadore]

She is intelligent enough to keep up with you. If you have fun together, then the relationship that you have may be the way out (chance for a cure and recovery) for her. It sounds like she is willing to settle for just being kinky and not looking for a way to "off herself" w/o it being obvious. She would likely benefit from being institutionalized for a short term. She could do this with your support (instead of having her maintain her own apartment).

 

[Tollo]

Your commitment to this relationship is commendable, for both of you, I just hope that it is not a mistake. By the way, if you do play poker, you'd better learn when to fold, otherwise you won't be in the game long.

Your question definitely struck a chord with a few of us. For my part, I could see certain aspects of my own relationship in what you described. My sub has her own demons to wrestle and these do affect our relationship as D and s. I believe the structure that I, as a dominant, provide for A. is good for her in ways that go far beyond D/s. You mention that you have your girlfriend journal each day, this is something that I try to do as well. I find that the issues that confront me as I attempt to be a good Dom are just too complex to keep track of in any other way.

Personally I am uneasy with the idea of trying to address my sub's particular issues directly through D/s. Partly this is because I feel that really she must find the strength within herself to make the changes that she needs, and also because I simply do not think that it would work for her anyway. To my thinking, it would be sort of like trying to make an alcoholic sub stop drinking simply by saying "you may not drink alcohol!". Anyone who thinks that this would cure alcoholism is sadly naive, or else that is one sub that I would like to meet. Instead I hold to the belief that A. grows stronger through her submission, and that because of this, in time, she may well feel able to put her fears aside and to move on. Hell, I guess we could both use a little of that.

I hope that things work out for you. Keep us informed on how things go.

Take it easy, but take it.

Tollo.

 

[Marquis]

By the way, if you do play poker, you'd better learn when to fold, otherwise you won't be in the game long.

Word.

 

[Jay Davis]

Upon further thought, I'm going to go out on a limb here. BDSM play with this woman fails the "C" part of the SSC test. Based on what I've heard, she's not healthy enough to give informed, responsibly-considered consent regarding BDSM play. She's not yet ready to handle this kind of play, no matter how good it feels for her; if you push ahead now, she will become addicted to BDSM play for it's negative, self-destructive potential, rather than for any true intimacy it offers her with a partner.

I don't doubt for a minute that her submissive sexuality is so deeply ingrained that it can never be removed or reversed. Even after years of therapy and healing, she's always going to respond sexually in a submissive manner. You can't "cure" someone of submissiveness anymore than you can "cure" them of being gay, or even straight, for that matter (and believe me, there are parts of New York where being straight is the aberrant sexuality! ). But that submissiveness is an indescribable danger to someone who isn't stable enough and confident enough to look after herself. It will drive her to seek relationships with people who will control her, but it will not allow her to make intelligent distinctions between a legitimate, compassionate Dominant, and an abusive, destructive asshole. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to imagine what could happen to her in the hands of an abuser.

But even if she lucks out and trips over a Dominant who is genuinely interested in her well-being, the result is still bad. She'll use that Dom as an excuse to hide from her problems, to avoid facing them and never heal from them. She'll hand over her paychecks, and expect him to manage her finances; she'll force him to schedule her haircuts, her dental appointments, her trips to the grocery store. Eventually, her demands will become so burdensome as to drive any legit Dom away. A D/s relationship is a true partnership between complementary souls; what she's trying to force you into is a caretaker/dependant relationship, in which you carry full responsibility not only for your own health and happiness, but hers as well.

My childhood wasn't a tenth as horrific as hers, and I didn't have a tenth as much healing to do. But I am telling you as a submissive who's walked at least a portion of the path she's facing, diving into a D/s relationship, especially one that extends beyond the bedroom, is the worst thing that can happen to her right now. She HAS to learn to take care of herself before she can trust anyone else to do it for her, even for an evening. I began to explore D/s relationships before I'd dealt with the damage I still carried from my childhood, and I found them to be heady, intoxicating, and almost certainly addictive. Under those circumstances, they are almost certain to be destructive. I was in the hands of a responsible Domme whom I believe sincerely cared about me, and who had extensive experience as a sub before embracing her Dominance. But even under the best of circumstances, as I was, I managed to become very scared about my ability to keep my sanity and identity while in a D/s relationship. So I pulled back, withdrew from relationships for a period of almost two years, and spent that time trying to heal that childhood damage, both on my own and with the help of a therapist.

The chance of her coming to physical harm through play is actually the least of my concerns. Much more dangerous is her stated desire, which I believe to be sincere and very powerful, to surrender control of the rest of her life as well. She wants you to function as her parent, taking care of her as if she were a child, assuming all responsibility for her safety and well-being. But consider this--the person who abused her, who caused this damage in the first place, was a parent. I fear that over time, as you accept more and more of the power she's forcing on you, she's going to come to fear and resent you for that very power. She may lash out at you, but more likely, she'll start misbehaving in secret as a rebellion against you; she's already demonstrated a willingness to do so in ways that not only put her in physical danger--unprotected sex with strangers; drugs--but put you, her partner, at risk too. Yet when you finally determine that for your own health and sanity, you have to pull out of the relationship, she will have become so dependant on you that she will most likely believe she can't live without you, which could easily lead to you being stalked or harmed, or her attempting suicide.

It is commendable that you care enough to try to help her, but the kind of help she's asking for is bad for her and for you. If you love her, help her to get professional help; try to put any romance, including D/s, on hold while she heals. You are both very young--you have decades to be together and to build whatever relationship fits the two of you, if that is what you find you want to do. But if you rush ahead now, romantically and/or as Dominant and submissive, I genuinely fear it will end badly. Perhaps very badly.

 

[Matadore]

Well put JD

I can't say any more any better on the subject of what can go wrong for this young sub.

What I haven't found is mention of motivation by the Dom. He touches on it, he flirts around the perimeter, he looks at her from the point of view of how he can help her. I would timidly suggest that he needs to examine more deeply his own reasons and needs before he commits to putting her life into order.

Maybe he can sense a need to loosen up himself and let someone else assume some of his burden?

Just a thought. Perhaps quite off the mark, but still worth exploring.

Either way, my heart goes out to them both.

 

[Private_Label]

Well put JD

I can't say any more any better on the subject of what can go wrong for this young sub.

What I haven't found is mention of motivation by the Dom.
...Maybe he can sense a need to loosen up himself and let someone else assume some of his burden?

Applesgreen, I haven't been involved in an abuse situation like that which you have described for your friend and yourself, but I can recognize the *want to help* thoughts.

All I can add to this discussion, is after allowing people I was close to take advantage of my assistance (it ended up costing me financially in the long run by trying to help them stay afloat by renting a house with them - no sex was involved) I finally had to learn to say no. I will drive people to interviews, and doctor appointments, but I found out that many people can be given information, but very few of them use it to get out of the hole they have dug for themselves. Your friend didn't dig her hole, but it looks like (from my point of limited view) she is wanting you to do the hard part of the work to get her out of the hole.

It is very noble of you to want to help - but if you do too much - as others have said, she might end up resenting you in the long run. I would add, after a while, you may end up resenting being the one who has to "fix" all her problems. Love can help heal, but there are times when surgery is needed - and if you aren't a skilled surgeon, you should not be operating. Wanting to be there and be her emotional support is good, but putting a band-aide on a place that is cut deep and wide enough to need a skin graft and stitches - the band-aide will only hide the festering wound and make it a lot worse.

If she had cancer, or heart disease, or pick your medical illness - would you try to treat her on your own or would you tell her to go to the people who have the knowledge and resources to help find a cure? Think of this as being no different then that. You understand the mental stress she is under, it will be a good thing in someone who is her friend and emotional support. If she needs you to go with her to see the therapist, to give her the strength she needs to speak, you can go with her and sit in the waiting room while she talks to the doctor.

OK, I've probably said too much already, so I will stop now.

 

[Jay Davis]

Applesgreen, I haven't been involved in an abuse situation like that which you have described for your friend and yourself, but I can recognize the *want to help* thoughts.

All I can add to this discussion, is after allowing people I was close to take advantage of my assistance (it ended up costing me financially in the long run by trying to help them stay afloat by renting a house with them - no sex was involved) I finally had to learn to say no. I will drive people to interviews, and doctor appointments, but I found out that many people can be given information, but very few of them use it to get out of the hole they have dug for themselves. Your friend didn't dig her hole, but it looks like (from my point of limited view) she is wanting you to do the hard part of the work to get her out of the hole.

It is very noble of you to want to help - but if you do too much - as others have said, she might end up resenting you in the long run. I would add, after a while, you may end up resenting being the one who has to "fix" all her problems. Love can help heal, but there are times when surgery is needed - and if you aren't a skilled surgeon, you should not be operating. Wanting to be there and be her emotional support is good, but putting a band-aide on a place that is cut deep and wide enough to need a skin graft and stitches - the band-aide will only hide the festering wound and make it a lot worse.

If she had cancer, or heart disease, or pick your medical illness - would you try to treat her on your own or would you tell her to go to the people who have the knowledge and resources to help find a cure? Think of this as being no different then that. You understand the mental stress she is under, it will be a good thing in someone who is her friend and emotional support. If she needs you to go with her to see the therapist, to give her the strength she needs to speak, you can go with her and sit in the waiting room while she talks to the doctor.

OK, I've probably said too much already, so I will stop now.

I agree with PL on every point but one. I don't think the young lady in question is asking Apples to "to do the hard part of the work to get her out of the hole." She's asking him to make her dysfunction warm and fuzzy and safe and comfy. She doesn't seem to want to heal, she seems to want him to make her illness more pleasant.

The cancer/heart disease metaphor is very apt, though. This girl has problems that require help and care from highly-skilled, trained professionals. The best a caring amateur could hope for would be to hold her together long enough to get her to those professionals. Anything more than that would be practicing medicine without a license, and I think I mean that in a literal sense.

 

[Summer_Jasmine]

Please, help her to get healthy before you embark on this journey.

For everyone health (mental and physical) can be something different - for me it is getting out an abusive and horrible marriage, for her it could be gaining some type of control over her own life. I encourage you to help her find a therapist that does work for her. I have had my fair share of bad therapists (and truly haven't found the right one for me yet...) but, when she does find the right therapist she will be able to work through these issues and together you can define the relationship that is right for both of you.

I think she is hiding by asking you to embark upon this relationship before she gets herself healthy. To relinquish control without ever having it yourself seems dangerous to me.

 

[applesgreen]

Jesus, how is everyone here so smart.

We're looking into therapists at the moment. Money is tight, and discounted services might be the way we go. Last night we bought "Outgrowing the Pain" and "Stolen Innocence." I plan on reading them with her, I'm curious, too. Thanks for sharing.