About that Muslim Brotherhood...

[4est_4est_Gump]

The Arab Spring is turning into an Islamic spring.

(Note: Turkey’s government, President Obama’s favorite Middle East regime and his main regional advisor, is part of that radical Islamist bloc.)

Haniya knows it. We know it. Why don’t Western governments, mass media, and “experts” understand what this means? It doesn’t mean a springtime for “Islam” as a “religion of peace,” but a springtime for political Islamism as being in power — imposing a very anti-Western, anti-Christian, anti-American, and radically intolerant interpretation of Islam on their countries.

In his official weekly message published on the official Brotherhood website, Muhammad al-Badi — official leader of what is officially the biggest political party and parliamentary vote-getter in Egypt — said that the Brotherhood will now begin the “long-term plan for the reform of all aspects of people’s lives.”

(Note: Why didn’t Barack and Michelle think of that phrase first?)

And soon, the Brotherhood’s supreme guide also explains, the caliphate will be restored. I don’t believe him, but the fact that he thinks so is significant. Why is the caliphate important? Well, one reason is that the caliph can supposedly declare an international jihad in which every Muslim must fight. I don’t believe that will happen either, and it didn’t work out well when the German-backed Ottoman caliph tried it in World War One. But it does convey something about the Brotherhood’s plans for the future.

To my knowledge, that statement by the supreme guide — an actual leader of hundreds of thousands of people backed by almost half of all Egyptians — has not been reported in any Western mass media outlet.

Al-Badi’s own formula is that Egypt will be “a just country” under “just rule,” which means his interpretation of Sharia. This brand of social justice includes death to converts from Islam, and the whole long list of such things.

Did I mention that almost half of all Egyptians voted for the Muslim Brotherhood, and that almost half of those who didn’t voted for an even more radical Islamist party?

Who would you expect the Western media to believe and publicize: the Muslim Brotherhood’s supreme guide, who disagrees with them about the nature of his own organization; or a student with no achievements whatsoever who agrees with the Western media?

What better proof could there be that we are being fed propaganda, and not news

http://pjmedia.com/barryrubin/2012/...slamists-moderate-israel-bad/?singlepage=true

 

[phrodeau]

Mohammed Badie is Sunni. "Death to converts from Islam, and the whole long list of such things" aren't part of his religion.

And PJ Media can't even spell his name right.

 

[EllieTalbot]

Mohammed Badie is Sunni. "Death to converts from Islam, and the whole long list of such things" aren't part of his religion.

And PJ Media can't even spell his name right.

Whoa-whoa-whoa, let's back up for a second there. Are you suggesting that the various schools of Sunni Islam don't codify the death penalty for apostates?

Making sure from Mecca,
Ellie

 

[mercury14]

Understood, he's not read anything that I can ascertain. Certainly nothing about Islam, and very little history in general. A typical product of the public school systems as they exist today.

Ishmael

You bailed out in record time when I held you accountable for your own hypocrisy, didn't you? Classic Ish... You just scramble to change the subject and launch personal attacks when your incoherent, muddled world view is exposed to a little daylight.

 

[phrodeau]

Whoa-whoa-whoa, let's back up for a second there. Are you suggesting that the various schools of Sunni Islam don't codify the death penalty for apostates?

Making sure from Mecca,
Ellie

You go make sure, and get back to me.

 

[Beco]

Damn, where's AJ? President Obama announced yesterday that the United States would now establish ties with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, seeing as they essentially won the election and all.

The Israeli press, naturally, is shitting their collective britches.

If they do declare war against Israel and negate the peace agreement that Carter brokered, don't bitch when Israel takes back the sinai peninsula.....

land for peace............what a joke!

 

[EllieTalbot]

You go make sure, and get back to me.

Don't be a doodyhead. You know very well that apostasy merits the death penalty in Sunni Islam. Salafis, for example, some of the most extreme Islamists around, are Sunnis.

Why would you lie about that?

Curious in Calgary,
Ellie

 

[phrodeau]

Don't be a doodyhead. You know very well that apostasy merits the death penalty in Sunni Islam. Salafis, for example, some of the most extreme Islamists around, are Sunnis.

Why would you lie about that?

Curious in Calgary,
Ellie

Why would you try to convince us that they kill their own? They aren't primitive savages, as you seem to think, and they live as we do, under the rule of law.

 

[EllieTalbot]

Why would you try to convince us that they kill their own? They aren't primitive savages, as you seem to think, and they live as we do, under the rule of law.

Convince you that they kill their own? What do you mean by that, seriously? Leaving the rest of your highly arguable statement aside, I point out that you didn't answer the question, and it wasn't rhetorical.

Why did you lie?

Wondering about Wahhabis,
Ellie

 

[patrick1]

We have no idea how the Muslim Brotherhood, through their political party, are going to behave when in power in Egypt.

Grabbing at stray quotes from leading members, (having traced the supposed quote back to source I don't think Baradie said quite what he's claimed to have said) or making wild inferences about 'Sunni Muslims' and the death penalty from some Sunni texts, are not going to improve our advance knowledge, though they may increase paranoia about Islam among Western non-Muslims.

As far as we can tell, Egypt and Tunisia are going to become more democratic places at least for the time being. One consequence of this is that they are likely to become more anti-Israel, and less compliant towards the USA and its allies. But we should remember that this is because of the growth of democracy.

Patrick

 

[Beco]

. One consequence of this is that they are likely to become more anti-Israel, and less compliant towards the USA and its allies. But we should remember that this is because of the growth of democracy.

Patrick

So lets cut off aid to Egypt.....let them go at it alone

 

[EllieTalbot]

We have no idea how the Muslim Brotherhood, through their political party, are going to behave when in power in Egypt.

Yes we do. The MB has routinely and openly stated that their goals are the institution of Sharia, abrogation of the treaty with Israel, and re-establishment of the caliphate. It's not a matter of "stray quotes."

Personally I think they have too much in-fighting to achieve the third goal, but the first two they'll probably get somewhere with.

or making wild inferences about 'Sunni Muslims' and the death penalty from some Sunni texts, are not going to improve our advance knowledge

There's nothing inferred or "wild" about it. It's a fact that's openly acknowledged by Islam's clerics and its critics. Whether that particular fact is going to have any bearing in Egypt has yet to be determined, really. We don't know how far they're going to get with Sharia implementation before the inevitable backlash.

though they may increase paranoia about Islam among Western non-Muslims.

Actually, what concerns me more about it is when Western non-Muslims will sit there and lie, saying such things aren't a part of the religion. They are. Then they say no real Muslims follow that kind of interpretation. But they do. Then they say the death penalty for apostasy isn't actually carried out in most Islamic countries. But it is - if not by the state, then by families and community members of the apostate, and the killings are overlooked by the state. Then they say you're blowing it out of proportion.

And the real kicker is that when you suggest supporting Muslims who are in favor of truly breaking away from the violent doctrines, they say, "Those aren't real Muslims."

My principle frustration in the whole issue isn't actually with Islam. The problems it presents can be dealt with rationally. There are tons of productive things one can do, and one of them, especially, is supporting reform-minded Muslim organizations that openly criticize violent Islamists whose interpretations dominate the religion. And the reason they do it is because they know firsthand better than anyone just how much sway the violent doctrines truly have. But it's almost impossible for those organizations to get anywhere when you have huge swaths of people who have swallowed Islamist propaganda so completely that they parrot out lies like "death for apostasy isn't part of the religion." Reasonable discourse is being completely sabotaged by supposedly liberal-minded, human-rights-loving individuals who side with the real oppressors.

As far as we can tell, Egypt and Tunisia are going to become more democratic places at least for the time being. One consequence of this is that they are likely to become more anti-Israel, and less compliant towards the USA and its allies. But we should remember that this is because of the growth of democracy.

Patrick

Oh yes. The anti-Israel sentiments are, as ever, quite ready to become official policy. As for democracy, let's hope it doesn't turn out to be the Hamas version: get elected, kill the opposition, and never have another election.

Turning in Tahrir,
Ellie

 

[webjock]

About That Muslim Brotherhood...

Your reading assignment http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1235

Still think the protests in Egypt are about freedom and democracy?

Thanks for being informative! I did not know that the MB was very much involved with what happened over there!

 

[mercury14]

Yes we do. The MB has routinely and openly stated that their goals are the institution of Sharia

The problem you keep having is that you appear to have a very unsophisticated view of Sharia Law and the role that it may play in government. Indonesia has an institutionalized Sharia Law system. They also have a constitution that protects its people's rights. There are many other nations where this is the case.

So what if Egypt ends up like Indonesia or Jordan?

There's nothing inferred or "wild" about it. It's a fact that's openly acknowledged by Islam's clerics and its critics.
Actually, what concerns me more about it is when Western non-Muslims will sit there and lie, saying such things aren't a part of the religion. They are. Then they say no real Muslims follow that kind of interpretation. But they do. Then they say the death penalty for apostasy isn't actually carried out in most Islamic countries. But it is - if not by the state, then by families and community members of the apostate, and the killings are overlooked by the state. Then they say you're blowing it out of proportion.

Yes I'm sure some Muslims kill those who leave the faith. But it tends to be in isolated, third-world areas, no? Or do you honestly believe that people are getting regularly murdered in Alexandria or Istanbul for converting?

You just made the claim that the death penalty for conversion is being carried out in "most" Islamic countries. Why don't you go ahead and provide some evidence that this goes on to a significant degree in most Muslim nations?

 

[EllieTalbot]

The problem you keep having is that you appear to have a very unsophisticated view of Sharia Law and the role that it may play in government. Indonesia has an institutionalized Sharia Law system. They also have a constitution that protects its people's rights. There are many other nations where this is the case.

So what if Egypt ends up like Indonesia or Jordan?




Yes I'm sure some Muslims kill those who leave the faith. But it tends to be in isolated, third-world areas, no? Or do you honestly believe that people are getting regularly murdered in Alexandria or Istanbul for converting?

You just made the claim that the death penalty for conversion is being carried out in "most" Islamic countries. Why don't you go ahead and provide some evidence that this goes on to a significant degree in most Muslim nations?

Merc, I told you some time ago that I have no intention of humoring your silly little demands on conversation. There's absolutely no reason for me to expect you to carry on a discussion honestly, and even what you say in earnest is patently hostile.

For example, you have no idea exactly what I understand about Sharia, but insinuate that I have what appears to be an "unsophisticated view of Sharia Law," which is rather ironic, because the word Sharia itself means "law," so you just said I had an unsophisticated view of Law Law. To be fair, many make the same mistake and unlike you some of them are actually intelligent and friendly, and it's common to hear even from Muslims in the west. I probably did that a few times myself, but I always find it funny coming from people who claim to have higher insight into Sharia and how it's applied in the Islamic world.

But I digress.

The point is, you will stick to a lie so vehemently that you'll use alts to propagate it, and shriek with demands for apologies from people calling you on your BS. You bully, harass and engage in character assassination when you can't defeat people's arguments on the merit of reason. And do you offer your own apology after you're caught? Nope. You get ten time worse.

As far as I can tell, you're incapable of progressive discourse. If someone reasonable had come along and asked for information about my statements, and given an indication they were actually interested in a real conversation about it, I would have happily fetched some. I've got plenty.

But you don't fit that description.

Bye from Bahrain,
Ellie

 

[Ishmael]

You bailed out in record time when I held you accountable for your own hypocrisy, didn't you? Classic Ish... You just scramble to change the subject and launch personal attacks when your incoherent, muddled world view is exposed to a little daylight.

You keep running your mouth concerning subjects of which you know nothing about.

There has been no new theological school of Islam since the 12th century. It hasn't changed at all. The scholars sit around and debate finer points of interpretation, but they are all coming from the same theological foundation that was laid down by al Ashari in the 10th century.

Neither of the two major sects of Islam, the Sunni and Shia, differ significantly in regard to non-Muslim peoples. Their differences are primarily among themselves.

The Muslim Brotherhood is almost 90 years old and there has been NO change in their charter or goals, they have merely adopted new tactics to suit existing temporal situations. To even contemplate that they do not mean exactly what they say is foolish in the extreme.

To reiterate, while there may be moderate Muslims, there is no such thing as moderate Islam. Those sects within Islam that might be considered 'moderate', the Suffi, Druze, and Alowhit, are relatively minor. (Some may argue that the Suffi are a major sect, but they are essentially a school of eastern influenced mysticism and are populated by many of the peoples of the major sects.) All of the minor sects are considered to be borderline apostate by the main stream scholars. Further a moderate Islam cannot exist without a major change in the mainstream theological school of thought and there is no sign of that occurring today, at least not in a form that has any chance of taking root.

Ishmael

 

[KingOrfeo]

Your reading assignment http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1235

Dude, that's one of David Horowitz' crankblogs. Even you should know better than to take him seriously.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Well, Egypt has just finished its first three rounds of elections to the lower house of parliament. MB's FJP leads; next come the radical Salafist Islamists, Al-Nour. (No, the MB are not the radicals here.)

There is no majority party. MB, which is really roughly equivalent to Europe's Christian Democrats, is shaping up to be the middle of Egyptian politics. From the middle they can ally with either end -- and must ally with someone to govern -- and they say they don't want to ally with Al-Nour. That leaves the secularist democrats at the other end.

 

[EllieTalbot]

Dude, that's one of David Horowitz' crankblogs. Even you should no better than to take him seriously.

Don't you have anything that actually debunks the information presented?

That always bugs me no matter which side is arguing; sneering at the source without saying why it's a bad source, and pretending that alone is an argument... without anything to contradict the information itself.

Essentially it's nothing more than a bullying tactic: "You're not cool if you use facts from sources we don't like, and we don't have to rationalize why we don't like them or refute their info. All we have to do is say we don't like them, and you should grovel for our forgiveness."

Disdainful in Denmark,
Ellie

 

[KingOrfeo]

Don't you have anything that actually debunks the information presented?

I have looked into DiscoverTheNetworks (and Horowitz) before, in depth; contemptuous dismissal is all it merits.

 

[EllieTalbot]

I have looked into DiscoverTheNetworks (and Horowitz) before, in depth; contemptuous dismissal is all it merits.

On what basis? You don't seem to understand... just because sourcewatch says it has political affiliations doesn't debunk it. Saying something isn't credible isn't enough. You have to actually contradict it with facts.

And you said nothing to contradict the information presented. There's no discrediting of facts here.

Are you suggesting that all we have to do is take your word for it without any proof whatsoever? If so, then that's a sure sign no one should take you seriously at all.

 

[Ishmael]

On what basis? You don't seem to understand... just because sourcewatch says it has political affiliations doesn't debunk it. Saying something isn't credible isn't enough. You have to actually contradict it with facts.

And you said nothing to contradict the information presented. There's no discrediting of facts here.

Are you suggesting that all we have to do is take your word for it without any proof whatsoever? If so, then that's a sure sign no one should take you seriously at all.

Had to quote this one, no Ellie signature at all.

Ishmael

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You go make sure, and get back to me.

Why don't you provide some corroboration other than your almighty omnipotent say-so...

Arabic has no fucking vowels. How many ways did they spell Momar's last name?



I award thee the Chamberlain award.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Had to quote this one, no Ellie signature at all.

Ishmael

Fuck, I was going to quote it...



Elvis in England.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Merc, I told you some time ago that I have no intention of humoring your silly little demands on conversation. There's absolutely no reason for me to expect you to carry on a discussion honestly, and even what you say in earnest is patently hostile.

For example, you have no idea exactly what I understand about Sharia, but insinuate that I have what appears to be an "unsophisticated view of Sharia Law," which is rather ironic, because the word Sharia itself means "law," so you just said I had an unsophisticated view of Law Law. To be fair, many make the same mistake and unlike you some of them are actually intelligent and friendly, and it's common to hear even from Muslims in the west. I probably did that a few times myself, but I always find it funny coming from people who claim to have higher insight into Sharia and how it's applied in the Islamic world.

But I digress.

The point is, you will stick to a lie so vehemently that you'll use alts to propagate it, and shriek with demands for apologies from people calling you on your BS. You bully, harass and engage in character assassination when you can't defeat people's arguments on the merit of reason. And do you offer your own apology after you're caught? Nope. You get ten time worse.

As far as I can tell, you're incapable of progressive discourse. If someone reasonable had come along and asked for information about my statements, and given an indication they were actually interested in a real conversation about it, I would have happily fetched some. I've got plenty.

But you don't fit that description.

Bye from Bahrain,
Ellie

I so wanted to quote this.


Elvis in Egypt