Advanced civilization + brutality.

[Betticus]

I'm watching a history channel show on the ancient mayans. The narrator mentions their genius with engineering, mathematics, astronomy, etc.. and then he talks about their brutality in warfare, human sacrifices and basic inhumanity.

It seems to me that every civilization that reaches a high level of advancement has similar practices. It seems that the ladder to success is made of bodies of the fallen.

It also appears that the population density of the advanced culture vs. loss of life through war, sacrifice, cruelty tracks closely together. They said that the height of Mayan killing was also the point where their population density was highest and that their ability to sustain those numbers was being stretched.

So now, with the world population over six billion it seems that we are overdue for a massive war with all of the horrors that are associated with it. Perhaps in the very near future we will surpass all of the sins of the past with an explosion of and celebration of the very worst of human behaviour.

 

[sethp]

I'm watching a history channel show on the ancient mayans. The narrator mentions their genius with engineering, mathematics, astronomy, etc.. and then he talks about their brutality in warfare, human sacrifices and basic inhumanity.

It seems to me that every civilization that reaches a high level of advancement has similar practices. It seems that the ladder to success is made of bodies of the fallen.

I agree to a degree, but...take the USA, Great Britan, China, Russia, France to name 5 examples. All 5 seem to be getting less brutal and militaristic and in the cases of Russia and China, the embracing of Capitalism and technology are changing the governments even and making them less hardline then they were just a few decades ago.

Sure there is a surge in Caged fighting-especially in the USA, and we have the war in IRAQ and China still brutally supresses protests, and Russia can still be extremely violent in certain aspects....but if you step back and look at the bigger picture, you'll find that the countries that have the best quality of life are the least violent and the countries with the worst quality of life are the most violent. (think Rawanda, Sudan, Darfur, Afghanistan etc)

 

[Betticus]

I'm thinking that it's a combination of human nature (predator), hardship and opportunity.

If you and a total stranger were in the forest, each armed with a Colt .45 pistol, loaded and ready to go. You meet in a clearing and in the middle of this clearing is a lamp with a genie in it and she promises you both that whoever claims that lamp will have their every wish........... (fairy tale, I know but bear with me)

It's you and this stranger and only one of you gets the lamp, the other will have to continue to struggle just to survive.

What happens?

 

[kittenartist]

I'm thinking that it's a combination of human nature (predator), hardship and opportunity.

If you and a total stranger were in the forest, each armed with a Colt .45 pistol, loaded and ready to go. You meet in a clearing and in the middle of this clearing is a lamp with a genie in it and she promises you both that whoever claims that lamp will have their every wish........... (fairy tale, I know but bear with me)

It's you and this stranger and only one of you gets the lamp, the other will have to continue to struggle just to survive.

What happens?

Couldn't you just phrase the wishes so that both get what they need... Say, person A gets the genie so they say, "I wish we had...." Or wish for another genie. But then that gets into all the genie rules and trying to find loopholes...

Going back to your first post. I remember a very interesting study done on rats and population density. Basically, they put more rats than the controlled environment could handle. Finite space, resources, etc etc. The rats started displaying interesting behaviors -- random violence/killing, mother's neglecting their young, and homosexuality. All things that, technically, will reduce the population over time. All things we see in the world today. Coincidence? Maybe. I actually own rats and I see all those things in small groups too. Usually due to bad breeding. Except the homosexuality -- when a female is in heat she just does not care about gender

That really has nothing to do with anything but it popped in my head so I figured I'd share *shrugs*

 

[Betticus]

Couldn't you just phrase the wishes so that both get what they need... Say, person A gets the genie so they say, "I wish we had...." Or wish for another genie. But then that gets into all the genie rules and trying to find loopholes...

Lemme rephrase...

Two alpha male doms...

 

[kittenartist]

Lemme rephrase...

Two alpha male doms...

Are you saying that two alpha male doms cannot be reasonable and share the bounty? Or, is it that neither would want the other to have absolute control of the genie and thus the wishes...?

I get the point you are trying to make -- I am just being ornery.

 

[Netzach]

Well, all in all I think that some corners of the world have seen less violence than prior - I mean a full on Jacobean Reign of Terror thing isn't likely to happen up my street this week.

 

[Betticus]

Are you saying that two alpha male doms cannot be reasonable and share the bounty? Or, is it that neither would want the other to have absolute control of the genie and thus the wishes...?

I get the point you are trying to make -- I am just being ornery.

Ok, re-read what you just said.....

 

[Betticus]

Well, all in all I think that some corners of the world have seen less violence than prior - I mean a full on Jacobean Reign of Terror thing isn't likely to happen up my street this week.

True, I have no plans to be wandering up your street any time soon.

Something about being that close to the north pole.

 

[YourCaptor]

They Mayans are distinctive from other cultures that made blood holy in that they left behind information on the purpose of sacrificing. Unfortunately the Mayan writing system is so complex it has yet to be cracked.

From what we do know, the Mayans believed in sacrificial ways to such an extent it is almost certain they did not see it as cruel.

When the Spanish invaded their land, one of the reasons the Mayans where defeated so easily is because the Mayans sacrificed all their greatest warriors. If that doesn't require total faith and unflinching belief I don't know what does.

 

[the_mgp]

Personally, I don't believe that there is a corellation between the advancement of a civilisation and how brutal/cruel they are. I believe that inherrantly, humans are pretty fucked up and cruel to start off with. I know this is a pretty pessimistic way to view the world, but I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

[Betticus]

Good point there, perhaps with a higher level of civilization the documentation of atrocities is just better.

 

[minx1]

It seems to me that every civilization that reaches a high level of advancement has similar practices. It seems that the ladder to success is made of bodies of the fallen.

So now, with the world population over six billion it seems that we are overdue for a massive war with all of the horrors that are associated with it. Perhaps in the very near future we will surpass all of the sins of the past with an explosion of and celebration of the very worst of human behaviour.

Didn't we just have one (or rather still having one)??

I'm sure if we had held on to Bush and Blair, the possibilities would be endless....



oops did I just say that? I know, i know......go stand in the corner

 

[a_caged_cock]

It’s an interesting observation Betticus, one I’ve discussed a few times among friends.

I personally have come to the conclusion that we can’t draw a straight line between all advanced cultures and brutality, because of the simple fact that the conqueror always gets to write the history. I don’t think the ladder to success is made up of the bodies of the fallen; only the recorded ladder of success is. It’s a situation similar to trying to determine the average IQ of criminals by testing a prison population. The problem with the study is, only the criminals who are caught are tested.

The scenario about the two alpha males with Colt .45s and one genie is interesting, especially if you add a twist. Suppose each is the leader of a higher civilization. One alpha male says to the other: “I will gladly fight you to the death so my people can have this genie.”

The other alpha male says, “I will walk away and allow you to have the genie, because I am confident there is nothing the genie can give to my people which we don’t already have.”

Who would you want as your leader? Which represents the higher civilization?

 

[subbie_333]

The scenario about the two alpha males with Colt .45s and one genie is interesting, especially if you add a twist. Suppose each is the leader of a higher civilization. One alpha male says to the other: “I will gladly fight you to the death so my people can have this genie.”

The other alpha male says, “I will walk away and allow you to have the genie, because I am confident there is nothing the genie can give to my people which we don’t already have.”

Who would you want as your leader? Which represents the higher civilization?

At first blush, i think i would take the dead alpha male (insert your favorite FemDom joke here) who gives us the genie. How many times in history has a civilization believed they had everything they ever needed, and, then made advancements? How many times in history has a civilization been inquisitive and gotten better because of new things brought into the civilization?

 

[Netzach]

I'm thinking that it's a combination of human nature (predator), hardship and opportunity.

If you and a total stranger were in the forest, each armed with a Colt .45 pistol, loaded and ready to go. You meet in a clearing and in the middle of this clearing is a lamp with a genie in it and she promises you both that whoever claims that lamp will have their every wish........... (fairy tale, I know but bear with me)

It's you and this stranger and only one of you gets the lamp, the other will have to continue to struggle just to survive.

What happens?

I think, shit, where were my psych meds again? And I'd probably start shooting the genie. How many times has a beautiful woman with supernatural promises ever been a good thing by the end of the story?

 

[subbie_333]

How many times has a beautiful woman with supernatural promises ever been a good thing by the end of the story?

How long to You have for me to tell You about my fantasies?!?!?!?!