Acceptable boundaries?

[geronimo_appleby]

I was prompted, rightly or wrongly dependant upon your point of view, to respond to a post on the incest thread. The gist of which is here

As a result I was wondering if the general feeling is that there are boundaries in what we write? Perhaps the understandably emotive issue of under-age persons being involved isn't the correct subject under which to raise this issue, but since I've stuck my neck out...

I would like to make it very clear right here that I do not support the actuality of under-age sex, just as the idea of rape makes my blood run cold, but I would be interested to find out anyone's views on the subject of boundaries in general.

Please, before responding, be aware that it is not my intent to offend anyone by this post. It is purely an objective exercise into authors' opinions.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I'm in the minority who agree with you, Geronimo... fantasy is fantasy. But I've gotten in trouble myself for saying it, so as Forrest says, "That's all I'm gonna say 'bout 'dat!"

 

[Recidiva]

This is tough for me and I've gotten huge amounts of flak from people regarding what is portrayed in "fiction" whether that's encouraging bad behavior.

Possibly.

But I'd much rather be free to portray things for an audience that can appreciate the exploration for its artistic and thoughtful value, than I would rather be where nobody thinks any evil. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil...taken a bit far.

Fantasy is where you're supposed to be free to explore without actually going there.

 

[oggbashan]

We accept the boundaries on Literotica - no sex under 18.

In the UK, sex (and marriage with parental consent) between consenting 16 year-olds is legal. Juliet was 13. I would have no problem writing about sex between 16 year-olds but I wouldn't post it on Literotica.

Sex between an adult and a child below the age of consent, whatever that age is in your state or country, is illegal and generally considered obnoxious by a majority of the population.

While a writer could write about sexually active youngsters and sexual abuse of young people the writer would have to be very careful about how it was presented. A crime novel about a paedophile would be acceptable, as would a social drama about abused children.

What I think would cross the line from permissible to unacceptable would be writing overt erotica about children. It could lead to prosecution of the author in some countries. Anything that seems to encourage paedophilia would be suspect.

That is only my opinion. In theory a writer can explore any subject and why not? The real decision to be made is 'Do I publish even as a post on the Internet?'

I would recommend thinking long and hard before exposing any writing that could lead to prosecution. Write for yourself if you want to - don't publish without competent legal advice.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

For me, I draw the line at encouraging lack of responsibility. I never want the reader to think I'm telling them, "Do what thou wilt. That shall be the whole of the law."

Even in my BDSM and Reluctance pieces the dominant is careful and restrained. Although many people dislike the idea, in spite of being dominant, the dominant character is acting as much for their submissive as for themselves.

In Abyss the antagonist was irresponsible, used her power no matter who got hurt. And felt no guilt about it. The protagonist was a monster, but an ethical monster. He was very careful about who he used his power on and how much. Most of the time. He felt guilty when he lost it.

I'll never write a piece where abuse of power and lack of responsibility is shown in a positive light.

Probably.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Juliet was 13.

Mary, mother of Jesus, is said by some scholars to have been 13 as well.

(damnit, glueing my mouth shut)

 

[geronimo_appleby]

I would recommend thinking long and hard before exposing any writing that could lead to prosecution. Write for yourself if you want to - don't publish without competent legal advice.

Og

I'm not thinking of it, Og. It was just the question of what's acceptable came to mind after reading the post on the incest thread.

 

[Antfarmer77]

I was prompted, rightly or wrongly dependant upon your point of view, to respond to a post on the incest thread. The gist of which is here

As a result I was wondering if the general feeling is that there are boundaries in what we write? Perhaps the understandably emotive issue of under-age persons being involved isn't the correct subject under which to raise this issue, but since I've stuck my neck out...

I would like to make it very clear right here that I do not support the actuality of under-age sex, just as the idea of rape makes my blood run cold, but I would be interested to find out anyone's views on the subject of boundaries in general.

Please, before responding, be aware that it is not my intent to offend anyone by this post. It is purely an objective exercise into authors' opinions.

I'm glad you started this thread, I've been trying for a week on how I'd word this very topic and couldn't phrase it as well as you have, so I chickened out. I feel that a story is just that, a story. A work of fiction should be view solely as that, fiction, not a 'how-to' guide or as an adoptable agenda, just light entertainment. I remember seeing an interview with Terry Gilliam of Monty Python and he was talking about the Funeral Parlor sketch and how it had been the most tasteless and at the same time the funniest thing he had ever seen at that time and he felt that any topic should be fair game in sketch comedy.
Personally, I don't read stories about topics that don't interest me, that way I'm never offended by them. I realize this is probably a poor analogy, but taking the debate from the "strictly entertainment" arena, why are murder mysteries totally acceptable but lets say beastialty stories are still taboo? Is one story so much more wrong than the other? You can't turn on a movie channel without seeing someone blasting away at someone else, but how many hot sex scenes have you seen between siblings? People aren't really killing each other in the movie it's a portrayl. The actors in an incest scene don't have to be real life family members, they could just play them in the film.

 

[matriarch]

A story is just a story........to a degree yes.
Personally, I could never write a story about rape, because its an action that completely and utterly revolts every fibre in my body. I would also never read a story about rape. For exactly the same reasons. To derive pleasure of any kind from such an abhorrent act, to me, is incomprehensible.

As for the under age thing.....we all know that kids as young as 12, 13 have sex, but again I'd have a problem portraying that, mainly because I couldn't get in the mind set to write it properly, and basically it doesn't interest me. *shrug*. If it doesn't interest me, I can't write about it.

 

[angela146]

I'm going to step out on a limb and say that I wish Literotica allowed for some types of stories about children.

It would allow me to write about adults who were abused when they were children and how the past abuse influences the life of the adult.

In other words, I could tell my own story.

Having said that, I respect Laurel's right to limit the sight in whatever way she chooses.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I think we ought fish or cut bait.

Either we agree that there are some subjects that ought not be represented and authority over that decision is to be handed to this or that people... or, speech is free, and that includes (especially in fiction) everything speakable.

I fall in the camp of people who wonder why we glad-hand a story about violence and rape... but pass a judgemental eye over a story about two teenagers (fourteen, fifteen, etc.) losing their virginity (which is how it happens, so often, no?). Why incest? Why mind-control, but not beastiality?

This is not a commentary on the site's operators and their rules... more of an abstraction of allowable and not.

Is free speech and creation the writing of a story about children that are beaten, starved, raped, carved up, and then eaten? Or is free speech necessarily moderated?

 

[English Lady]

In college, I took Communication Studies, and as part ofthat we studied censorship. It was interesting and of course the debate was should censorship exsist, and I think that's basically what we're talking about here.

Personally, I came to the ocnclusion that censorship was needed to protect those who cannot protect themseves, children etc and so I approved of the watershed and the classification of films because it's needed to at least try to protect the innocent.

So, as a part of that I'd say that writing is not just writing, and it needs to have boundaries to protect those who need to be protected. I don't think I can question a person's right to write what they want/need to but I can question them wanting to publish, share it with the public if it could cause harm.

Did any of that make sense?

 

[oggbashan]

There are two distinct subjects here:

1. What is allowed in Literotica. We should all follow the rules set by the owners of this site.

2. What is permissible in fiction. Anything is permissible no matter how disgusting, depraved, unhuman or vile the subject matter may be as long as it is fiction. There are many books in the public domain and many more still in copyright that cover revolting behaviour either as detective fiction, as fantasy or as horror.

Following on from 2 is what we, as amateur or semi-professional writers can do AND publish. If a book is to be published, the publishers will try to ensure that the book will not fall outside what is permissible by the laws of their country. For us, we do not have access to that expertise, nor the protection of corporate lawyers if we get it wrong.

We must understand that some countries, for religious or cultural reasons, do not recognise our definition of 'fiction' and therefore will take any publication at face value. A book that may seem to be completely innocuous in most Western countries could cause offence in other countries just by mentioning a taboo name or subject.

My conclusion is that we can explore any aspect of human behaviours BUT 1. We should obey Literotica's rules, and 2. If we want to publish elsewhere we should recognise that there are risks that could be financially or physically disastrous to us.

Og

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Either we agree that there are some subjects that ought not be represented and authority over that decision is to be handed to this or that people... or, speech is free, and that includes (especially in fiction) everything speakable.

Lolita could never be written today. No publisher would touch it.

(damnit, putting duct tape over the glue)

 

[MissBri]

 

[S-Des]

There was a similar thread a week ago or so about NC stories. My point was (and is), how is it completely permissable to have slasher movies where innocent men, women, and sometimes children are brutally murdered (and the more graphic the murder, the more money it makes), but a fantasy sex story is somehow encouraging someone to do something horrific? It's just frustrating to me. I can see English Lady's point about protecting people who can't protect themselves (especially in film where a real child would have to act).

There was a movie called Bastard Out Of Carolina where there was an awful scene of a stepfather raping a little girl (10 or 11 years old). It was very graphic and despite the intentions of the film, I thought putting a child through making that scene crossed a very big line (who's to say she won't be adversly affected just from the way it was filmed). I'm much more in favor of censoring that then some story. There are also 3D sights now where "virtual children" can be seen having sex (usually incestuous). I wouldn't be opposed to the censorship of any child's image being used that way (even animee). I doubt it will happen, but to me it's far worse than any story.

BTW, speaking of censorship, I was watching the director's comments from 'History Of Violence' (an outstanding movie) and Cronenberg said the 69 scene between Viggo Mortensen and Maria Bello is the first time that's been shown in a mainstream movie. Can you imagine how many times we've seen rapes, murders and general carnage, but it was too taboo to show a husband and wife making love the way most people do. It just makes me scratch my head.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

This subject was explored in great depth here:
Rant: When your own readers disgust you... https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=410259

The wise Shang in particular impressed me deeply with his profundity here.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I don't think there is anything inherently immoral about sex with minors in cases where the age difference is small - a 21 year old and 17 year old. When it's a 35 year old and 17 year old then you get into power and experience asymmetries that make the situation almost inherently exploitative, and thus immoral. And of course anything pre-pubescent is pure sicko.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

Thanks for the clarity of these responses, and for keeping it objective - especially angela146 for the objectivity angle there.

I am now fairly clear in my own mind about what moral stance I am going to take.

 

[kendo1]

This subject was explored in great depth here:
Rant: When your own readers disgust you... https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=410259

The wise Shang in particular impressed me deeply with his profundity here.

Good link RA.

Colly and Shang in one thread.

Ken

 

[Selena_Kitt]

BTW, speaking of censorship, I was watching the director's comments from 'History Of Violence' (an outstanding movie) and Cronenberg said the 69 scene between Viggo Mortensen and Maria Bello is the first time that's been shown in a mainstream movie.

I noticed that...it was strangely shocking to see it... even though you couldn't "see" anything really...

 

[Softouch911]

Speaking as a writer (of fiction or poetry), I prize boundaries, be they moral or legal or social (e.g., PC garbage). I prize them because I can't write without them. When I'm writing for publication (and not my journal), I'm writing for an audience whose values and ideas and emotional responses are conditioned by those boundaries -- society, after all, is what sets the boundary in place.

So, if I choose to outrage an audience, I know where and how far to go. If I want them to laugh, I have other choices available. If I want them horrified, I can look to other boundaries -- they're raw material in that way.

Recently (5 years or so) I've focused on BDSM writing. Certainly, for that audience, the boundaries are different than they are for the audience for prime time sitcoms, and for the audience of , maybe, romances. Yet, in a thread on the BDSM board here at Lit, under discussion is a movement among Romance publishers (mainstream) to use BDSM paraphernalia for romances intended for the supermarket audience -- now, surely, the "boundaries" for such writing will be more 'constrained' than the boundaries for me if I'm writing "hard core" BDSM, but in either case, I'd be doomed to haphazard personal tastes if it weren't for people so kindly setting up boundaries for me to bounce against.

I know the thread has chosen to deal with boundaries in the sense of personal morality, and as a human and a citizen I agree that is an important disucssion. Since the thread wanted to discuss the ramifications of boundaries for a writer, I thought I'd offer a little different perspective. I hope no one thinks this means I'm in favor of behavior that goes outside the boundaries set by the culture -- I am, but only for those who are willing to put up with the hassle they invite.

ST

 

[AchtungNight]

I put boundaries in my work all the time. I try to keep things realistic and neutral, with respect to all people and views. I also try to incorporate movies, trivia, and stuff of that nature (I write about celebs, so it's easy). Mostly, I keep to the bounds of what seems hot and right to me. As for other stuff, I comply with site rules and my disclaimers.

- AN

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Bit of a random blurt here: I wrote a lesbian BDSM story that was about a real "punishment," not a game. It was a non-consent kind of thing, with some qualifications. Naturally I'm such a softie that I had all the characters all lovey-dovey at the end, but the first part is pretty hardcore. It's posted on another site because I just don't know what to do with it on Lit. Whatever cat I put it in someone's going to be unhappy, and besides, it "clashes" with all my other stories here. So it remains an outcast.

 

[angela146]

Thanks for the clarity of these responses, and for keeping it objective - especially angela146 for the objectivity angle there.

I am now fairly clear in my own mind about what moral stance I am going to take.

You're welcome...