Active and Passive Male Characters

[Bramblethorn]

Ah, I was gonna ask about that, but from your previous comments as someone with experience on this site, I kinda already suspected that's the case.

Erotic literature is traditionally considered a somewhat "feminine" domain. With that, I would have expected, perhaps naively, most of our community to be women, or at the very least a rough 50/50 ratio (among the binary demographic).

But you're basically confirming lit has been "overrun by men" (and thus features predominantly male fantasies?).

General musing possibly worth its own thread:
Do we feel that's an inevitable sort of trend, with a project like this?

There's a post here on the demographics of Literotica. It's almost ten years old now, and it depends on people's profile data which of course is not 100% reliable, but it may still be informative.

According to that post, 33% of Literotica authors identified themselves as female vs. 44% male and 23% various other options/no reply. If one takes that at face value, it's a bit skewed to male but not hugely so, and some of the individual categories were pretty close to parity (BDSM, Interracial, Romance, Toys/Masturbation) with Lesbian and Non-Human being majority female authors.

Some guys do represent themselves as women, maybe for flirting purposes, maybe because they think their stories will be better received. OTOH it's quite common in some areas of the internet for women to adopt neutral/male identities to avoid harassment. I don't think any of us knows for sure how those two factors weigh up against one another.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Ah, I was gonna ask about that, but from your previous comments as someone with experience on this site, I kinda already suspected that's the case.

Erotic literature is traditionally considered a somewhat "feminine" domain. With that, I would have expected, perhaps naively, most of our community to be women, or at the very least a rough 50/50 ratio (among the binary demographic).

But you're basically confirming lit has been "overrun by men" (and thus features predominantly male fantasies?).

General musing possibly worth its own thread:
Do we feel that's an inevitable sort of trend, with a project like this?

There is no confirmation, that is one person's speculation based on their prejudices.
It's been discussed here several times during my tenure, no one really knows what the demographics of this place are for writers or readers.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

My guys are not a whole lot more than props for the ladies to play with and use for their own entertainment.

The ladies are over the top outrageously, stupendously, (unrealistically) gorgeous with perfect centerfold type (after airbrushing) bodies who are successful in business, strong willed, confident and able to do anything they wish. They're also exceptionally kind, loving, caring and attentive.

In other words, both are total bunk and simply do not exist in real life.

 

[AG31]

The majority of writers on lit are men. Let's be real, a good many of the female writers on lit are actually men pretending to be women (and there's nothing wrong with that). There aren't many male accounts that are women secretly pretending to be men. So the actual male writers is much more than half.

Ah, I was gonna ask about that, but from your previous comments as someone with experience on this site, I kinda already suspected that's the case.

How do you know when a Lit member is pretending to be another sex? Just curious here.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

How do you know when a Lit member is pretending to be another sex? Just curious here.

There are signs. If I said some of them out loud I might be outing some people here so I won't (since there is nothing wrong with pretending to be a different gender on an anonymous forum like this). Also, these signs are much more clear in chat than on the forum, but from seeing them so often in chat I can spot the same things in the profiles of people on the forum fairly often. Now, these signs are never 100% sure, but when someone shows multiple signs, one can be 90% sure. So if we take ten 'suspicious' female profiles, we cannot prove than any of them really are dudes in disguise but really what are the chances that none of them are dudes? Hardly likely. What are the chances that half of them are dudes? Pretty good. What are the chances that eight or nine of them are dudes? Quite likely, or an order of magnitude more likely than none, so yea, they definitely exist.

 

[SamBomb]

Most of my stories have a mix of passive and active men. Variety is the spice of life and adds the most interesting scenarios.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Writing isn't about what gender we are; it is about writing a story that appeals to an audience, which isn't about what gender they are. I write for myself and have a small following of fans. I'm perfectly comfortable with that. I am selling some stories that help feed Cat the cat. I write under a pen name; my first name in my pen is my first name, and the last name of the pen name is a nickname. I don't know who's an actual female and who's a female. We could write a Who's Who of who isn't who they say they are and doesn't change their writing, doesn't change the attitudes they exhibit here, and doesn't matter a tinkers damn.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Writing isn't about what gender we are; it is about writing a story that appeals to an audience, which isn't about what gender they are.

Actually, if you are writing to appeal to an audience, gender is a huge deal. There are writers who are trying to appeal primarily to straight dudes. There are writers who are primarily trying to appeal to women. There are writers who are primarily trying to appeal to lesbians. There are writers primarily trying to appeal to transgenders, etc, etc, etc.

Even if you believe that you do not have to be the gender of the audience that you are trying to appeal to (which I would definitely include myself in that group), don't kid yourself about it. Certainly any gender can write for any other, but it takes some skill and some observation to pull it off convincingly, so the gender does matter. Just look at the lesbian stories that are certainly written by men in disguise because the story is actually just girl-on-girl and actual lesbians can tell fairly easily most of the time.

And there's nothing wrong with any of this. I'm not being judgmental in that way, but why do you think that every so often there is a thread here in the AH where someone asks how to write characters for opposite genders? Because the author's gender is a factor, especially the lower the skill. The higher the skills, the less gender is a factor. I always applaud such threads because it shows a willingness and desire of writers to broaden their skills and hone their craft.

 

[AG31]

There's a post here on the demographics of Literotica.

Thanks! This was a fun skim.

 

[burgwad]

Back to Activity v. Passivity. I could see myself someday writing an assertive, “jumpable” MC with a heart of gold who knows how to ask for what he wants. But shit, what a tricky tightrope, making sure he comes off as assertive and self-confident but never predatory or narcissistic. And even if I clear that bar, there’s still the challenge of keeping him likable and interesting to the reader. How do I give an ubermensch a relatable character arc? What character developments are in-bounds? How do I make someone charming and confident and successful someone readers want to root for, rather than watch crash and burn?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Back to Activity v. Passivity. I could see myself someday writing an assertive, “jumpable” MC with a heart of gold who knows how to ask for what he wants. But shit, what a tricky tightrope, making sure he comes off as assertive and self-confident but never predatory or narcissistic. And even if I clear that bar, there’s still the challenge of keeping him likable and interesting to the reader. How do I give an ubermensch a relatable character arc? What character developments are in-bounds? How do I make someone charming and confident and successful someone readers want to root for, rather than watch crash and burn?

Readers seem to have no trouble rooting for guys who want to fuck their Moms, Moms who want to fuck their sons, spouses who cheat on their spouses and women who want to be raped, so I wouldn't stress so much over making your character perfectly stainless likeable.

 

[MillieDynamite]

As I have repeatedly stated on this site, I write to please myself. If anyone likes the story, that's great. If everyone hates it, oh, well, what the hell, that's fine as well. Trying to please everyone means losing who you are. Trying to produce work that men will fawn over or women will praise you for isn't what I care about. I don't have the time, talent, or inclination to waste my time figuring out what trips either of sex's or myriad of gender's triggers. Write what interests me: dominant people of either sex and all genders, submissive in all, and I love to create a world that will touch them on some emotional level. Love or hate are equal responses. If I do that well, everything else works out.

Actually, if you are writing to appeal to an audience, gender is a huge deal. There are writers who are trying to appeal primarily to straight dudes. There are writers who are primarily trying to appeal to women. There are writers who are primarily trying to appeal to lesbians. There are writers primarily trying to appeal to transgenders, etc, etc, etc.

Even if you believe that you do not have to be the gender of the audience that you are trying to appeal to (which I would definitely include myself in that group), don't kid yourself about it. Certainly any gender can write for any other, but it takes some skill and some observation to pull it off convincingly, so the gender does matter. Just look at the lesbian stories that are certainly written by men in disguise because the story is actually just girl-on-girl and actual lesbians can tell fairly easily most of the time.

And there's nothing wrong with any of this. I'm not being judgmental in that way, but why do you think that every so often there is a thread here in the AH where someone asks how to write characters for opposite genders? Because the author's gender is a factor, especially the lower the skill. The higher the skills, the less gender is a factor. I always applaud such threads because it shows a willingness and desire of writers to broaden their skills and hone their craft.

 

[AG31]

As I have repeatedly stated on this site, I write to please myself. If anyone likes the story, that's great. If everyone hates it, oh, well, what the hell, that's fine as well. Trying to please everyone means losing who you are. Trying to produce work that men will fawn over or women will praise you for isn't what I care about. I don't have the time, talent, or inclination to waste my time figuring out what trips either of sex's or myriad of gender's triggers. Write what interests me: dominant people of either sex and all genders, submissive in all, and I love to create a world that will touch them on some emotional level. Love or hate are equal responses. If I do that well, everything else works out.

Me to.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

I started these last two on sort of a lark not really having a plan in mind and just let the words spill out. Both have similarities and were born out of a weird dream with the guys not really intended to be the key figures.

 

[ChuckWolf]

In most of my stories, the male protagonists are fairly good-looking submissive blank-slates with most of the attention/detail spent on the sexually aggressive/dominant female(s) in the story.

The one current exception is Eddy, the main character in my series The Making of Widow's Journey, who is a pretty well-adjusted young actor that is confident in his craft and with women, who has to engage in a type of "femdom chess game" with his lead co-star, who is in a position to make or break his career and, seemingly, uses that position to sexually humiliate and control him.

 

[AG31]

In most of my stories, the male protagonists are fairly good-looking submissive blank-slates with most of the attention/detail spent on the sexually aggressive/dominant female(s) in the story.

The one current exception is Eddy, the main character in my series The Making of Widow's Journey, who is a pretty well-adjusted young actor that is confident in his craft and with women, who has to engage in a type of "femdom chess game" with his lead co-star, who is in a position to make or break his career and, seemingly, uses that position to sexually humiliate and control him.

Love your avatar.

 

[ChuckWolf]

Love your avatar.

Thanks, not really an anime guy, but it's from one of those.

In the scene, the guy is strapped to a cross and emanating from that cross are hands caressing him and giving him an involuntary handjob.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

How do you know when a Lit member is pretending to be another sex? Just curious here.

You, for an instance, are a woman.
Emmanuelle's writer was a man. Easy.

 

[AG31]

You, for an instance, are a woman.
Emmanuelle's writer was a man. Easy.

My question was directed to @pink_silk_glove in response to this:

a good many of the female writers on lit are actually men pretending to be women (and there's nothing wrong with that).

 

[WeShallUnclench]

It has been a while, but I thought I'd share this gem of wisdom:

Discussing this general subject on another site, someone called it the 3-clit rule.

If you only read stories that contain the word "clitoris", or some variation, at least three times (more obviously if it's a long story/ novel), then you filter out almost all Horny Pixie Dream Girl x Passive Boring Boycharacter (even when it's only F/M stories).

I haven't tested it yet, though.

 

[TheRedChamber]

It has been a while, but I thought I'd share this gem of wisdom:

Discussing this general subject on another site, someone called it the 3-clit rule.

If you only read stories that contain the word "clitoris", or some variation, at least three times (more obviously if it's a long story/ novel), then you filter out almost all Horny Pixie Dream Girl x Passive Boring Boycharacter (even when it's only F/M stories).

I haven't tested it yet, though.

It took me a while to find any of my stories with the word 'clitoris' in it. I thought I'd found one but it turned out to be a character repeating the old joke about men not being able to find the clitoris. I was getting quite worried but luckily, of all my stories, my lesbian foursome just about meets your rule. So that's okay then.

I'm not sure why I don't use it more. Probably worth thinking about. I'd say it's not a very attractive word but that holds true for the nomenclature of a lot of body parts.

 

[TheLobster]

I'm not sure why I don't use it more. Probably worth thinking about.

Clitoris sounds too clinical to me. I use clit, nub, or bud, or some longer metaphor or other metonymy.

Amusingly, the filter that @WeShallUnclench mentioned would totally fail to reject my Summer Lovin story. It’s very much a Horny Pixie Dream Girl x Passive Boring Boycharacter, but it has a rather lengthy passage of cunnilingus and more than one mention of clit during the PiV sex scenes.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Very interesting discussion!

As a male author, I also usually (not always!) write my own fantasies, but for some reason I don't think I fantasize about women wanting me for no reason. Most of the MMCs of my characters are explicitly attractive to the female characters for specific reasons (depending on the story, some combination of physical appearance, personality or character traits, accomplishments and talents, and of course wealth or at least ambition). That aligns more closely to my own fantasy as well. I never merely wanted women to hook up with me, I wanted them to hook up with me because they liked me.

Also, back in my single days, I really enjoyed initiating things with women. I enjoyed saying hi to women I didn't know yet, enjoyed asking them out on a date, enjoyed going in for the first kiss, et cetera. Of course I never minded if they initiated things, but I always felt really good about myself if I successfully sensed that a woman was ready for me to take the next step. I think I approached it almost like a PUA (that did not exist back then as far as I know) not in the sense that I was trying to rack up numbers but in the sense that I wanted to be good at making women I liked feel good, so I took a lot of pride in paying attention to the signals women sent and figuring out what they might like me to do next. Of course there must have been a selection effect because women who didn't appreciate a guy who took the initiative so much probably sent me signals to get lost, but I didn't have too much trouble finding women who appreciated a guy putting himself out there. One woman called it "leadership" which I thought was interesting; I'm not 100% on board with that but I understand what she meant. Like leading a woman in a dance.

Even now, happily married, I definitely regard myself as the person primarily responsible for making sure my wife is happy with me and with our marriage, which implies some proactivity on my part, and it seems like as long as I do a good job of that (or at least make a sincere effort) she has always been happy to make sure I'm happy too....

But again, I acknowledge that I have some "toxic masculine" traits and not every woman would be thrilled to be in an intimate relationship with me. My MMCs are usually even more toxic!

 

[AG31]

or other metonymy.

Thanks for the new word!

 

[Tomh1966]

Just as a reminder: a huge chunk of Loving Wives IS romance for men. In these sort of "dude romances," the divorce/cheating happens at the beginning of the story and is the impetus for the protagonist to do things to improve his life, move forward, find someone new, etc.

There is actually a big thirst for those types of stories; however, romances in dude-focused books tend to be subplots rather than main plots; it shows up a lot in some types of sci-fi/fantasy/mystery/men's adventure.

Most "pure" romances for guys would look a lot different than ones for women, too, because... well, look at this thread. However, there is a plot for female-POV romance that is almost a one-to-one match for the type of dude romance that shows up in LW. "Found out my boyfriend/fiance/husband is cheating, pick myself up, dust myself off, move forward, meet a new guy who is rich/handsome/supportive/pick your posion, have a miscommunication about *thing* because of previous betrayal, make up, ride off into the sunset" is a classic chicklit romance... and it's almost exactly the plot of a solid 50-75% of the "marital drama" LW stories.

The "better woman" that the guy meets in these stories is usually a bit more down-to-earth in terms of "realism" (usually more like a slightly younger, attractive, and sexually available woman who's similarly been hurt rather than a billionaire supermodel), but the beats line up almost exactly. They're also, amusingly for an erotic site, lighter on explicit sex than most spicy romances meant for women.

There's a reason these things are so popular on YouTube, and it's not (just) misogyny. There is a market here, but as often happens, it's a market that no one can/does market to and/or one which no one has figured out how to make pay at a level necessary for publishing houses to weather the storm that will come with selling these stories.

ETA: Also, Double Fault was really good. Unrelated to point above.

Yep. Fall and Rise stories tend to do very well. Wife v2.0 does not even have to be younger and hotter if she clicks the 'loyal and easier to deal with' button.

Giving a man peace is sexy as hell.